Jeep Liberty : Reliability, Safety, IFS ??

"Joseph Oberlander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don wrote:
>
> > Sorry if I ****ed anyone off folks - no trolling intended.
> >
> > Paul asked for opinions and I offered mine. Everyone I know that has
had a
> > odern Jeep wishes he hadn't. Now to qualify that - I have not heard
many
> > bad things about the CJ/Wrangler - these were all the Cherokee/Grand
> > Cherokee/Larado (sp?) models.
> >
> > In addition, we bought a bunch of them as construction vehicles to
supervise
> > an off road project - not a lot of mud - just a lot of rough terrain.
>
> For a real project like this I would have gone with a used military
vehicle.
> That Unimog isn't going to break on you, I can guarantee it. Of course,
finding
> one is a bit tough.
>
> www.real4x4.com Now that's a 4*4
>

one of my friends has two old ex-army mogs. one he replaced the engine with
one from a Combine Harvester. lots of low end torque and very little high
end power. so it's never going to stall but he's not very likely to set a
land speed record... lol

rhys

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
>
> "Dan J.S." wrote:
>
> > Let's look at reliability. Look at jdpower.com and compare long term
> > reliability tests of 4 runner vs. explorer. vs jeep grand cherokee. Toyota
> > always comes up on top. Also, I have friends that racked over half a million
> > miles on their 4 runners. This is something American made SUVs just do not
> > do. I think the original poster would be better of spending a little more to
> > get better quality.
>
> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
> but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.
>

I know someone with an 88 that has 430,000 km on it, it works great but
there is virtually none of the original body left on it. Mine only has
140,000 km on it, it's a 93 and to people who don't know how to
differentiate model years it looks like it's only 3 or 4 years old. Of
course I've had it painted a few times and the head gasket went on it
once but other than those few major expensive its been basically put gas
in it and drive. I hope to god I don't have it for 400,000 km though,
I'm pretty bored with it now actually.

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In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> "Nathan Collier" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news[email protected]:
>
> > run
> > them both through the rubicon trail (without stacking rocks) and tell
> > me theyre even. i realize trails such as that are a minority and very
> > few ever see them, but its the capabilities on those very trails that
> > sets jeep apart from the other soft-roaders.
> >
>
> Lets be serious - nobody (at least nobody in their right mind) is buying
> the Liberty to run the Rubicon. Its a road mobile with the capacity to
> handle mud, snow and ice. I bought one because I live on the farm, and need
> 4wd occasionally to get through muddy fields or to the duck blind. The rest
> of teh time, I want a comfortable ride to take my woife out to dinner in.
>
> If I wanted to run the Rubicon, I'd buy a serious off-road mobile like an
> old CJ5 or my old 74 Bronco. But these aren't the vehicles I want for the
> daily commute or even to run to the store for parts.
>

I guess no one is buying one to have forever either. In fact I know 8
people with Libertys, 6 of them are silver (how original). ALL of them
are leased. They do have good power for their weight which is why I
expect to see a few in the ditch this winter
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some other idiot wrote...

>> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
>> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
>> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
make.


On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:07:44 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I know someone with an 88 that has 430,000 km on it, it works great but
>there is virtually none of the original body left on it. Mine only has
>140,000 km on it, it's a 93 and to people who don't know how to
>differentiate model years it looks like it's only 3 or 4 years old. Of
>course I've had it painted a few times and the head gasket went on it
>once but other than those few major expensive its been basically put gas
>in it and drive. I hope to god I don't have it for 400,000 km though,
>I'm pretty bored with it now actually.

Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
come even close.

I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
oil per mile it burns...

Approximately 11/24/03 17:32, C. E. White uttered for posterity:

> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles.

And yet there are people who regularly run their vehivles into
the multiple 100K range. Most tend to pay attention to the
condition of the vehicle, perform reasonable preventative
maintenance, avoid using cheap parts to save a few bucks, and
take care of small items before they become big items. These
seem to be able to do it to pretty much any style of vehicle
or brand.


> However I did once try
> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.

Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
takes care.

> Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
> but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

Whereas I have a rotary with similar miles that still runs nicely.
With the exception of the clutch, thermal reactor, and cat convertor,
none of the major mech components have needed replacement. They
have gotten regular loving care even though not particularly
driven with utmost care. Have also taken a Volvo 164E past the
300K mark with even fewer mech repairs. And a Porsche, which was
slightly cheaper than the Volvo to keep in repair.


--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

DTJ wrote:

> some other idiot wrote...
>
> >> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> >> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
> >> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
>
> Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
> make.

