Rattleguns Series Rebuild

Just had a read through your thread Glyn, awesome stuff. I must say I was well jealous of your rolling chassis earlier on. I drove home trying to work out how to a) build a garage to do something like that and b) justify it to my wife:5bcuss:. By the time I got home I came crashing back to reality One day though for sure.

I have a set of those Kingpin Tyres on my 88 by the way, they went really well in the snow just gone.

Awesome work, be very keen to have a look when your done.:tea:

Cheers
Al

dominicbeesley said:

Wow, keep the pictures coming. Were all the cam lobes that poorly?

I've got a similar engine stand and not used it yet...looking forward to giving it a go. Good luck getting the dissy drive back in, remember that being a right bugger last time, but on a stand like you've got it should be a piece of ****.

While you've got it apart it might be an idea to consider ACR's (or somebody else's) higher compression head for better mileage....

D

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Yes mate, about half the lobes were worn that badly, the poor engine must have been wheezing along! We usually think of worn engines as smokey but this had only moderate bore and valve guide wear and may not have been smoking at all. Makes me wonder how many Series motors are in poor condition with worn cams like this while the owners are putting it down to bad carbs or diesel pumps or something else. It's easy to feel your lobes just remove the inspection plates at the front and rear, one has the lift pump on and the other usually has a filler neck. You don't need to drain the oil, you can then put your fingers in and feel them, to feel the middle two you need to pop the disty out.

Amazingly, the cam for these are the same as a 200tdi, in fact you could fit a 200tdi cam straight into any old series motor if you use the metric retaining bolt too. There's no performance advantage to that in most cases I believe but it is cool that the same cam fits an engine from the 50's and 90's. An OEM replacement is only 50 odd quid too.

The block, crank, head and valves are at Pogsons reconditioners in Cardiff getting a rebore, new pistons/rings, a crank polish, new valve guides, valve recondition and grind and a head facing as the engineer thought a dark area might be some evidence of blowing. It's going to cost about £250 for that little lot which I thought was pretty damn good, considering the engine will be in top condition. I know you could get a 200tdi for that cost maybe, but in what condition really? This is a nice 5 main bearing motor anyway and deserves it I reckon

ronsealdeath said:

Just had a read through your thread Glyn, awesome stuff. I must say I was well jealous of your rolling chassis earlier on. I drove home trying to work out how to a) build a garage to do something like that and b) justify it to my wife:5bcuss:. By the time I got home I came crashing back to reality One day though for sure.

I have a set of those Kingpin Tyres on my 88 by the way, they went really well in the snow just gone.

Awesome work, be very keen to have a look when your done.:tea:

Cheers
Al

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Thanks Al, I'm sure I've seen room for a carport beside your house in your thread Could build one in a weekend eh, lovely jubbly! I'm well jealous that you've got a landy that you can drive about it, that's some kind of dream at the moment! Good to hear about those tyres too!

Rattlegun said:

Thanks Al, I'm sure I've seen room for a carport beside your house in your thread Could build one in a weekend eh, lovely jubbly! I'm well jealous that you've got a landy that you can drive about it, that's some kind of dream at the moment! Good to hear about those tyres too!

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Yeah I'm working on the carport, slowly. I've been told the garage is a no. I was thinking a pop up marquee or similar just for the rainy days as a temp solution. A car port is the way forward though.

Sounds like a good price on that engine work your having done. If you are after any carb bits later on, I have a few Zeniths lying around and various rebuild bits. Have you thought about the carb yet and what your going to do? It is a petrol isn't it??

Rattlegun said:

Yes mate, about half the lobes were worn that badly, the poor engine must have been wheezing along! We usually think of worn engines as smokey but this had only moderate bore and valve guide wear and may not have been smoking at all. Makes me wonder how many Series motors are in poor condition with worn cams like this while the owners are putting it down to bad carbs or diesel pumps or something else. It's easy to feel your lobes just remove the inspection plates at the front and rear, one has the lift pump on and the other usually has a filler neck. You don't need to drain the oil, you can then put your fingers in and feel them, to feel the middle two you need to pop the disty out.

Amazingly, the cam for these are the same as a 200tdi, in fact you could fit a 200tdi cam straight into any old series motor if you use the metric retaining bolt too. There's no performance advantage to that in most cases I believe but it is cool that the same cam fits an engine from the 50's and 90's. An OEM replacement is only 50 odd quid too.

