Towing out snowed in cars - a cautionary tale!

> >> together? I believe the recovery hooks are welded to the frame.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Yes recover hooks are welded or bolted on the frame, which is what you
> >should be using if you have them. Unibody POS cars do not have them and
> >no body should be doing a hard cable pull on a car like that.
>
> Well, if your POS unibody is stuck in the snow and you can attach a
> chain or strap to your recovery hooks, what would you hook it to on
> the car to pull it out? Usually when you get towed, they grab ya by

You are talking in circles, what's stuck nt he snow, my truck or the
peice of **** unibody car? If a POS car is really stuck, I don't try to
pull it out with my truck, it's that simple. It's tough luck buddy,
learn to drive and get some snow tires next time.

> the wheels, but I think a hard pull might just give you an unwanted
> caster adjustment if using straps around the wheels as the pull point.
>

Let the towing company worry about it. Fact is if they screw it up it's
covered, if I screw it up the other guys insurance company pays for it
and then they sue ME to recover the funds. Screw that.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

In message <[email protected]>
Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:

> "richard.watson" wrote:
> >
> > In message <[email protected]>
> > Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
> > > > > though...
> > > > >
> > > > > When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
> > > > > fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
> > > > > 8636 kg with a single block.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
> > > > > to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
> > > > > off???
> > > > >
> > > > > As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
> > > >
> > > > (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
> > > >
> > > > Richard
> > >
> > > You 'are' kidding right?
> > >
> > Nope.
>
> Ok.....
>
> > > We must be talking apples and oranges here or something.
> > >
> > > Over here in Canada we tend to get stuck in bogs and mud, not just off
> > > in a grass ditch or something.
> > >
> > Ah right, the UK's bone dry! Must remember that............
>
> LOL!
>
> > > I mean, bumpers get bent and torn off even if the pull is anchored only
> > > to it and not a frame tag.
> > I don't know about other makes, but a correctly fitted tow hitch on a
> > front bumper of a Land Rover (i.e. with a spreader plate behind it,
> > between, or in front of, the dumb irons) is
> > effectively part of the chassis, and at the rear it *is* part of the
> > chassis. Applying sufficient force to pull them off would at the very
> > least severely injure anyone in the vehicle during a snatch, and a winch
> > , even of massive proportions, would stall.
>
> Apples and oranges for sure here!
It's chalk and cheese in these parts - but no, that's not what I'm saying.
>
> Not talking tow ball mount, just the ball. Hitch mounts can be made
> strong enough to anchor the winch, let alone a tow ball.
I was refering to the comment about bumpers comming off...
>
> This is a world wide forum cross posted and advocating using a stock or
> generic tow ball as an extraction anchor is nuts!!!!
We'll just have to disagree about that...
>
> The post bolting the ball to the mount is only about 1" or less in most
> cases.
EU tow balls do not have bolts conecting the ball to the mount -
is that where some confusion is comming from? EU approved towing balls
are one-piece affairs.
>
> Use a snatch or knetic rope puts serious stress on the ball. Softer hit
> than a 'hard' chain which will just drop the ball off to the ground, but
> more dangerous if it lets loose. Same for a winch that can shear it!
>
Snatching with a chain?????!!!! We'll very definately have to agree to
disagree with doing that. I'll bet a kinetic rope can apply way more
force than a winch too.
>
> > Perhaps a good illustration of the strength of the front arrangement
> > was at the ARC Nationals at Bordon a couple of years ago when Colin
> > Farrels Diso got bogged down to the chassis (on the camping field!!!)
> > - it took three Liconshire Club triallers, with kinetics, to
> > snatch him out. No damage was done.
>
> Now for sure we are on other planets!!!!
>
Thats the trouble with facts, they do tend to spoil pet theories
> I mentioned the difference from our bogs an that 'grass ditch' your
> camping field is on a while ago.
Grass ditch? That was a flat field! We have a wide variety of bogs
available too, any depth you like!
>
> LOL!!!! You are just toooo funny!
aw, shucks xxxx
>
> Yes, I will have to admit I would likey let someone use their tow ball
> as an anchor to get them out of the campground parking lot....
>
Such unbounded generosity- I think you may have missed the point about
"bogged down to the chassis" - it means that the wheels are effectively
not it contact with the ground, all four of them.
> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
Bless you - is it catching?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems

On or around Wed, 04 Feb 2004 14:51:25 -0500, Mike Romain
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I have a Warn XD9000i winch with 125' of 5/16 or 8mm aircraft wire rope.
>
>It is rated at 9000 lb or 4080 kg for a single pull (another site has it
>rated at 9500 lb single pull) and the wire rope has a 4773 kg or 10500
>lb breaking point.

which is considerably under the 19000lb or so you reckoned to pull with it.
Bit of luck those figures they quote have a built-in safety factor then,
isn't it. a bit like the ones for ball hitches, I expect.

another point - how do you attach straps/harnesses etc? what's the safe max
load of the shackles etc. you may use?


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent.
I shall attack. - Marshal Foch (1851 - 1929)

On or around Wed, 04 Feb 2004 08:44:52 +0000 (GMT),
[email protected] ("David G. Bell") enlightened us thusly:

>The Land Rover has a NATO tow-hook bolted to the frame, but I understand
>this ancient design couldn't be sold as a new vehicle in the US.

your loss

besides, I think they do, they must have exemption.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"You praise the firm restraint with which they write -_
I'm with you there, of course: They use the snaffle and the bit
alright, but where's the bloody horse? - Roy Campbell (1902-1957)

On or around Wed, 04 Feb 2004 14:01:39 -0500, Mike Romain
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>These are bolted onto the frame with high grade bolts.

if you mean high tensile bolts note that they're not much better in shear
than mild steel.

the pin on the sliding hitch on the back of our disco turns out to be mild
steel, if overloaded it's more likely to bend than to snap. Apparently. I
made an adapter to mount NATO hitch at bumper height, which uses 2 such
pins, and I've towed about 3-and-a-bit tons on it.

The hitch is probably rated to tow 3.5 tonnes, on it's original single pin.
Not that I really like the design, mind.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?
>
> probably, they (should be) 16mm high tensile.
>
> gives you a combined CSA for both of around 400mm²
>
> ISTR that mild steel has a tensile strength of about 16 tons/sq.in, which
if
> my calculations are right means that 2x16mm mild steel bolts would have a
> tensile strength of getting on for 10 tons. High-tensile ones are apt to
be
> stronger, at least in tension... The NATO hitch on mine is fitted by
4x12mm
> high-tensile bolts which have a combined strength slightly higher than the
> 2x16mm ones.
>
> meanwhile, the neck of the towball is somewhat larger, without measuring
it
> I don't know what size it is, but I'd hazard a guess that it's at least
20mm
> which makes it the same area as the 2 bolts, it might be slightly larger.
>
> I'd have to look up shear loads.
>
> However. the tow ball is rated to tow 3500Kg, and even on-road, the
dynamic
> forces exceed the static load (e.g. from over-run braking), I'd be amazed
if
> the tow ball hasn't got at least a factor 2 in its design, probably more.
>
> Obviously, you can break it, you can break anything. But I don't think
it's
> common, and I don't think it's as puny as you all make out.
>
> ISTR a common size for shackles is 3/4" - that pin is probably not as
thick
> as the neck of a tow ball.
>

Most of the seious offroaders around here when going on a trip undo the
towball any way and take a extra high sheer force shackle. slip the U though
the loop in a snatch strap, and the pin through the hole where the towball
goes in the bar, and do up. I'd have to crawl under my Trooper/bighorn to
have a look to count the bolts or welds, but It would have to (by law) be
attached by welding (strong) or high tensile bolts (also strong ) to the
frame of a framed vehicle. I'm not sure about monocoque bodies.

rhys

In message <[email protected]>, Mike Romain
<[email protected]> writes

(cross posted on purpose)

>I don't know about him, but I have short straps that can wrap around a
>frame to give an anchor point if the vehicle isn't equipped with a tow
>hook or ring bolted to the frame. My long straps are rate for 30,000 lb
>and I think the short ones are the same. My straps have sewn loops, no
>metal to fire off.

I have been lurking with interest up to now but as I own and run my own
vehicle delivery and recovery business I'm afraid that I am going to
have to say something.