Exactly what do you do to keep relays from failing? How do you keep the stupid
alternator from cooking the internal regulator every summer? What maintenance
do you suggest to keep the A/C from failing? Just how often do you have to
change the transmission fluid in a Toyota transmission to keep it from going
belly up (monthly?)? What treatment would have stopped all the black trim from
fading to white? What should Ii have done to keep the internal plastic from
turning white and cracking in less than 5 years? Is repainting the car routine
maintenance for a Toyota? Did I forget to change the oil in the starter or is
there some sort of magic to keep them going for more than three years? I
don't doubt that someone could drive a 4Runner 500,000 miles, I just doubted
that one had been driven that many miles is the few years they have actually
been available. To be honest I had forgotten about the awful old 2 Door
pick-up based 4Runners Toyota sold in the 80's and was only thinking of the
90's and beyond models.


> Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
> actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
> of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
> miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
> come even close.

Now it is my turn to wonder what you are doing wrong. I can't remember the
last time I had an engine give me any problems and that includes 5 Fords that
went over 130,000 miles (several way over). My Sister has a very nice Civic,
but it already burns more than a quart of oil in 1000 miles and it is no where
near 100,000 miles. Her old '80 Accord also used more than a little oil also.
It never had the chance to make a 100,000 miles (totaled in an accident).
However, all cars burn oil. Some more than others, but anytime someone says
their car doesn't burn a drop, I suggest that they think about how piston
engines lubricate the pistons and valves.

> I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
> because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
> oil per mile it burns...

I don't know about Cadillacs, but my 1997 Expedition easily made it to 100,000
with nothing more than regular oil and filter changes. I did change the plugs
at 100,000 miles, but the one I took out looked perfect. Also, I did have to
replace the alternator at around 101,000 miles, but that sure beat the Toyota
I owned that needed a new one every summer.

Ed

Lon Stowell wrote:

> > However I did once try
> > to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
>
> Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
> sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
> first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
> takes care.

It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black
trim needed replacing, interior plastic turned white, one power antenna, last
straw was transmission (fluid had been changed 3 times in 80,000 miles). It
was a POS from day one. It was the least satisfactory car I ever owned. I
have had less reliable cars, but never one than combined dull looks, horrible
handling, uncomfortable interior, and unreliability all in one horrible
combination. Oh what a feeling. Oh yeah, the engine was still running fine.

Ed

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
>
> Lon Stowell wrote:
>
> > > However I did once try
> > > to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> >
> > Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
> > sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
> > first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
> > takes care.
>
> It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
> an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black

Just a shot in the dark but it sounds like you mechanic didn't diagnose
the initial charging problem that may have went on to kill all those
things. (except the cosmetics of course)

> trim needed replacing, interior plastic turned white, one power antenna, last
> straw was transmission (fluid had been changed 3 times in 80,000 miles). It
> was a POS from day one. It was the least satisfactory car I ever owned. I
> have had less reliable cars, but never one than combined dull looks, horrible
> handling, uncomfortable interior, and unreliability all in one horrible
> combination. Oh what a feeling. Oh yeah, the engine was still running fine.
>
> Ed
>
>

Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.
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Chris Phillipo wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> >
> >
> > Lon Stowell wrote:
> >
> > > > However I did once try
> > > > to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> > >
> > > Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
> > > sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
> > > first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
> > > takes care.
> >
> > It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
> > an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black
>
> Just a shot in the dark but it sounds like you mechanic didn't diagnose
> the initial charging problem that may have went on to kill all those
> things. (except the cosmetics of course)

The problem was a crappy design. Toyota wedged the alternator next to
exhaust manifold in an area with virtually no air flow. As long as the
ex worked, we had no problems. When she worked, She only drove
realitively long distances in relatively cool weather. As soon as she
became a stay at home Mom, the alternator failed every August - always
in the middle of the day while she was poking around town. Replacement
alternators were hard to find. The generous folks at Toyota only sold
new $500+ replacements. None of the local parts stores listed a rebuild.
Finally I took it to a local rebuilder. He took one look at and without
me saying a word told me what car it came off of and why it was failing.
He also said it was very common. You want to hear about the crappy
starter? Another 500+ Toyota only part. The contact in the solenoid
burned out. The alternator rebuilder knew all about those also. He
carried the parts to fix them. The stupid A/C condensor just started
leaking for no apparent reason. The window switches just disassembled
themselves. It was a rolling pile of crap as far as I was concerned.

> Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
> I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.

No it was a Cressida. An overpriced piece of junk.

Ed

Troll.


