KV6 Freelander, no drive in any gear! 2WD conversion

Still thinking of taking it back to those who worked on it before, Craigs Automatic Transmissions @ Chipping Norton, they've worked on the JF506E previously, i mean sure it'll cost but i'd rather the pro for such an important task.

Any news?

Hi Hippo,

haven't got around to it yet, it's possibly going to be for the 2nd weekend from now as last weekend i put the head gasket on my 1.8K series together with the stronger oil rail as recommended by Land Rover. As recommended by the engine reconditioning specialist, I sprayed Hylomar sealant on the MLS gasket and shim and engine block (but not on the cylinder head mating face) then torqued all the head bolts to spec, then left it like that as when i finished that part it had been Sunday the 30th March about 6pm and getting dark.. 2 weekends from now I think. Though, as i had a previous HG fail on me for my 1.8 K series, before i do anything else, i need to somehow prove to myself that the Hylomar sealant that i used hasn't block the coolant holes in the steel shim. The holes on the gasket are larger, but the ones on the shim are tiny, especially on the intake manifold side. Any ways i could possibly test if those homes have been blocked by Hylomar without proceeding further but also without undoing the cylinder head bolts?? I will post this in to the other thread and will update as soon as i work on the KV6 Jatco.

Hi everyone, sorry to revive an old thread again, but, a few hours ago, I put everything back together on the KV6 and exactly same problem as previous. No drive in any gear. No gear display on the dash, but there's gear display next to the gear select panel. I read one of Hippo's posts on this great web site late last year with a chap he went and met once, the diesel Freelander auto and similar conditions to mine : no drive at all and his prop was also removed. I've head the fluid temp sensor and all of the other sensors in same area replaced, the transmission guys did that. Now that same problem, I wont go ahead and kick myself as I fixed the crank rear seal oil leak (used new bolts, no leak now), as well as the leak I previously had from the torque converter seal as I pushed the old one in too far - this one's just fine. So if anything, I would have had to remove the Jatco anyways. When I start mine up, the fans still fire up full blast. I note with interest one of Hippo's points in his detailed analysis in that he writes that the same earth point governs the fans and the gear box, I haven't check this earth point, somewhere near the passenger side near the rear of the headlights? I also note with interest that the website "freelanderspecialist.com" states as following for propshaft removal and the KV6, "you cannot remove the propshaft on a v6 Freelander". They state that it can be removed on the others. I left the IRD as is with the blanking plug but feel tempted to remove the blanking plug and fit only the rear end shaft back in (not the entire prop shaft), so as to fool the system in to thinking that the rear wheel drive may be connected. I think checking all earths might be a better way to start. It starts up fine revs normally, all those lights at the dash just like before are still lit up, the HDC, the TC, the ABS.

That Freelander specialist's knowledge of the V6's drivetrain is wrong. The V6 can drive quite happily in FWD mode.
If you don't get a gear position on the dash display, I'd guess you have a Can buss error somewhere.

Thanks Nodge. So it could possibly be something not earthed properly... I was reading RAVE on and on, esp. the "system desc and operation", and it's almost like the ABS system relies on the prop shaft being there to function correctly. I emailed Freelanderspecialist.com to elaborate on that and they didn't respond about that part (that you cannot remove the prop shaft on the Kv6). I would further assume that if that wasn;t possible that there'd be much more write ups on it online, and the Fleabay sellers who sell the blanking plugs would be sued if they failed to put a notice or warning of, "warning: for TD4 and k1.8 only - the prop shaft cannot be removed on the KV6!"

niccage said:

Thanks Nodge. So it could possibly be something not earthed properly... I was reading RAVE on and on, esp. the "system desc and operation", and it's almost like the ABS system relies on the prop shaft being there to function correctly. I emailed Freelanderspecialist.com to elaborate on that and they didn't respond about that part (that you cannot remove the prop shaft on the Kv6). I would further assume that if that wasn;t possible that there'd be much more write ups on it online, and the Fleabay sellers who sell the blanking plugs would be sued if they failed to put a notice or warning of, "warning: for TD4 and k1.8 only - the prop shaft cannot be removed on the KV6!"

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They are talking sh1t. I know Hippo is currently running his Freelander in FWD as am I. The prop output from the IRD just turns as you drive. The rear diff does the the same thing.
The vehicle speed is taken from the ABS system. Iirc the vehicle speed is worked out as an average of all 4 wheels speed. However I believe the system can get confused if 2 or more ABS sensors fail.

