Towing out snowed in cars - a cautionary tale!

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> > Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
> > would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
> >
> > Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
> > extraction situation.
> >
> > Mike
>
> The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.
>
> My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah
>
>

..ca is not short for California.
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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Tuesday, in article
> <[email protected]>
> [email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:
>
> > > > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
> > >
> > > Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
> > > meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
> > frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
> > plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?
>
> Well, I'll stick to a Land Rover. But you might want to look at the
> products of an American company called John Deere. Or maybe
> Caterpillar.
>

Exactly, neither of which make a Geo Saturn or a nissan pickup truck
AFAIK.

> But why don't you explain just how you'd fasten that winch of yours to a
> vehicle you're trying to recover, whether you're using the snatch block
> or not.

You attach it to the frame or something directly bolted to the frame
like a winch mount or tire carrier bumper. If you can do that, STOP,
TAKE OUT YOUR CELL PHONE, CALL AT TOW TRUCK. Unless you are some god
damn redneck who wants to make a video for the internet.
--
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> You attach it to the frame or something directly bolted to the frame
> like a winch mount or tire carrier bumper. If you can do that, STOP,
^^^^^^^^^^ should say
can't!
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"David G. Bell" wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, in article
> <[email protected]>
> [email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:
>
> > > > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
> > >
> > > Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
> > > meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
> > frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
> > plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?
>
> Well, I'll stick to a Land Rover. But you might want to look at the
> products of an American company called John Deere. Or maybe
> Caterpillar.
>
> But why don't you explain just how you'd fasten that winch of yours to a
> vehicle you're trying to recover, whether you're using the snatch block
> or not.
>
> --

I don't know about him, but I have short straps that can wrap around a
frame to give an anchor point if the vehicle isn't equipped with a tow
hook or ring bolted to the frame. My long straps are rate for 30,000 lb
and I think the short ones are the same. My straps have sewn loops, no
metal to fire off.

I won't pull him if all there is is the tow ball. My straps will fit
almost anything. They gotta get muddy sometimes to get under, but I bet
they buy a proper hook for next time.... LOL!

Most real off road vehicles like Jeeps and Land Rovers either have
factory tow hooks or the owners have enough sense to get them. Even our
old 88 Cherokee has factory hooks.

I own a couple Jeeps but off road with lots of Land Rovers. They come
along on our runs on many occasions.

I mean our favorite 'pull toys' are Discos.... ;-) Got photos to prove
it too...

Just kidding, well not really, they go great, but do get high centered
easy with stock tires on them.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

In message <[email protected]>
Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:

> Chris Lord wrote:
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > "Andy.Smalley" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > >
> > > > > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
> > > > >
> > > > > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> > > > > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> > > > > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this
> > thread
> > > > > is about.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> > > > > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> > > > > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > >
> > > > The article states the reason it did this was:
> > > > "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
> > > > neat piece from the rail"
> > > > so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
> > > > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> > > > flying when towing out of mud
> > > >
> > > > or have I missed the point
> > > >
> > >
> > > It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
> > > end of tow ropes.
> > >
> > > That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
> > > letting loose!
> > >
> > > Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
> > > would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
> > >
> > > Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
> > > extraction situation.
> > >
> > > Mike
> >
> > The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.
> >
> > My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah
>
> The Americans do like their big engines and power don't they eh.
>
> You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
> though...
>
> When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
> fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
> 8636 kg with a single block.
>
> Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
> to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
> off???
>
> As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
>
> Mike
oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!

(MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems

Mike Romain wrote:
> Rory Manton wrote:
>>
>> in article [email protected], Andy.Smalley
>> at [email protected] wrote on 3/2/04 17:37:
>> <snip>
>>>
>>> only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
>>>
>>>
>>> Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Hay !!! I take offence at that remark. My rusty/insecure chassis
>> bits didn't come as standard, I had to wait along time and put in a
>> lot of work to get my Landrover to have bits like that,still it's
>> lasted longer than a jeep though.
>
> Well, so far we haven't broken any Land Rovers getting them out of the
> mud with our Jeeps....
>
> Surprising though, I live in a serious rust belt and have had to pull
> a bunch of LR's out over the last few years...
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Would that be the above Jeep which you've lifted to fit big tyres and
replaced every (rusty?) body panel with 'glass even though it's less than 20
years old? ;-)

Funny, you never see jeeps in the really harsh bits of the world, just old
LR's and Toyotas. . . . . . .

