Towing out snowed in cars - a cautionary tale!

On or around Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?

probably, they (should be) 16mm high tensile.

gives you a combined CSA for both of around 400mm²

ISTR that mild steel has a tensile strength of about 16 tons/sq.in, which if
my calculations are right means that 2x16mm mild steel bolts would have a
tensile strength of getting on for 10 tons. High-tensile ones are apt to be
stronger, at least in tension... The NATO hitch on mine is fitted by 4x12mm
high-tensile bolts which have a combined strength slightly higher than the
2x16mm ones.

meanwhile, the neck of the towball is somewhat larger, without measuring it
I don't know what size it is, but I'd hazard a guess that it's at least 20mm
which makes it the same area as the 2 bolts, it might be slightly larger.

I'd have to look up shear loads.

However. the tow ball is rated to tow 3500Kg, and even on-road, the dynamic
forces exceed the static load (e.g. from over-run braking), I'd be amazed if
the tow ball hasn't got at least a factor 2 in its design, probably more.

Obviously, you can break it, you can break anything. But I don't think it's
common, and I don't think it's as puny as you all make out.

ISTR a common size for shackles is 3/4" - that pin is probably not as thick
as the neck of a tow ball.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
Robert Frost (1874-1963)

On or around Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:09:59 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

> Also, a tow ball and trailer are
>basically a ball joint, if I wanted a fast wearing ball inside a ball
>joint I'd just buy a F-150 front end.

teehee...

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
Robert Frost (1874-1963)

In message <[email protected]>
bdubya <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >QrizB wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:33:56 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"David G. Bell" wrote:
> >>
> >> >> But that's why they make those bow-shackles that fit a tow-ball.
> >> >
> >> >Those bow shackles that fit a tow ball are setups for a Darwin award.
> >> >
> >> >You don't ever want to be around when some fool uses a tow ball for a
> >> >recovery point!
> >> >
> >> >The balls shear off and turn into cannon balls.
> >> >
> >> >They seriously go ballistic.
> >>
> >> Well, that's one opinion on the topic. I doubt it's a popular one on
> >> the "uk" side of the pond, though.
> >
> >Huh?
> >
> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> >ocean what happens to it?
> >
> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
>
> Mebbe their snatch straps are only good for 3000 kg?
>
> bw
nah, we just have decent tow hitch manufacturers

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:09:59 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Tow balls are subjected to impact forces from being backed into trailer
>tongues, old ladies and brick walls. You don't want them to bend and
>distort every time that happens. Also, a tow ball and trailer are
>basically a ball joint, if I wanted a fast wearing ball inside a ball
>joint I'd just buy a F-150 front end.

If you wanted to wrap a chain around a big tree to remove it from the
road, what would you attach the chain to on the truck?

__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

"Barry S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If you wanted to wrap a chain around a big tree to remove it from the
> road, what would you attach the chain to on the truck?
>
> __________________

I'd hook it right onto my 10,000 lbs rated 1 1/4" stem tow ball without
thinking twice about it.

On Monday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:39 -0400, Chris Phillipo
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > >> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:25:11 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >So when a snatch strap snaps a tow ball off over on that side of the
> > >> >ocean what happens to it?
> > >> >
> > >> >Do you have some kind of Druid magic or something that is going to make
> > >> >that round steel shot drop to the ground rather than sending it
> > >> >ballistic like it does over on this side of the ocean?
> > >>
> > >> Apparently, we chose to involve metallurgists in designing towballs.
> > >> European 50mm towballs are rated for a 3.5-tonne load.
> > >>
> > >> http://premiertools.co.uk/item8527.htm if you don't believe me.
> > >
> > >And you think the two bolts holding that are rated for 3.5 tonnes?
> >
> > Funnily enough no, I don't. They're 16 mm 8.8 high-tensile steel,
> > which by my reckoning gives each bolt a yield strength of roughly 13
> > tonnes. Far more than the 3.5 tonnes rating of the tow ball.
> >
> >
>
> Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.

Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

David Modine wrote:
>
> "Barry S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > If you wanted to wrap a chain around a big tree to remove it from the
> > road, what would you attach the chain to on the truck?
> >
> > __________________
>
> I'd hook it right onto my 10,000 lbs rated 1 1/4" stem tow ball without
> thinking twice about it.


Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.

They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this thread
is about.

Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.

http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm

Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

"Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
>
> They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this thread
> is about.
>
> Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
>
> http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
>
> Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

The article states the reason it did this was:
"The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
neat piece from the rail"
so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
flying when towing out of mud

or have I missed the point

Andy

in article [email protected], Andy.Smalley at
[email protected] wrote on 3/2/04 17:37:
<snip>
>
> only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
Hay !!! I take offence at that remark. My rusty/insecure chassis bits didn't
come as standard, I had to wait along time and put in a lot of work to get
my Landrover to have bits like that,still it's lasted longer than a
jeep though.