Hi Nodge,
carried out more testing today, by the way, the 3 Amigos lights on the dash display are yellow not red - thus only cauion lights, not red. According to RAve, red colour means warning, yellow means caution. That's the HDC, the TC and ABS.
I used a power probe tester and was able to obtain a voltage on the ABS sensor for the LHS road wheel and same voltage, approx. 12 ish volts, also for the ABS sensor on the right hand side road wheel.
I also removed each of the ABS sensors and spray a little with WD40 then thoroughly wiped clean with a rag then dried, and pushed back inside, snug fit.
Could the ABS ECU modulator unit be kaput?

I checked all of the earth points today as Hippo touched on in his detailed and analytical posting a few months ago to another chap with nil drive for a diesel.. and all the earth points are strong.

I can remember, however, that when I was removing the gearbox on the original occasion, I failed to disconnect the earth cable, the one that bolts on top of the gearbox next to the inhibitor switch..as I was hoisting down the gearbox, it may have hung on that earth cable for 15 seconds or so till I realised that was stopping it from coming down further, till I raised the hoist then removed the cable... could that have fatally damaged the cable to cause the conditions as at present, even though I have refitted it and it seems fine from a visual perspective?

The best way to test the ABS sensors is check the resistance. This should be around 1K ohm or 1000 ohms give or take 5%. If you rotate the wheel slowly, the resistance will fluctuate slightly.

Still no go. I tested both the left and right ABS sensors, connected the multi meters leads and as the wheel spins I can see the values jumping before it stops at 1115. Exactly same on the left hand wheel. So that's a no go. I ensured that that earth cable was nice and tight so it cant be that. Lastly, since I filled the fluid in to the Jatco as it was slightly jacked up previously, I undid the fluid level bolt on it, and since fluid didn't come out, I started adding fluid until it started pouring out, then did up the level allen bolt and put the rubbed cap in the filler hole. I then started it up again, and no go, still the same, no drive, the HDC, TC and ABS lights are all amber and stay on. I wouldn't know how to test the ABS Modulator though or the ABS pump, either of these could be kaput? Next Saturday I'm thinking of getting an auto electrician to come around and check a few things out.

It would be a good idea to there is pump pressure in the box. It's easy to check if a little messy. All you need do is loosen an oil cooler union while the engine is running. Half a turn for a few seconds is all that's required. If there is fluid pressure, it will drip from the loosened union very quickly.
It's not the official way to check but it's quick!!
Was the engine running when you checked the fluid level? It should be.
As for the 3 amigos, have you changed the brake light switch? It's the most common cause of them.

Do you know the abs error codes? Even though the abs sensors measure ok resistance wise it's still possible to have problems with them. You need to know if they're detecting the wheel turning. Disconnect the yellow abs connector like you did to measure the resistance but this time measure AC volts across the sensor terminals instead. Lift the wheel with the suspected fault oft the ground (chock other wheels) and put in neutral and spin the lifted wheel. You should measure a volt difference when the wheel turns. If yer props and vcu are fitted you will need to lift the wheel being tested and another, to allow the tested wheel to turn. If you don't have the abs error codes test all 4 abs sensors just in case.

Hi Nodge, engine was running when fluid level checked. I checked that before (with the pump) and pumping fluid all good. I did it a slightly different way but same idea, I d/c one of the unions and put it in to a plastic bottle... clever hey?! No mess..! And fluid is pumping all right. Hi Hippo, I d/c that yellow connector both at the driver's side then the other at the passenger's side after removing the battery and used a multimeter on resistance and spun the wheels manually before I got that result. However I must concede, it wasn't single wheel spin as I trolley jacked the front of the KV6 thus both front wheels in the air and were turning. Come the weekend, I will do that test with one wheel up only, or as you stated, I can lift the wheels very slightly off the ground and use wheel chocks on the passenger's side front wheel. The VCU and prop and IRD output shaft are all removed so no need to worry about the rear wheels. I will put it in to neutral and try that test. Btw, I rang some landrover experts around here including one dealer who put me on to this mechanic not LR but independent but claims to know FL1s very well... he stated that my no drive could be affected by the propshaft and IRD output shaft having been removed - it's a complicated explanation so I will quote verbatim, to me it doesn't make sense, but he stated that "the system on the KV6 suffers from a lack of balance when you remove the propshaft and the IRD output shaft and fit the blanking plug and some safety feature has kicked in and locked the torque converter thus disabling all drive". He thinks I should reinstate the entire propshaft and see what occurs. It doesn't make sense to me as there's a lot of other people such as Hippo that run their KV6es successfully in 2WD mode. Even if there is a "lack of balance" due to the absence of the propshaft for the KV6, how would the KV6 control system be able to tell, does it have eyes behind the rear exhaust manifold?! (lol).. Nuff said, I'll be trying that one wheel test next weekend. I haven't changed the brake light switch. Any other way to test if the brake light switch is the culprit before changing it?

