At Last The Big TD5 job

I thought the locking compound needed to set before it worked, are you sure threads not stripped it , otherwise it should get tighter did you get the 25Nm

steve2286w said:

I thought the locking compound needed to set before it worked, are you sure threads not stripped it , otherwise it should get tighter did you get the 25Nm

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The locking compound on these bolts is like a hard plastic, it doesn't need to set. In the past I have used PTFE tape it is like an anti vibration device and it keeps out moisture. Liquid locktite needs to set.

Today is the day of the head gasket, set evrything out, final clean and blow down, set up the crane to lower the head and had a practice without the gasket, then time to go.
Lowered the head carefully and put in a couple of bolts to act as guides when the head was only a couple of inches off the block.
put it on the nipped up the bolts finger tight then a nip with the 3/8" drive socket, then onto the procedure, first did the 30Nm fine then the 60NM bit tight then the 90 degrees then the 180 Degrees wow that was tight, I did'nt like the feel of one bolt which went with a bit of a crack towards the end of the stroke. finaly the 45 Degrees.
Wow glad thats done.
Now start putting the bits back

Pushed on today and things were going OK managed to get the oil cooler back, I put a smear of blue Hylomar on the gasket to try and help, decided to put the exhaust manifold on and ooops



Stud sheared, dam I was not forcing it too hard I recon it must be weakened by thermal cycling.
So drilled it and got out the trusty dormer easy outs

It came out fine thank goodness
So I went arround the other side and put some bits on, then ordered some new studs ( full set ) I also put the oil pick up and strainer back on, and could not resist taking out the oil pump bolt and re doing it. Put on the sump that is a bit of a task have to be sure all the little locating lugs go in their holes.
Had enough for today one more push tomorrow and I hope to be nearly there.

Looks really good. I take it you turned it upside down on the stand to put the sump on. If it is hard like that then it must be really hard doing it from underneath the car.

brianconwy said:

Looks really good. I take it you turned it upside down on the stand to put the sump on. If it is hard like that then it must be really hard doing it from underneath the car.

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I did intend to turn it over to do it but I could not get the crankshaft seal on while it was on the engine stand so I had to pick it up on the crane lift it high and do it that way, the gasket wasent perfectly flat so I lifted it up put the bolts in a couple of threads then went round with a torch and made sure all the location lugs were engaged then nipped it up, I did think it might be easier if you stick it to the sump pan with a thin film of silicone first.
I have to admit I'm a bit concerned about the one head bolt that seemed really tight and made a cracking sound as I pulled it up, maybe I am just winding myself up.

I have been pushing on but something is getting on my nerves, when I pulled up the head bolts towards the end some were really tight especially on the exhaust manifold side. When I tightened them some on them gave a slight crack as started to turn but one went much more free feeling as if it had stretched or something bad happened in the threads, some of the ones on the inlet side felt much easier.
I am worried that something let go on the second bolt from the front end on the exhaust side, and I am wondering what to do, new gasket and bolts would be about £90, should I go that way or should I try it and see if the head gasket is OK ? I certainly did blow out the holes before starting I even cut a bit of pipe at an angle to push in the holes and make sure the air blasted them out, and followed the schedule for pulling them up.
I was wondered about trying it and if there’s a problem then do the head with the engine in the car or if the block is damaged then do the whole story again and fit my spare block.

As an example of how this has been chewing at me I decided to take the sump pan off and check that the oil pump drive sprocket was fiddled 100% correctly (it was) and worse during the afternoon I put back the flywheel and clutch using my deluxe clutch alignment tool




Now the more observant among you may notice that something is wrong here, for some reason I had it in my head you can put on the plate which goes on the end of the block after the clutch You cant.


I was going to pack up for the day but in temper I stripped it off and re did it, I blame the nagging doubt with the head bolt.

Its raining this morning and I am going out to see if its possible to get the little endoscope type camera I bought off Tbay down the oil return holes and look at the head bolts where they screw into the block, if I see something then go back and do it again if not then maybe try it.