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

Exit wrote:
>
> Mike Romain wrote:
> > Rory Manton wrote:
> >>
> >> in article [email protected], Andy.Smalley
> >> at [email protected] wrote on 3/2/04 17:37:
> >> <snip>
> >>>
> >>> only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Andy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Hay !!! I take offence at that remark. My rusty/insecure chassis
> >> bits didn't come as standard, I had to wait along time and put in a
> >> lot of work to get my Landrover to have bits like that,still it's
> >> lasted longer than a jeep though.
> >
> > Well, so far we haven't broken any Land Rovers getting them out of the
> > mud with our Jeeps....
> >
> > Surprising though, I live in a serious rust belt and have had to pull
> > a bunch of LR's out over the last few years...
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Would that be the above Jeep which you've lifted to fit big tyres and
> replaced every (rusty?) body panel with 'glass even though it's less than 20
> years old? ;-)

LOL!!!

Yup, that would 'for sure' be the one!

The frame is the next thing in need of replacement, sooner than later...

I only have a 2.5" spring lift on it so I can run the 33's to keep
clearance on the type of trails I run in the Canadian Bush.

Hence my surprise at never breaking a Land Rover on an extraction. I
have broken my Jeep and have seen many other's broken...

>
> Funny, you never see jeeps in the really harsh bits of the world, just old
> LR's and Toyotas. . . . . . .

No argument from me there Julian. When my wife decided we needed a
'real' 4x4 so we could get way back in the bush where we love to go
camping, we had those in mind. Found a rust bucket Jeep first in our
price range, well cheap so the rest of the money was banked on the
rebuild in the future, and I am a decent mechanic.

Any of the others were 'way' up there in price, they 'sure' hold the
value good here in Canada!!!

Drove the Jeep for a couple years, then did a frame up rebuild with a
nice fiberglass body. No more rust!

Now going on 4 years later the frame is getting ratty.... That was
expected.

Love the CJ7 though, it is a nice beast. Did a 4600 mile east coast of
Canada up the West Coast of Newfoundland run with it and am planning a
James Bay run way up north this summer with a bunch of other Jeeps and
maybe some LR's. That should be fun. I am thinking it should be about
5000 km round trip maybe or more from where I live. (sorry for the
mileage switch, my Jeep is in miles, my maps are in km....)

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:
Aug02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291402603
June 16/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291718705
Easter/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291929351
Jan/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292141347
Aug/01 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292076845
Day Trip Misc. http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291902217
CJ build http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292105877
Jan03 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290887779
Aug 03 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289239511

In article <43c6337b4c%[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> > Mike
> oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
>
> (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
>
> Richard
> --
>

If it's not the FIA, it's just a bunch of rednecks going around in
circles.
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Remove "X" from email address to reply.

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 18:05:46 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected] says...
>> "Barry S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > If you wanted to wrap a chain around a big tree to remove it from the
>> > road, what would you attach the chain to on the truck?
>> >
>> > __________________
>>
>> I'd hook it right onto my 10,000 lbs rated 1 1/4" stem tow ball without
>> thinking twice about it.
>
>Pulling a 10,000 pound trailer along the road is not the same as being
>rated to pull something out of the mud with 10,000 pounds of force. I
>hope you don't learn that the hard way.

What about recovery hooks on the front of full size trucks. Suppose
you chain the front of the stuck vehicle and vehicle on pavement
together? I believe the recovery hooks are welded to the frame.


__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
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"Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "David G. Bell" wrote:
> >
> > On Tuesday, in article
> > <[email protected]>
> > [email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:
> >
> > > > > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
> > > >
> > > > Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that
doesn't
> > > > meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
> > > frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
> > > plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?
> >
> > Well, I'll stick to a Land Rover. But you might want to look at the
> > products of an American company called John Deere. Or maybe
> > Caterpillar.
> >
> > But why don't you explain just how you'd fasten that winch of yours to a
> > vehicle you're trying to recover, whether you're using the snatch block
> > or not.
> >
> > --
>
> I don't know about him, but I have short straps that can wrap around a
> frame to give an anchor point if the vehicle isn't equipped with a tow
> hook or ring bolted to the frame.