Hi Hippo, no ABS error codes when I scanned it, but then again it may not be that advanced a scan tool. That was a few months ago, it was enough to let me log in to the KV6's heart and see it's pulse, breaths and some other nice graphical displays, but the software wasn't as advanced a Hawkeye for instance.

niccage said:

Hi Hippo, no ABS error codes when I scanned it, but then again it may not be that advanced a scan tool. That was a few months ago, it was enough to let me log in to the KV6's heart and see it's pulse, breaths and some other nice graphical displays, but the software wasn't as advanced a Hawkeye for instance.

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To get to the ABS codes I think you will need to get to the ABS computer, which is where the hawkeye finds the codes.

niccage said:

Hi Nodge.
Btw, I rang some landrover experts around here including one dealer who put me on to this mechanic not LR but independent but claims to know FL1s very well... he stated that my no drive could be affected by the propshaft and IRD output shaft having been removed - it's a complicated explanation so I will quote verbatim, to me it doesn't make sense, but he stated that "the system on the KV6 suffers from a lack of balance when you remove the propshaft and the IRD output shaft and fit the blanking plug and some safety feature has kicked in and locked the torque converter thus disabling all drive". He thinks I should reinstate the entire propshaft and see what occurs. It doesn't make sense to me as there's a lot of other people such as Hippo that run their KV6es successfully in 2WD mode. Even if there is a "lack of balance" due to the absence of the propshaft for the KV6, how would the KV6 control system be able to tell, does it have eyes behind the rear exhaust manifold?! (lol).. Nuff said, I'll be trying that one wheel test next weekend. I haven't changed the brake light switch. Any other way to test if the brake light switch is the culprit before changing it?

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This guys knowledge of the Freelander, V6 or otherwise is poor. The IRD in all Freelanders, transfers the drive equally to the front and rear at the same time. This means it is full time 4 wheel drive. Much the same as old 2wd / 4wd switchable systems.
The only difference is LR added a viscose coupling or VCU to the rear propshaft.
This means that a Freelander is effectively running as a FWD until the front tyres slip, the VCU fluid detects the slip and engages the rear drive.
So a Freelander V6 or any other model will drive quite happily as a FWD.
There is no TC lock out. The 4wd system is completely mechanical.
Mine is quite happy as a FWD. I drive it like the for 8 months of the year.

niccage said:

Hi Nodge, engine was running when fluid level checked. I checked that before (with the pump) and pumping fluid all good. I did it a slightly different way but same idea, I d/c one of the unions and put it in to a plastic bottle... clever hey?! No mess..! And fluid is pumping all right. Hi Hippo, I d/c that yellow connector both at the driver's side then the other at the passenger's side after removing the battery and used a multimeter on resistance and spun the wheels manually before I got that result. However I must concede, it wasn't single wheel spin as I trolley jacked the front of the KV6 thus both front wheels in the air and were turning. Come the weekend, I will do that test with one wheel up only, or as you stated, I can lift the wheels very slightly off the ground and use wheel chocks on the passenger's side front wheel. The VCU and prop and IRD output shaft are all removed so no need to worry about the rear wheels. I will put it in to neutral and try that test. Btw, I rang some landrover experts around here including one dealer who put me on to this mechanic not LR but independent but claims to know FL1s very well... he stated that my no drive could be affected by the propshaft and IRD output shaft having been removed - it's a complicated explanation so I will quote verbatim, to me it doesn't make sense, but he stated that "the system on the KV6 suffers from a lack of balance when you remove the propshaft and the IRD output shaft and fit the blanking plug and some safety feature has kicked in and locked the torque converter thus disabling all drive". He thinks I should reinstate the entire propshaft and see what occurs. It doesn't make sense to me as there's a lot of other people such as Hippo that run their KV6es successfully in 2WD mode. Even if there is a "lack of balance" due to the absence of the propshaft for the KV6, how would the KV6 control system be able to tell, does it have eyes behind the rear exhaust manifold?! (lol).. Nuff said, I'll be trying that one wheel test next weekend. I haven't changed the brake light switch. Any other way to test if the brake light switch is the culprit before changing it?

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The wheel test you've done is ok. All yer doing is measuring AC voltage on the sensor pins when turning the wheel. Doesn't matter if props/vcu etc are missing. You just need to be able to turn the wheel yer measuring the ABS sensor on. Measuring AC voltage means yer detecting the wheel turning. Bit like spinning a motor and generating voltage from it (like a generator).