I've not done this particular job yet, but I've been surprised at how high some of the recommended torque settings are for the TD5 engine. When I did the injector seals and washers I could hardly believe how tight I was supposed to do up the very skinny bolts holding down the injectors. Some of them were a bit sticky and emitted audible 'cracks' as they moved the last few degrees to the recommended torque value. Plus they're just threaded into an alloy casting. However they're still OK 60,000 miles later. The way the TD5 is put together seems to reply on the elasticity of the bolts themselves in many cases (injectors, head, flywheel to crankshaft to name but a few). This provides a kind of spring-loaded fastening effect. Frightens the life out of me, but with OEM quality stuff they should be specified in such a way as to withstand the forces involved.

If it was mine I'd carry on and see if it will run without blowing too badly. The worst that can happen is that at some point you'll need a ride home on a flatbed truck and do a gasket replacement with the engine in situ.

I wouldn't worry about your bolts/holes, I would expect they will be fine but I use an assembly paste under the bolthead when I install head bolts. Click here, ARP.
It stops that pinging and lets you torque up nice and smooth.
I noticed on Elring (I think) gaskets now that the torque sequence was a little different from Land Rover's original advice. Instead of 90, 180, 45 degrees, they say 90, 90, 90, 45.

Brown said:

I've not done this particular job yet, but I've been surprised at how high some of the recommended torque settings are for the TD5 engine. When I did the injector seals and washers I could hardly believe how tight I was supposed to do up the very skinny bolts holding down the injectors. Some of them were a bit sticky and emitted audible 'cracks' as they moved the last few degrees to the recommended torque value. Plus they're just threaded into an alloy casting. However they're still OK 60,000 miles later. The way the TD5 is put together seems to reply on the elasticity of the bolts themselves in many cases (injectors, head, flywheel to crankshaft to name but a few). This provides a kind of spring-loaded fastening effect. Frightens the life out of me, but with OEM quality stuff they should be specified in such a way as to withstand the forces involved.

If it was mine I'd carry on and see if it will run without blowing too badly. The worst that can happen is that at some point you'll need a ride home on a flatbed truck and do a gasket replacement with the engine in situ.

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I think that nearly bolts rely on elasticity to generate the clamping force needed.

brianconwy said:

I think that nearly bolts rely on elasticity to generate the clamping force needed.

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Yes, of course they all do to some extent. Sometimes when you've got really hard bolts in really hard materials (like the ones fastening the crown wheel onto the diff carrier) it feels funny because there's very little deformability - they just go in and then stop. But with a number of fastenings on the TD5 engine you are supposed to get them well into the slope of the Young's Modulus graph. You'll probably remember that from physics at school!

Well I had a look and I'm not happy, all this work cant be for nothing so Im going to take the head back off and check
I used the camera its not very good but I cant convince myself there is not a crack up the side of the threded lug in the block casting see below thebolt is in the bottom right of center and the casting is right in the bottom right side can you see the silver line ?

Looks more like a moulding mark to me!

Alpinejim said:

I wouldn't worry about your bolts/holes, I would expect they will be fine but I use an assembly paste under the bolthead when I install head bolts. Click here, ARP.
It stops that pinging and lets you torque up nice and smooth.
I noticed on Elring (I think) gaskets now that the torque sequence was a little different from Land Rover's original advice. Instead of 90, 180, 45 degrees, they say 90, 90, 90, 45.

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That looks useful - I might try some next time I have a load of high torque fastenings to do up. Then the carefully calibrated torque values will actually turn into clamping force rather than merely pushing against the friction of the bolt against the housing.

I made an order to Turners for new bolts and ordered a new head gasket.
Then re assembled the engine stand and put the engine on it set up everything and took out the head bolts, it was very strange some were quite loose and felt like they would have come out with my 1/2" drive ratchet and some were so tight they were cracking for the first turn, does not seem right to me. Took them all out and lifted off the head, must have been pretty wound up I lifted it off by hand.
I checked the bolt holes there was no sign of a crack and all were more or less dry with a tiny trace of oil in some of them.