Ah but in the example you gave it was the frame that gave way
so by your own standards this is dangerous and should be avoided

Andy

On or around Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:32:52 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>You attach it to the frame or something directly bolted to the frame
>like a winch mount or tire carrier bumper. If you can do that, STOP,
>TAKE OUT YOUR CELL PHONE, CALL AT TOW TRUCK. Unless you are some god
>damn redneck who wants to make a video for the internet.


more to the point, wherever they'd attached that tinbox, they'd have done
damage, due to the way they were towing it. on most cars I've seen the
lash-down/"towing" eyes *are* attached to something structural. But the
vehicles aren't designed to withstand a snatch recovery (and it's highly
likely that the strap they were using wasn't a proper kinetic one anyway,
which means it applies a sudden enormous load to it all, which is bound to
break stuff.

and had they really been bothered, they'd have stopped at the point where
they cracked the bumper, having noticed summat was amiss.

'tis a problem on modern cars though, there's almost nothing accessible to
attach a tow-rope to, in terms of pulling it that hard - basically, the cars
aren't designed for it.

so overall, I reckon yer right - car was worth sod-all, and they thought
they could get 250 notes from "you've been framed" or similar.


once heard of someone who attached a tow-rope to a driveshaft on a car, not
having realised that it rotates...

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
George Orwell (1903 - 1950) Animal Farm

You may want to bash American's but when you need us to save your sorry ass
we will!



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Newsgroups: rec.autos.4x4,alt.fan.landrover,uk.rec.cars.4x4
Subject: Re: Towing out snowed in cars - a cautionary tale!
From: "Shayne" <[email protected]>
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"Shayne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Simple answer to all the queries regarding this mishap can be summed up
in
> one word
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> American {

On or around Tue, 03 Feb 2004 18:02:54 -0500, Mike Romain
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
>fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
>8636 kg with a single block.
>
>Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
>to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
>off???

bearing in mind the fact that it's rated for 3500Kg in normal use, I'd
expect the ball to withstand a steady pull of 8500 Kg.

the problems start when you start doing snatches - you apply a rolling
momentum of 2 tons of vehicle to a stationary thing and the forces created
are probably much more than a straight pull with your winch.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt"
(confound the men who have made our remarks before us.)
Aelius Donatus (4th Cent.) [St. Jerome, Commentary on Ecclesiastes]

In message <[email protected]>
Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <43c6337b4c%[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > > Mike
> > oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
> >
> > (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
> >
> > Richard
> > --
> >
>
> If it's not the FIA, it's just a bunch of rednecks going around in
> circles.
Really? How interesting.........

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:40:11 GMT, "OrygunGuy"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>You may want to bash American's but when you need us to save your sorry ass
>we will!

Yeah, like anyone here gives a flying **** about clueless, illiterate,
off topic, troll-like crossposting ****ers...

http://www.luckwill.com - LUCKWILL JAILED
=========================================

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 22:24:17 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Um, Land Rover? What did you think we drive?

Crossposting tossers very seldom know where their comments go. They
simply hit reply and assume that everyone lives in their own padded
little world...


Martyn

--
His knife see rustic Labour dight, An cut you up wi ready slight,
Trenching your gushing entrails bright, Like onie ditch;
And then, O what a glorious sight, Warm-reekin, rich!
"Address to a Haggis" Rabbie Burns 1759 - 1796

On Tuesday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > On Tuesday, in article
> > <[email protected]>
> > [email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:
> >
> > > > > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
> > > >
> > > > Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
> > > > meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
> > > frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
> > > plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?
> >
> > Well, I'll stick to a Land Rover. But you might want to look at the
> > products of an American company called John Deere. Or maybe
> > Caterpillar.
> >
>
> Exactly, neither of which make a Geo Saturn or a nissan pickup truck
> AFAIK.
>
> > But why don't you explain just how you'd fasten that winch of yours to a
> > vehicle you're trying to recover, whether you're using the snatch block
> > or not.
>
> You attach it to the frame or something directly bolted to the frame
> like a winch mount or tire carrier bumper. If you can do that, STOP,
> TAKE OUT YOUR CELL PHONE, CALL AT TOW TRUCK. Unless you are some god
> damn redneck who wants to make a video for the internet.

Excuse me a moment...

[SFX: door opening, footsteps fading into the distance. Slow ticking of
nearby clock. Fade in footsteps. Door closing]

The Ford in the garage doesn't have a frame.