Webbing straps/strops ARE NOT designed to be wrapped around ANYTHING
(except tree strops with a protective sleeve). They are designed to
pull in a straight line with no fouling. You start wrapping around
chassis and you are reducing the 'safe working load' of the strap and
NEVER NEVER re-loop itself back through one of it's loops as this could
multiply the strain on the part of the strap going through the loop,
always use a shackle of suitable strength and quality for the job.
Always use one with a safety certificate so if there is any malfunction
you may have a 'possible' claim. My insurance runs into thousands and
as part of the health and safety/insurance are concerned my equipment
has to certified and checked at regular intervals. As regarding using
kinetic ropes, please, if you have never used one of these before be
careful and always read the instruction first, they are there for a
reason. They can be lethal if not used correctly.

--
Graham Jones

WOW!!! HOW MANY REPLIES!!! GOTTA BE THE MOST I HAVE EVER SEEN!

MC

------



"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, orygunguy2001
> @hotmail.com says...
> > You may want to bash American's but when you need us to save your sorry
ass
> > we will!
> >
>
> We don't have any oil, go away.
> --
> ____________________
> Remove "X" from email address to reply.

Try Rec.Scuba.... they really go overboard... 4000 posts in one thread in
the archives


"Mark C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d_aVb.2625$q%[email protected]...
> WOW!!! HOW MANY REPLIES!!! GOTTA BE THE MOST I HAVE EVER SEEN!
>
> MC
>
> ------
>
>
>
> "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, orygunguy2001
> > @hotmail.com says...
> > > You may want to bash American's but when you need us to save your
sorry
> ass
> > > we will!
> > >
> >
> > We don't have any oil, go away.
> > --
> > ____________________
> > Remove "X" from email address to reply.
>
>

Graham Jones wrote:
>
> In message <[email protected]>, Mike Romain
> <[email protected]> writes
>
> (cross posted on purpose)
>
> >I don't know about him, but I have short straps that can wrap around a
> >frame to give an anchor point if the vehicle isn't equipped with a tow
> >hook or ring bolted to the frame. My long straps are rate for 30,000 lb
> >and I think the short ones are the same. My straps have sewn loops, no
> >metal to fire off.
>
> I have been lurking with interest up to now but as I own and run my own
> vehicle delivery and recovery business I'm afraid that I am going to
> have to say something.
>
> Webbing straps/strops ARE NOT designed to be wrapped around ANYTHING
> (except tree strops with a protective sleeve). They are designed to
> pull in a straight line with no fouling. You start wrapping around
> chassis and you are reducing the 'safe working load' of the strap and
> NEVER NEVER re-loop itself back through one of it's loops as this could
> multiply the strain on the part of the strap going through the loop,
> always use a shackle of suitable strength and quality for the job.
> Always use one with a safety certificate so if there is any malfunction
> you may have a 'possible' claim. My insurance runs into thousands and
> as part of the health and safety/insurance are concerned my equipment
> has to certified and checked at regular intervals. As regarding using
> kinetic ropes, please, if you have never used one of these before be
> careful and always read the instruction first, they are there for a
> reason. They can be lethal if not used correctly.
>
> --
> Graham Jones

You are correct Graham!

I normally throw away the short straps that were used if they got ripped
pulling the stuck vehicle if it was wrapped around sharp points.

I live in Canada though.....

This is a serious rust belt in central and southern Canada, nasty rust
belt!!!

I use the straps in a loop, couple feet, loop, couple feet, loop, couple
feet, loop idea to spread out the stress.

I then have also just up and cut off the damaged ends and used a tied
loop.

Yes I know the knot is a weak point too, but am aware of it.

Same as someone else pointed out the 'working load' of my winch cable
isn't the best. I know this and watch my ass.

I also off road a whole bunch so take wear and tear on gear and vehicles
as a matter of 'you play, you pay'. ;-)

Here are some photo albums from my of road trips. I organize trips for
the central Canadian bunch from a Jeep newsgroup,
rec.autos.makers.jeep+willys.

Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:
Aug02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291402603
June 16/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291718705
Easter/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291929351
Jan/02 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292141347
Aug/01 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292076845
Day Trip Misc. http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291902217
CJ build http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292105877
Jan03 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290887779
Aug 03 http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289239511

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's