The block, crank, head and valves are at Pogsons reconditioners in Cardiff getting a rebore, new pistons/rings, a crank polish, new valve guides, valve recondition and grind and a head facing as the engineer thought a dark area might be some evidence of blowing. It's going to cost about £250 for that little lot which I thought was pretty damn good, considering the engine will be in top condition. I know you could get a 200tdi for that cost maybe, but in what condition really? This is a nice 5 main bearing motor anyway and deserves it I reckon

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I kept the old cam from my engine when I upgraded to a Hi-torque one from ACR. I know all the cams will swap but I wonder if they're all timed identically. Wasn't sure if mine was junk or not (had a couple of very very slight pits and scratches)...compared to yours it looks brand new!

I know what you mean with people saying series petrol motors are junk and replacing with TDs with a good check over and a tart up they're great motors.

BTW if you're getting you head skimmed it might be worth taking a good amount more off. going from 7:1 or 8:1 up to 9:1 or 9.5:1 compression makes a big difference in efficiency and unless you're going to go driving round India and buying roadside moonshine nearly all modern european petrols are high enough octane.

D

ronsealdeath said:

Yeah I'm working on the carport, slowly. I've been told the garage is a no. I was thinking a pop up marquee or similar just for the rainy days as a temp solution. A car port is the way forward though.

Sounds like a good price on that engine work your having done. If you are after any carb bits later on, I have a few Zeniths lying around and various rebuild bits. Have you thought about the carb yet and what your going to do? It is a petrol isn't it??

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Thanks dude, I've got two Webers and a random one at the mo, I was going to play with them, I've heard the Zeniths give a bit more power though

I've had a look at pop up stuff too, you can get quite a good size pop up for £60 or so, you can justify as a summer garden party tent heheh

Hey Dominic, what's the hi torque cam like? Does it need other mods to go with it? The current head is 8:1 and a tiny bit more once its been refaced I guess. I'm thinking the original cam had some metallurgical problem as its worn so badly while the rest of the motor was still pretty good. It's only from 1983/84 after all! That is 30 years ago though!

its just what happens when hard facing is worn through through poor servicing and or age

Thanks James, do they often go like that?

that one was particulary bad as most wouldnt run the engine as long as that, to get that bad ,but its rare to find a good cam with no wear on the hard facing ,like the rollers and crank etc very hard shell with soft center

Gearboxes........

The box that came in the vehicle was a series 2 box with no synchro, which I didn't really enjoy I'll admit, so I sold that. Over a few months I picked up 3 local boxes for 30 odd quid each. The last one was a bit more than that but came with a new clutch kit which I needed anyway so the gearbox was kind of free. On examining the boxes next to each other, one had a huge amount of backlash and a rough, clacky feel, the next was much smoother and had less backlash, the last had hardly any backlash at all and was as smooth as silk and light to turn. The only problem with that one was 2 holes smashed in the bell housing, so I'm swapping it with one of the others...

Gearbox before pressure washing:



Back in the workshop, bolts and nuts removed from the front input cover plate:



Behind there is the main shaft and lay shaft front bearings, you just need to remove the bolt on the lay shaft and the four bell housing bolts then off it comes:



The layshaft (bottom one) is now loose and could be pulled out, the main splines had no detectable wear and the teeth had no chips or wear spots, good stuff!

Here's a view of the main shaft in the box, I spent quite a while inspecting the teeth and they appear in good nick, the front 3rd/4th synchro unit looks good too, teeth barely worn and the springs are all there. The serrations are still present on the synchro cone clutch which is important apparently. Basically, when you move the gear lever, the bronze ring pushes silently against the cone shape on the next gear and accelerates it up to the same speed as the mainshaft, the gear locking teeth can then slide in without grinding. You can feel it in the car sometimes when you change gear, the lever moves a little bit then after a second, slots in nicely. This is all stuff I've learnt recently, I'm not an expert in these things



The whole thing:



Then I found this



It was in the drain plug and is a tooth from the 2nd gear synchro. It might have to come apart to get to it, not sure if I'm just going to run with it!