Don’t know if I'm happy or livid, but I had decided its no good driving round expecting it to fail at any minute, and worrying that it will fail far from home, I would have been driving with gritted teeth all the time, so just have to take it as bad luck.

Speaking of bad luck, went into the house and found an e mail saying that your turners order has been cancelled ????
Called them and they are on holiday the lady who answered the phone was not able to help me sort it out.
In desperation I re ordered from LR direct.
As I did then I received a mail from Frida at Turners (who are on holiday) saying the order had been process and shipped so could not be cancelled. Called my bank who said the payment was approved immediatly and had gone through
I replied and she helped me sort it out they were pretty fair about this and all should now be well.










Well here's where I am, not been the best of days but just have to take it on the chin and get on with it.

I must say I agree with the idea of tightening up the bolts 90, 90, 90, 45 as mentioned by Alpinejim, that must even up the loading, I found during the 180 degree turn the bolts were difficult and they started to feel wrong, I also will put some moly grease between the heads and the washers to try and reduce the friction and make them turn smoothly.
I do wonder about putting something on the threads but the manual says they are pre lubricated and this is not needed, but at these loads it makes me wonder, only point would be the first two turns at 30Nm and 60Nm could be affected and the angle turns would start from the wrong place.

While you're waiting for the next gasket and bolt set to come, screw a bolt into the holes in the block while the head is off. If there's a hairline crack it might only open and show up with a bolt in it. Plus you can feel how loose or tight the threads are. Given the forces involved, they must suffer a fair amount of wear and tear.

Brown said:

While you're waiting for the next gasket and bolt set to come, screw a bolt into the holes in the block while the head is off. If there's a hairline crack it might only open and show up with a bolt in it. Plus you can feel how loose or tight the threads are. Given the forces involved, they must suffer a fair amount of wear and tear.

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I'll give that a go, I've been scratching about cleaning up stuff and tidying the garage a bit.
When I took the head off some bolts were bang tight and some just felt like they had been pulled up with a ratchet, that cant be right. I looked down the holes and they did not have oil in them, with the new gasket and bolts I will put molly grease between the head and the washer, and maybe some molyslip on the threads to smooth out the action.
One thing I noticed is that when I finally decided to go back and do it again I felt much better, I would not have been happy with it wondering if it would fail at any moment.

Gasket came today expecting the bolts tomorrow, today I took one of the used bolts and after blowing out all the holes again I put a little molyslip paste on the threads and nipped it into each hole in turn, when it hit the bottom I tapped it lightly with a hammer to see if I could hear any difference in the different positions, nothing g I could hear.
So ready to press on when possible.

New bolts arrived at lunch time, had spent the morning getting ready and making room to work.
I put on the new head gasket



I made a chart so that I can tick off all the bolts at each stage and avoid any confusion.
The new bolts looked much better made than the first set I bought they are German made



I put some moly grease under the bolt heads between the head and the washer, then went through all of the stages again, but this time it was very different, the bolts pulled up evenly with no cracks or jolts, and at each stage the force needed seemed prety even for each bolt, I was left feeling that it was better, even if it cost a bit to do it.


Taking a short holiday and building up my strength to put this big ugly lump back. should be back next week.

raywin said:

New bolts arrived at lunch time, had spent the morning getting ready and making room to work.
I put on the new head gasket

View attachment 189272

I made a chart so that I can tick off all the bolts at each stage and avoid any confusion.
The new bolts looked much better made than the first set I bought they are German made

View attachment 189273

I put some moly grease under the bolt heads between the head and the washer, then went through all of the stages again, but this time it was very different, the bolts pulled up evenly with no cracks or jolts, and at each stage the force needed seemed prety even for each bolt, I was left feeling that it was better, even if it cost a bit to do it.

View attachment 189277
Taking a short holiday and building up my strength to put this big ugly lump back. should be back next week.

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Can you please make a video of the first start and running