"Andy.Smalley" wrote:
>
> "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
> >
> > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this thread
> > is about.
> >
> > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
> >
> > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
> >
> > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
> >
> > Mike
> > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>
> The article states the reason it did this was:
> "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
> neat piece from the rail"
> so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
> only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> flying when towing out of mud
>
> or have I missed the point
>

It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
end of tow ropes.

That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
letting loose!

Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.

Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
extraction situation.

Mike

Rory Manton wrote:
>
> in article [email protected], Andy.Smalley at
> [email protected] wrote on 3/2/04 17:37:
> <snip>
> >
> > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> >
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> Hay !!! I take offence at that remark. My rusty/insecure chassis bits didn't
> come as standard, I had to wait along time and put in a lot of work to get
> my Landrover to have bits like that,still it's lasted longer than a
> jeep though.

Well, so far we haven't broken any Land Rovers getting them out of the
mud with our Jeeps....

Surprising though, I live in a serious rust belt and have had to pull a
bunch of LR's out over the last few years...

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:09:59 -0400, Chris Phillipo
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Tow balls are subjected to impact forces from being backed into trailer
> >tongues, old ladies and brick walls. You don't want them to bend and
> >distort every time that happens. Also, a tow ball and trailer are
> >basically a ball joint, if I wanted a fast wearing ball inside a ball
> >joint I'd just buy a F-150 front end.
>
> If you wanted to wrap a chain around a big tree to remove it from the
> road, what would you attach the chain to on the truck?
>
> __________________
> Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
> N38.6 W121.4
>

If I had a hitch, which I don't anymore because my bumper is now mounted
in those holes, I would be using this or not doing it at all:

http://www.warn.com/truck/accessories/shackle.shtml
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> "Barry S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > If you wanted to wrap a chain around a big tree to remove it from the
> > road, what would you attach the chain to on the truck?
> >
> > __________________
>
> I'd hook it right onto my 10,000 lbs rated 1 1/4" stem tow ball without
> thinking twice about it.
>

Pulling a 10,000 pound trailer along the road is not the same as being
rated to pull something out of the mud with 10,000 pounds of force. I
hope you don't learn that the hard way.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

> > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
>
> Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
> meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
>
>

Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?

--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

In article <[email protected]>, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> writes
>> > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
>>
>> Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
>> meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
>>
>>
>
>Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
>frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
>plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?

Um, Land Rover? What did you think we drive?


Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, UK INDEPENDENCE PARTY, BRISTOL www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

"SpamTrapSeeSig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Chris Phillipo
> <[email protected]> writes
> >> > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
> >>
> >> Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
> >> meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
> >frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
> >plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?
>
> Um, Land Rover? What did you think we drive?

Well, considering this thread is cross-posted to 3 groups, it's not as
obvious as the residents of a.f.l may think

In article <[email protected]>, David French
<[email protected]> writes
>"SpamTrapSeeSig" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, Chris Phillipo
>> <[email protected]> writes
>> >> > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
>> >>
>> >> Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
>> >> meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
>> >frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
>> >plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?
>>
>> Um, Land Rover? What did you think we drive?
>
>Well, considering this thread is cross-posted to 3 groups, it's not as
>obvious as the residents of a.f.l may think

Sorry. Is there another 4x4?

Regards,

Simonm.
(who WAS joking...)

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, UK INDEPENDENCE PARTY, BRISTOL www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

"Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Andy.Smalley" wrote:
> >
> > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
> > >
> > > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> > > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> > > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this
thread
> > > is about.
> > >
> > > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> > > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
> > >
> > > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
> > >
> > > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> > > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >
> > The article states the reason it did this was:
> > "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
> > neat piece from the rail"
> > so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
> > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> > flying when towing out of mud
> >
> > or have I missed the point
> >
>
> It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
> end of tow ropes.
>
> That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
> letting loose!
>
> Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
> would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
>
> Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
> extraction situation.
>
> Mike

The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.

My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah

On Tuesday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:

> > > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
> >
> > Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that doesn't
> > meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
> >
> >
>
> Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
> frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
> plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?

Well, I'll stick to a Land Rover. But you might want to look at the
products of an American company called John Deere. Or maybe
Caterpillar.

But why don't you explain just how you'd fasten that winch of yours to a
vehicle you're trying to recover, whether you're using the snatch block
or not.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

Chris Lord wrote:
>
> "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Andy.Smalley" wrote:
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
> > > >
> > > > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> > > > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> > > > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this
> thread
> > > > is about.
> > > >
> > > > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> > > > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
> > > >
> > > > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> > > > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > >
> > > The article states the reason it did this was:
> > > "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
> > > neat piece from the rail"
> > > so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
> > > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> > > flying when towing out of mud
> > >
> > > or have I missed the point
> > >
> >
> > It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
> > end of tow ropes.
> >
> > That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
> > letting loose!
> >
> > Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
> > would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
> >
> > Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
> > extraction situation.
> >
> > Mike
>
> The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.
>
> My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah

The Americans do like their big engines and power don't they eh.

You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
though...

When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
8636 kg with a single block.

Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
off???

As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.

Mike