The main input shaft bearing is knackered also, there's about 5mm of play at the front end of the shaft, it must have been rumbling terribly. That's peasy to replace though, it's just under these plates (wrongly fitted in this pic hmmmm who did that?). The box was advertised as ex military and low mileage, I'll be honest, I'm fed up of those two terms. Just assume whatever you get is fecked and worn out



I need to buy some bits!

ball bearings do allow a shaft to move ,thats not unusual its actual play or notchy feel when rotated with pressure that shows the need to replace

Rattlegun said:

Hey Dominic, what's the hi torque cam like? Does it need other mods to go with it? The current head is 8:1 and a tiny bit more once its been refaced I guess. I'm thinking the original cam had some metallurgical problem as its worn so badly while the rest of the motor was still pretty good. It's only from 1983/84 after all! That is 30 years ago though!

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It didn't need any other mods according to ACR but I did that, the cam chain and the 2.1 head at the same time. I'd say it has more low-down torque (not likely affected by the head) as it will set off in first with no throttle but would struggle before with 3.54 diffs on. Also I was told it would be crap off-road with 3.54's on but it will climb up a wall in low-ratio with that cam.

Was a bit of an enjoyable (I like messing with engines) faff setting the cam timing with a DTI etc and you need to make sure you have a six-spline cam wheel but I'd say worth it.

It now feels like it would happily go everywhere at 500rpm but could probably do with a heavier flywheel.

I'm no expert though and putting on a diesel/200tdi cam and timing it a bit late might do the same...

I have to say ACR were great, a bit pricey but excellent service and Roland was happy to give advice.

Looking at your cam you could probably araldite a couple of Wurther's Orginals to the cam and get it running better!

Good luck and keep posting!

D

Are you thinking of fitting an overdrive glyn ? My 88 petrol needs one i feel, it's an uncomfortable drive at anything40mph plus! Worth bearing in mind whilst the box is off etc

jamesmartin said:

ball bearings do allow a shaft to move ,thats not unusual its actual play or notchy feel when rotated with pressure that shows the need to replace

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Thanks James, I've had chance to compare it to the other gearbox now as I'm stripping the two side by side to compare parts and the one bearing is noticeably rougher. I'll probably loosely assemble the second box back together for future rebuilding in case I need it for the 109.

ronsealdeath said:

Are you thinking of fitting an overdrive glyn ? My 88 petrol needs one i feel, it's an uncomfortable drive at anything40mph plus! Worth bearing in mind whilst the box is off etc

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That would be nice, they're pretty expensive for an unknown bit of kit. I'll probably have a feel of it once it's going and see how it is. I think I'd go straight for disco diffs as they're cheaper and more likely to be working well I think!

Time for an update, I think I've been busy but sometimes I just think I've done things but I haven't yet, or I dream I have. Going a bit to be honest.

The engine is back from the reconditioners, they said they enjoyed working on it, even though the block is a 2 man lift, probably weighs more than all the fully assembled alloy tonka car engines they had there.

Rebored block:





Head refaced, new valve guides fitted and valve seats recut, you can see the slight halo around the exhaust valves which is a hardened steel insert as it's a factory lead free head:



The crank has been polished as it was within size but had been picking up on the soft metal from the bearings (they said):





The engine was covered in grinding dust from the bore hone when I got it which has taken some time to clean out! I've washed it out and blasted it with water and detergent and degreasants and cleaners several times and pulled everything through that I can and I think I've got it all, I'll give it an oil change soon after its first run I think.

After all that top work I thought it would be a waste to put crap parts in it so I've spent extra for OEM / European parts. Full genuine Land Rover branded parts would have been off the scale though (£120 per piston etc). Bearmach HQ is just over the hill so just called in with a list, they knock 10-15% off in person too.

New Pistons, Rings, Valves, Rollers, Followers, Cam, Water Pump, Gaskets, Plugs, Filter, Seals:



No blue boxes/bags there! The engineering work cost £190 and the parts £280. Not cheap but I'm loving getting it sorted and getting my hands on every part, having never been this far into an engine before. Also, it'll probably be one of the best Series engines in the world when it's done eh! :cool2:

Picked up some gasket sealant yesterday and will be assembling this all next week.

Just in case you wondered what happened to the gearbox, that's still in progress too. After finding that tooth in the oil I decided I wanted to get the full mainbox apart to sort it. I couldn't find any local circlip pliers that would get the massive circlip off the back of the main shaft so got some great big footlong ones off ebay, so hopefully the work on the box can continue...

Hi Glyn I just read through the whole thread, very entertaining. The way you are going you will have a very nice truck when you are done.
Are you keeping the checker plate in the back ?

I don't suppose you would have the price of gaskets, seals, bearing shells and rings to hand would you? I'll need to get some of those those