On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:02:49 GMT, DTJ <[email protected]> wrote:

>some other idiot wrote...
>
>>> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
>>> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
>>> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
>
>Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
>make.
>
>
>On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:07:44 -0400, Chris Phillipo
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I know someone with an 88 that has 430,000 km on it, it works great but
>>there is virtually none of the original body left on it. Mine only has
>>140,000 km on it, it's a 93 and to people who don't know how to
>>differentiate model years it looks like it's only 3 or 4 years old. Of
>>course I've had it painted a few times and the head gasket went on it
>>once but other than those few major expensive its been basically put gas
>>in it and drive. I hope to god I don't have it for 400,000 km though,
>>I'm pretty bored with it now actually.
>
>Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
>actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
>of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
>miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
>come even close.
>
>I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
>because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
>oil per mile it burns...

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 04:00:01 GMT, "C. E. White"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Chris Phillipo wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>> >
>> >
>> > Lon Stowell wrote:
>> >
>> > > > However I did once try
>> > > > to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
>> > >
>> > > Any owner that can't get 80,000 miles out of pretty much any car
>> > > sold in the last 3 decades shouldn't be allowed near cars in the
>> > > first place. I've gotten over 200K on an old 60's Chev. Just
>> > > takes care.
>> >
>> > It less than 80,000 miles we replaced one starter, 3 alternators, 3 relays,
>> > an A/C condenser, several power window switches, 1 paint job, all the black
>>
>> Just a shot in the dark but it sounds like you mechanic didn't diagnose
>> the initial charging problem that may have went on to kill all those
>> things. (except the cosmetics of course)
>
>The problem was a crappy design. Toyota wedged the alternator next to
>exhaust manifold in an area with virtually no air flow. As long as the
>ex worked, we had no problems. When she worked, She only drove
>realitively long distances in relatively cool weather. As soon as she
>became a stay at home Mom, the alternator failed every August - always
>in the middle of the day while she was poking around town. Replacement
>alternators were hard to find. The generous folks at Toyota only sold
>new $500+ replacements. None of the local parts stores listed a rebuild.
>Finally I took it to a local rebuilder. He took one look at and without
>me saying a word told me what car it came off of and why it was failing.
>He also said it was very common. You want to hear about the crappy
>starter? Another 500+ Toyota only part. The contact in the solenoid
>burned out. The alternator rebuilder knew all about those also. He
>carried the parts to fix them. The stupid A/C condensor just started
>leaking for no apparent reason. The window switches just disassembled
>themselves. It was a rolling pile of crap as far as I was concerned.
>
>> Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
>> I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.
>
>No it was a Cressida. An overpriced piece of junk.
>
>Ed



People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:27:53 GMT, "C. E. White"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>DTJ wrote:
>
>> some other idiot wrote...
>>
>> >> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
>> >> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
>> >> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
>>
>> Your inability to take care of a vehicle does not an impartial study
>> make.
>
>Exactly what do you do to keep relays from failing? How do you keep the stupid
>alternator from cooking the internal regulator every summer? What maintenance
>do you suggest to keep the A/C from failing? Just how often do you have to
>change the transmission fluid in a Toyota transmission to keep it from going
>belly up (monthly?)? What treatment would have stopped all the black trim from
>fading to white? What should Ii have done to keep the internal plastic from
>turning white and cracking in less than 5 years? Is repainting the car routine
>maintenance for a Toyota? Did I forget to change the oil in the starter or is
>there some sort of magic to keep them going for more than three years? I
>don't doubt that someone could drive a 4Runner 500,000 miles, I just doubted
>that one had been driven that many miles is the few years they have actually
>been available. To be honest I had forgotten about the awful old 2 Door
>pick-up based 4Runners Toyota sold in the 80's and was only thinking of the
>90's and beyond models.

I understand now - you thought you bought a Toyota, but it really was
a Ford.

>> Honda and Toyota are two of the extremely few companies that can
>> actually build an engine. Ford, Chrysler, GM, Mercedes, and a bunch
>> of others just suck. Every Honda I have owned has gone over 100,000
>> miles without burning a drop of oil. I have never had an American car
>> come even close.
>Now it is my turn to wonder what you are doing wrong. I can't remember the
>last time I had an engine give me any problems and that includes 5 Fords that
>went over 130,000 miles (several way over). My Sister has a very nice Civic,
>but it already burns more than a quart of oil in 1000 miles and it is no where
>near 100,000 miles. Her old '80 Accord also used more than a little oil also.
>It never had the chance to make a 100,000 miles (totaled in an accident).
>However, all cars burn oil. Some more than others, but anytime someone says
>their car doesn't burn a drop, I suggest that they think about how piston
>engines lubricate the pistons and valves.

