Jeep Liberty : Reliability, Safety, IFS ??

"Nathan Collier" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "John Welch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Liberty and
> > Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock
Stock, dude, did you get that part, it is a stock (including stock
tires) wrangler.
>
> youve never truly tested the capabilities of your wrangler.
I work for Halliburton, not DC. I have a Liberty, a Wrangler, and a
Willys pick up, and Ford 600 tractor, 50 head of cattle and 200+ acres
of land to keep an eye on. In the past, I have had a Willys forward
control. Getting a jeep stuck is something (my wife thinks) I am
pretty good at. As a consequense, I know a little bit about
un-sticking one of them.

I planted this Wrangler down to the frame in mud on the way to the
beaver dam back Christmas of 01. My wife, her sister and wife's
brother in law were passengers and got to watch the festivities.
Having to call Grandmother on the cell phone to bring a tractor and a
winch pretty much demonstrates the limits of a (stock, get that part
through your head) wrangler.

Now, like I said, Me and the wife and the 49 Willys (a real Jeep) beat
the tulies all over south western Montana back in 80. Since then we
have had all kinds of fun all kinds of places. For what it is worth,
the Willys probablly would not have made it through there either.

Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture
is a decent chalenge and a fair place to do a head to head comparison.
It is 12+ feet deep, a mix of loose sand, mud, and big ruts that you
have to pick the right line through to keep from high centering. It
is just down and up, but it is a good place to make girls squeal. I
drive both the liberty and the wrangler through there all the time to
check on the cows. The liberty is a much more pleasant, secure ride.
I think that it is all to do with the difference between selectrac on
the Liberty as opposed to command trac on the Wrangler rather than ifs
vs solid axel. I am sure it is not the Liberty's sun roof, but it
might be the butt warmer.

I am starting to wonder though, am I the only one in this news group
that has taken a Liberty off road? Mine is still pretty new and wife
is quite possesive of it, but once the new wears off I aim to put
750-16 Farm Bureau mud tires all the way round on it and lock at least
the rear and then start having a little 'real fun'.

"Jerry McG" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Pure bullsh*t.<
>
> Indeed, the later model YJs, XJs, and TJs are extraordinarily reliable
> vehicles. 200k miles on a moderately maintained Cherokee or YJ is not
> unusual at all, and TJs seem to run like a top forever.
I sure hope so. I agonized with the wife over the decision to
resurect the wrangler after daughter with the purple hair totaled it.
I need 80k of daily driven miles to see the kids through thier
schooling. I am hopeful that the wrangler will hold up as well a
willys.

"John Welch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am starting to wonder though, am I the only one in this news group
> that has taken a Liberty off road?

ive only seen 1 or 2 on the trail, and ive _never_ seen one on an
"aggressive" trail such as tellico. aside from a toyota tacoma, im sure the
liberty is comparable to most any IFS 4x4 on the market in terms of off road
capability. that said, theres nothing "special" about it that would rank it
even with the tj, arguably the most capable swb jeep ever built (stock).
the clearance (for the wheelbase) is lacking (even before daimler lowered it
2 more inches in '02), the IFS components are "short arm" components..... to
say its comparable to a wrangler says youve never pushed the tj to its
limits. getting stuck in the mud isnt a true test of off road prowess. run
them both through the rubicon trail (without stacking rocks) and tell me
theyre even. i realize trails such as that are a minority and very few ever
see them, but its the capabilities on those very trails that sets jeep apart
from the other soft-roaders.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com

I saw one on Engineer Pass in CO. I was stunned to say the least.
Engineer isn't the most difficult trail in CO, to say the least, but
it's no mall parking lot either.

Nathan Collier wrote:

> "John Welch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I am starting to wonder though, am I the only one in this news group
>>that has taken a Liberty off road?
>
>
> ive only seen 1 or 2 on the trail, and ive _never_ seen one on an
> "aggressive" trail such as tellico. aside from a toyota tacoma, im sure the
> liberty is comparable to most any IFS 4x4 on the market in terms of off road
> capability. that said, theres nothing "special" about it that would rank it
> even with the tj, arguably the most capable swb jeep ever built (stock).
> the clearance (for the wheelbase) is lacking (even before daimler lowered it
> 2 more inches in '02), the IFS components are "short arm" components..... to
> say its comparable to a wrangler says youve never pushed the tj to its
> limits. getting stuck in the mud isnt a true test of off road prowess. run
> them both through the rubicon trail (without stacking rocks) and tell me
> theyre even. i realize trails such as that are a minority and very few ever
> see them, but its the capabilities on those very trails that sets jeep apart
> from the other soft-roaders.
>

--
___________________________________________________________
tw
03 TJ Rubicon
01 XJ Sport