Regarding 2wd... I've run my Freelander v6 in 2wd for a while with no problems. On other Freelanders 1's some have removed the prop and/or the vcu only to find they loose forward/reverse drive. This is because the spline on the gearbox/ird connection has failed because the spine has been stripped oft. Hence even though they were previously connected as 4x4 with the props/vcu fitted, due to the failed stripped spline there was no power to the front wheels. Only power to the rear wheels. Hence why they lost drive when disconnecting the porp etc. I think the stripped spline is said to only happen on manual gearboxes. It's still possible on the auto's. May be just less often.

Regarding v6 balance... the v6 has a lot of power. It can spin wheels easily. I haven't come across a situation where drive is lost due to an imbalance. If the LR dealer who told you this is correct then it would mean you have lost power due to something wrong with the front wheels. The only way it knows if the front wheels are turning is from the longatudal sensor (g sensor wired to abs computer) and the front abs sensors sensing the wheels turning. I don't know if this is possible. Only a through error code read would pick this up, if it generates a code. The only possible imbalance I see is the front left (gear ox side) wheel being driven separately from the drive to the ird. If the computer can put this up when it may not like it. But I'm not sure. Will have a look on my spare broken auto for you.

Can you push the car forwards when it's in neutral? If you can this is good.
Can you push the car forward when it's in park? If you can't this is good.

I ask the above as this is a way of telling if you have mechanical drive from the drive shafts through the ird, through the auto.

If you had 2 or more failed abs sensors this is a problem. Measure all 4 sensors to check they're ok to be sure. It's annoying but a simple test you can do if you can't see inside the abs computer.

I'm currently editing the video's for the green td4 with lost drive. When that's done it will refresh my mind and I will look through this fred again to see if there's any similarities where I may be able to help. Sadly the green td4 was sold on before we solved the problem. Owner was moving.

edit: nodge replied whilst I was typing (and eating)

Hi Hippo, thanks for that. I remember the green TD4, that was the "Duke of Oxley "(landyzone user name).
At first it seemed somewhat similar to my scenario, but I note your comment as follows following your detailed analysis,
"Rave says: "...Failures or malfunctions relating to the sensor, and sensor connections, are detected by the SCS ECU. In the event of failure of two or more of the sensors the SCS ECU switches off the system and illuminates the ABS, TC, EBD, and HDC warning lamps".

For them to be warning lamps would mean the 3 amigos to be lit up in red on the dash.

All my 3 amigos are cautions as are lit up in yellow, all 3, yet it still has no drive.

Definitely not stripped splines on the IRD and/or Jatco. I can visually confirm, but when the guys at Craigs Automotive had the Jatco there, they would have also noticed if that was a problem and would have rung me - just like they noticed one of the stuck broken bolts in one of the holts in the fluid pan bolt holes on the Jatco, I didn't expect they'd fix this as the fluid pan could still go on without leaks with sealant, but they fixed it.

Last weekend I tried that. I Park, i released the hand brake and the freelander wouldn't move when i tried to push it, in Neutral, it moved with the hand brake off.

The ABS system wouldn't play up like that if my brakes weren't bled properly, would it?? I did renew the ABS master cylinder as the prior had the cable holder cracked since me was negligent and putting the main engine cover on the KV6 without much light in the work area... i got it on all right, before a small crunch was heard and the large plastic black cover had taken out the master cylinder where that cable mount is on it. Anyways, I didn't bleed the system didn't get around to it yet. Wonder if there's merit there for further investigation?
Thanks Hippo and everyone else. Sad TD4, i emailed Duke of Oxley and even though he said he sold it to a breaker, he once wrote that perhaps he shouldn't have sold it.... wish he kept it we could see the resolve.
Cheers. Bed time here.... 11.27pm...

As Hippo just said. The Freelander can loose drive to the front. There are 2 ways this can happen.
1st the splined link can fail in the gearbox. All this does is connect the IRD left wheel output to the drive shaft.
2nd an IRD planet gear can fail or it's spine strip, this isn't common however.

Hippo, just on the topic of things, when you ran your KV6 in 2WD, did you fit those snazzy (if i can call them that) blanking plates and do away with both your prop shaft and the IRD output shaft, or did you keep your IRD output shaft on? With what you stated regarding the part where the ABS computer has possibly picked up a slight imbalance with the wheels turning due to the absence of the prop shaft and in my case the ird output shaft as well thus perhaps greater chance that both wheels wont be turning in harmony relative to each other so to speak. Wonder if I should put the IRD output shaft back on this weekend as well just to test that.