You obviously are a liar and a troll. Nobody on the planet believes
that you could possibly have owned the 5 Fords made since 1900 that
actually were well made.

>> I laugh at Cadillac saying 100,000 without a tune up. Sure, but just
>> because the plugs are still firing doesn't make up for the 3 quarts of
>> oil per mile it burns...
>
>I don't know about Cadillacs, but my 1997 Expedition easily made it to 100,000
>with nothing more than regular oil and filter changes. I did change the plugs
>at 100,000 miles, but the one I took out looked perfect. Also, I did have to
>replace the alternator at around 101,000 miles, but that sure beat the Toyota
>I owned that needed a new one every summer.

Now we know you are lying. First, you say you changed the "plugs",
then you say the "one you took out" looked perfect, which anybody who
has ever changed a plug knows is bull****.

Go back to troll land moron.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:45:55 -0700, AZGuy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
>150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
>mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
>never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
>more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.

Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
Toyota to go 300,000 miles.

My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
miles.

"DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:45:55 -0700, AZGuy <[email protected]>
.. On the other hand,
> EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
> miles.

You call the others liers and then make a statement like this.

> alternators were hard to find. The generous folks at Toyota only sold
> new $500+ replacements. None of the local parts stores listed a rebuild.
> Finally I took it to a local rebuilder. He took one look at and without
> me saying a word told me what car it came off of and why it was failing.
> He also said it was very common. You want to hear about the crappy
> starter? Another 500+ Toyota only part. The contact in the solenoid
> burned out. The alternator rebuilder knew all about those also. He
> carried the parts to fix them. The stupid A/C condensor just started
> leaking for no apparent reason. The window switches just disassembled
> themselves. It was a rolling pile of crap as far as I was concerned.
>
> > Are we talking about a 4 runner here or something else? I don't think
> > I've met the person who had to rebuild a 4 Runner transmission yet.
>
> No it was a Cressida. An overpriced piece of junk.
>
> Ed
>

So you paid over $30,000 for a car over 10 years ago and you think that
$500 would be a bit much for an alternator or starter on a car in the
same class as the BMW 5 series? Let me let you in on a few secrets. AC
systems fail, they fail on 5 day old cars, they fail on 5 year old cars.
Second, if you have an exhaust heat problem, fixing the symptoms is not
going to fix the problem. You either had a bad heat shield or a rich
running condition. And third, I don't know what any of this has to do
with the reliability of 4 runners so why you brought it up is beyond me.
My advice, spend half as much on a car next time and feel 1/4 of the
buyers remorse.
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> >
>
> So you paid over $30,000 for a car over 10 years ago and you think that
> $500 would be a bit much for an alternator or starter on a car in the
> same class as the BMW 5 series? Let me let you in on a few secrets. AC
> systems fail, they fail on 5 day old cars, they fail on 5 year old cars.
> Second, if you have an exhaust heat problem, fixing the symptoms is not
> going to fix the problem. You either had a bad heat shield or a rich

Opps, that should read "lean running condition".
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Around 11/30/2003 4:32 PM, Douglas A. Shrader wrote:

> "DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:45:55 -0700, AZGuy <[email protected]>
>
> . On the other hand,
>
>>EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
>>miles.
>
>
> You call the others liers and then make a statement like this.
>
>

Seriously. That's either a case of neglect, or just plain bad luck.

I've driven my Mustang almost 50,000 miles (about 98,500 on the clock),
and aside from "oil, gas, brakes and tires", I've only spent about $600
on mechanical repairs.

It is not unusual to find 500,000 mile Ford taxis and police cars. Nor
is it unusual to find 100,000 mile 5.0 FoMoCo vehicles (Mustangs,
T-birds, full-sized cars, trucks, etc.) with lots of life left.

It all comes down to basic maintenance; neglect any car, and it's not
going to last. And, true, once in a while you get a true lemon, but
they're nowhere near as common as popular belief would dictate.


--
~/Garth |"I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.
Almgren | I believe it is better to be free than to be a slave.
******* | And I believe it is better to know than to be ignorant."
^(To e-mail me, look in a mirror) - Henry Louis Mencken (1880-1956)

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:00:21 GMT, DTJ <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:45:55 -0700, AZGuy <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
>>150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
>>mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
>>never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
>>more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.
>
>Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
>vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
>Toyota to go 300,000 miles.
>
>My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
>oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
>EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
>miles.