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
-- Dave Barry

Pronunciation: 'jEp
Function: noun
Date: 1940

Etymology: probably from g. p. (abbreviation of general purpose)
A small general-purpose motor vehicle with 80-inch wheelbase,
1/4-ton capacity, and four-wheel drive used by the U.S. army in
World War II.

http://www.7slotgrille.com/jeepers/tj/twaldron/index.html
(Please remove the OBVIOUS to reply by email)
___________________________________________________________

"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<w1Wvb.993$ZE1.110@fed1read04>...
> If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
> the CJ a -10.
>
> Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there - most
> Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
> exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.
>
> Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.
>
>
>
>
> "Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> > discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> > is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> > that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
> >
> > Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> > vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> > safety features?
> >
> >
> > Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> > commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> > climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> > reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> > would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> > start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> > has this problem )
> >
> >
> > I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> > suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> > reliability?
> >
> > Thank you all for your help,
> >
> > Paul Thomas


troll

welcome to killfile land

> It doesn't work that way. If it did, the Explorer would have the worst
rating.
> It doesn't. The injury loss rating is based on the dollar loss per million
> registered vehicles attributable to injury and then is normalized so that
the
> average vehicle has an injury loss rating of 100. The 200-2002 4WD 4Runner
has
> an injury loss rating of 91 (which is better than the average for all
vehicles),
> but a 4 Door 4WD Explorer's rating is only 71 (lower is better). The
average for
> all mid-sized 4WD SUVs is 76.
>
> Even worse is the roll over performance of the 4Runner. A 4DR, 4WD
Explorer has
> a driver death rating due to rollovers of 26. The 4Runner has a rating of
86.
> (the rate is deaths in single-vehicle crashes involving rollover per
million
> registered vehicle years). I can't see how the press trashed Explorers for
> rollovers and ignored the far more dangerous 4Runner. I hope the new
4Runner is
> better, but from what I can read, it is little more that a new body
sitting on
> the same tired old chassis. And in fact it may be worse since they
increased the
> weight and added a heavier , more powerful engine as an option. It seems
to me
> that the Japanese SUVs are getting a free ride when it comes to Safety. In
every
> category of SUV they rank near the bottom of injury rates.
>
> Oh what a feeling.
>
> Ed
>

With the XReas on the new 4 runner, it's almost impossible to make it roll
over. Also, they made other safety adjustments.

Let's look at reliability. Look at jdpower.com and compare long term
reliability tests of 4 runner vs. explorer. vs jeep grand cherokee. Toyota
always comes up on top. Also, I have friends that racked over half a million
miles on their 4 runners. This is something American made SUVs just do not
do. I think the original poster would be better of spending a little more to
get better quality.

Don't get me wrong, Ford's F150 is a fairly reliable truck, and Ford is
trying hard to gain. However, current Jeeps and Chrysler products are
spinning their wheels.

"Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:63Wvb.5588$Bk1.1054@fed1read05...
> Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.
>
> --
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5 stars
for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These numbers
do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many times.

"Dan J.S." wrote:

> Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5 stars
> for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These numbers
> do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
> used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many times.

How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs or
Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the same
factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
ratings.

In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of the
advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example if you
comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower than
the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated nearly
the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are for all
practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more reliable than
an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the Explorer.
Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.

Ed

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "Dan J.S." wrote:
>
> > Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5
stars
> > for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These
numbers
> > do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
> > used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many
times.
>
> How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs
or
> Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the
same
> factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
> ratings.
>
> In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of
the
> advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example
if you
> comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower
than
> the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated
nearly
> the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are
for all
> practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more
reliable than
> an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the
Explorer.
> Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.
>
> Ed
>

Buicks and Lincolns are all premium brands, and there is an extra layer of
QC when putting them together. It's like comparing Toyota and the Lexus
line. Look at how many buicks are put out in 24 men hours and how many
pontiacs. Right now, the average is something like 1.5 pontiacs per 24 hours
vs 1 buick in the same 24 hour period. What I mean is it takes 24 hours to
build one buick and something like 12-14 hours to build one pontiac (all men
hours, actual times are obviously less). It's very similar to Ford and the
Lincoln brands. I am getting these stats from April 2003 AutoWeek magazine.

"Dan J.S." wrote:

> Let's look at reliability. Look at jdpower.com and compare long term
> reliability tests of 4 runner vs. explorer. vs jeep grand cherokee. Toyota
> always comes up on top. Also, I have friends that racked over half a million
> miles on their 4 runners. This is something American made SUVs just do not
> do. I think the original poster would be better of spending a little more to
> get better quality.

I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

> Don't get me wrong, Ford's F150 is a fairly reliable truck, and Ford is
> trying hard to gain. However, current Jeeps and Chrysler products are
> spinning their wheels.