The Land Rover has a NATO tow-hook bolted to the frame, but I understand
this ancient design couldn't be sold as a new vehicle in the US.

I suppose you can use your winch for self-recovery, but there doesn't
seem to be much else you can do with it.

And I'm a bit doubtful about a "tire carrier bumper" as an attachment
point; I'd have to take a close look to be sure.

In any event, I still can't figure how a tow truck could do any better.
The folk I know over here who have winches seem to have other stuff to
help attach to the vehicle being recovered, such as a bridle to spread
the load between two points, and there are various methods of absorbing
the rebound energy if a cable or attachment breaks. You're giving me
the strong impression that you haven't thought through what you're
saying, and, unless you have some other use for that winch, you're a bit
of a show-off.

Yes, you're right about the risks, but while I've seen towing points on
vehicles, for _on-road_ recovery, they're front only, and usually the
only attachment point at the rear with any reliable strength in the tow-
ball mounting.

Not enough strength for your winch, but that's _your_ problem, not mine.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

"Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> > I'd hook it right onto my 10,000 lbs rated 1 1/4" stem tow ball without
> > thinking twice about it.
>
>
> Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.

Well, if that big tree across the road weighs 5 tons or more (highly
unlikely) I'll be sure to call you so you can winch it out.

jeez, get real

"Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I mean our favorite 'pull toys' are Discos.... ;-) Got photos to prove
> it too...

Is that as in women, or stuck vehicles?

Mike Romain wrote:
> Exit wrote:
>>
>> Mike Romain wrote:
>>> Rory Manton wrote:
>>>>
>>>> in article [email protected],
>>>> Andy.Smalley at [email protected] wrote on 3/2/04 17:37:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Hay !!! I take offence at that remark. My rusty/insecure chassis
>>>> bits didn't come as standard, I had to wait along time and put in a
>>>> lot of work to get my Landrover to have bits like that,still it's
>>>> lasted longer than a jeep though.
>>>
>>> Well, so far we haven't broken any Land Rovers getting them out of
>>> the mud with our Jeeps....
>>>
>>> Surprising though, I live in a serious rust belt and have had to
>>> pull a bunch of LR's out over the last few years...
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>>> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>>
>> Would that be the above Jeep which you've lifted to fit big tyres and
>> replaced every (rusty?) body panel with 'glass even though it's less
>> than 20 years old? ;-)
>
> LOL!!!
>
> Yup, that would 'for sure' be the one!
>
> The frame is the next thing in need of replacement, sooner than
> later...
>
> I only have a 2.5" spring lift on it so I can run the 33's to keep
> clearance on the type of trails I run in the Canadian Bush.
>
> Hence my surprise at never breaking a Land Rover on an extraction. I
> have broken my Jeep and have seen many other's broken...
>
>>
>> Funny, you never see jeeps in the really harsh bits of the world,
>> just old LR's and Toyotas. . . . . . .
>
> No argument from me there Julian. When my wife decided we needed a
> 'real' 4x4 so we could get way back in the bush where we love to go
> camping, we had those in mind. Found a rust bucket Jeep first in our
> price range, well cheap so the rest of the money was banked on the
> rebuild in the future, and I am a decent mechanic.
>
> Any of the others were 'way' up there in price, they 'sure' hold the
> value good here in Canada!!!
>
> Drove the Jeep for a couple years, then did a frame up rebuild with a
> nice fiberglass body. No more rust!
>
> Now going on 4 years later the frame is getting ratty.... That was
> expected.
>
> Love the CJ7 though, it is a nice beast. Did a 4600 mile east coast
> of Canada up the West Coast of Newfoundland run with it and am
> planning a James Bay run way up north this summer with a bunch of
> other Jeeps and maybe some LR's. That should be fun. I am thinking
> it should be about 5000 km round trip maybe or more from where I
> live. (sorry for the mileage switch, my Jeep is in miles, my maps
> are in km....)
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:
> Aug02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291402603
> June 16/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291718705
> Easter/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291929351
> Jan/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292141347
> Aug/01 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292076845
> Day Trip Misc. http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291902217
> CJ build http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292105877
> Jan03 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290887779
> Aug 03 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289239511

Certainly looks like you get your moneys worth out of it anyway!

--
Julian
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