Really. You are indeed the consummate asshole. Only an asshole like
you would pay $20,000 for a vehicle and then another $25,000 to
maintain it. I think your own statements prove you are a dickless
Troll.

Approximately 11/30/03 12:00, DTJ uttered for posterity:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:45:55 -0700, AZGuy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
>>150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
>>mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
>>never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
>>more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.
>
> Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
> vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
> Toyota to go 300,000 miles.
>
> My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
> oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
> EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
> miles.

Umm, not to question your credibility and record keeping here,
but that would be roughly equivalent to something like a full
engine rebuild roughly every two years. Unless you have the
unfortunate habit of buying such classics as the 8-4-2 Cadillac
or worse the diesel Oldsmobile, you must have the luck level of
Joe Bfstplk.

--
Still a Raiders fan, but no longer sure why.

DTJ wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:45:55 -0700, AZGuy <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >People will spend $5000 to make their toyota/honda/nissan make it to
> >150K. But if they have to spend $2500 on their Ford for the same
> >mileage they start screaming how awful Fords are and how they will
> >never buy another one. Not to mention that they probably paid $2500
> >more for the "import" then for the Ford in the first place.
>
> Hey trollboy, statistics show that the cost to get an "American made"
> vehicle to 100,000 miles is 3 times as much as getting a Honda or
> Toyota to go 300,000 miles.

How about some backup to this statistic? It sound like BS to me.

> My own experience, no Honda I have owned has ever needed more than
> oil, gas, brakes and tires to go 100,000 miles. On the other hand,
> EVERY American car I have owned has cost me at least $5000 per 20,000
> miles.

I have not spend $5000 on mechanical repairs on all the Fords I have
owned in my life (34 years of driving, 13 Fords). At least 3 of those
exceeded 140,000 miles while I owned them and only five had less than
90,000. In addition, in the last 34 years, the rest of may family has
owned 15 Fords, and all of them plus all of mine added together have not
required $5000 worth of repairs in total. In terms of money spent on
repairs, the worst tree cars I owned were all Japanes - Toyota Cressida,
Datsun 280Z, Mazada 626 in that order. The worst American car I owned was
a Plymouth Reliant, but all the problems I had (and there were many) were
handled by the warranty (they never had to fix the same problem twice).
In terms of out of warranty repiar costs, paid by me, the following list
is from worst to best repair costs are estimates and are from memory and
probably not particualrly accurate):

Car (new/used, approximate reapir expenses, mileage when disposed)
'83 Toyota Cressida (new, $3000, 80k miles) - sold
'75 Datsun 280 Z (new, $1500, 50k miles) - sold to friend
'83 Mazda 626 (new, $1100, 60k miles) - sold to Sister
'92 F150 (new, $1000, 92k miles) - currently own
'75 Jensen Healey (used, $900, parts, 20k miles) - sold
'74 Jensen Healey (used, $800, parts, 15k miles) - sold
'97 Ford Expedition (new, $600, 150k miles) - traded on 2003 Expedition
'81 Audi Coupe (new, $500, 50k miles) - traded on Mada 626
'86 Mercury Sable (new, $400, 140k miles) - sold to friend
'78 Ford Fiesta (used, $300, 140k miles) - sold
'72 Ford Pinto (new, $200, 100K miles) - sold
'86 Ford Ranger (used, $100, 90k miles) - wrecked/sold
'01 Ford Mustang (new, $70, 37k miles) - traded on Vue
'78 Ford Couirer (used, $0, 90k miles) - sold
'89 Ford Taurus (new, $0, 30k miles) - ex got in divorce
'78 Ford Fairmont (new, $0, 36k miles) - sold
'81 Plymouth Reliant (new, $0, 18k miles) - traded on Audi Coupe
'73 Ford Pinto (used, $0, 90k miles) - sold to friend
'03 Ford Expedition (new, $0, 37k miles) - currently own
'03 Saturn Vue (new, $0, 6k miles) - currently own
'95 Ford Explorer (new, $0, 32K miles) - traded for '97 Expedition

The lsit does not include routine maintenace and wear items (brake pads,
etc.).

My Sister has owned two Hondas ('80 Accord, '97 Civic). Both have been
excellent cars. However both have need some minor repairs. The current
Civic has around 50k miles and so far has needed plug wires, a muffler,
and couple of interior plastic parts that broke off. The paint on her
bumper is flaking off and the engine consume some oil (1 quart in 1k
miles or so). I replaced the plug wires and muffler, so her total repair
bill to date is less than $200 (parts only). So on my list, it rates
about the same as a 1972 Pinto.

Ed