Ed

"Dan J.S." wrote:
>
> "C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > "Dan J.S." wrote:
> >
> > > Look at jdpower.com - facts do not lie. 2002 Jeep Wrangler, 2 out of 5
> stars
> > > for mechanical quality. 2 out of 5 for mechanical reliability. These
> numbers
> > > do not lie. Jeep is a great name, Chryco managed to turn it into crap. I
> > > used to be a jeep fan, until a jeep left me stranded once too many
> times.
> >
> > How do you explain that Buicks show up as nuch more reliable than Pontiacs
> or
> > Oldsmobiles? These different brands are built by the same poeple in the
> same
> > factories using mostly the same parts, but they have different reliability
> > ratings.
> >
> > In my opinion, the JD Powers surveys are more a measure of the success of
> the
> > advertising campaign than of the performance of the vehicles. For example
> if you
> > comapare a 4Runner, Explorer, and Mountaineer, the Explorer is rated lower
> than
> > the 4Runner in a couple of categories. However, the Mountaineer is rated
> nearly
> > the same as a 4Runner - how can that be? The Explorer and Moutaineer are
> for all
> > practical purposes the same vehicle. A Mountaineer is not any more
> reliable than
> > an Explorer, yet it was rated the same as the 4Runner and above the
> Explorer.
> > Clearly the JD Power ratings are nearly meaningless.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
> Buicks and Lincolns are all premium brands, and there is an extra layer of
> QC when putting them together. It's like comparing Toyota and the Lexus
> line. Look at how many buicks are put out in 24 men hours and how many
> pontiacs. Right now, the average is something like 1.5 pontiacs per 24 hours
> vs 1 buick in the same 24 hour period. What I mean is it takes 24 hours to
> build one buick and something like 12-14 hours to build one pontiac (all men
> hours, actual times are obviously less). It's very similar to Ford and the
> Lincoln brands. I am getting these stats from April 2003 AutoWeek magazine.

Several models are built at the same time in the same factory by the
same people. All the parts are virtually the same (engines,
transmissions, suspension). For instance, the Orion Assembly Plant
builds Pontiac Bonnevilles, Buick LaSabres, Buick Park Avenues, and
Oldsmobile Aurora concurrently. There is no way they are spending 50%
more time on the Buicks than on the Pontiacs at that factory. I suppose
it you averaged all Pontiac models together and all Buick models
together the Buick models might take more time on average, but I do not
believe that the difference exists for models built on the same assembly
line. If you go to JD Powers site and compare the 2001 Bonneville, Park
Avenue and Aurora, you will see that the results are all over the place.
If this was a true gauge of reliability, they should be almost
identical. But in some categories one car is a 5, another a 3, and the
third a 2. This just illustrates how faulty this particular survey
methodology is. So claiming that a Toyota is better because of this
survey is silly.

Regards,

Ed White

C. E. White did pass the time by typing:

> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
> but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.

A coworkers Honda Civic just passed the 400,000 mile mark, but that
car does look like a rolling rustbucket. He's waiting for one of
those push-pull-drag tradein days.

My old C-10 chevy had 200,000 miles before I sold it in 93 and even then
it only had minor rust in the cab corners. The Jeep ZJ has 109,000 on it.

High milage isn't impossible if the owner takes proper care of the
vehicle. Regular maintenance, keeping the dirt from blocking drains,
staying away from crazy drivers, and living outside the rust-belt helps.

--
-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond
HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks
Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles.

i had an 86 4 runner that i took past 400,000 miles (in commercial usage,
many times loaded way beyond capacity) before selling it on the original
internals. i went through many alternators, water pumps, and starters but
thats it. i removed the valve cover to adjust the valves but beyond that,
no wrenches ever touched the engine. the 22r/re is an amazing engine.

--
Nathan W. Collier
http://7SlotGrille.com
http://UtilityOffRoad.com

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:57:58 UTC [email protected] (John Welch)
wrote:

> Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture
> is a decent chalenge and a fair place to do a head to head comparison.
> It is 12+ feet deep, a mix of loose sand, mud, and big ruts that you
> have to pick the right line through to keep from high centering. It
> is just down and up, but it is a good place to make girls squeal. I
> drive both the liberty and the wrangler through there all the time to
> check on the cows. The liberty is a much more pleasant, secure ride.
> I think that it is all to do with the difference between selectrac on
> the Liberty as opposed to command trac on the Wrangler rather than ifs
> vs solid axel. I am sure it is not the Liberty's sun roof, but it
> might be the butt warmer.

12+ feet? That's a river, not a creek Where do you store the
snorkles? Oh, you mean the cut, not the water depth. My problem with
fording a ditch like that is usually the approach/depature angles
since I seem to hang the bumper on one end or the other so that's
gives the Wrangler a definte edge.

--
Will Honea <[email protected]>

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote

> I have never driven any car 500,000 miles and find it hard to believe
> that a 4Runner has been driven that many miles. However I did once try
> to get a Toyota to 80,000 miles. It was a miserable expensive disaster.
> Oh what a feeling. My SO did manage to get a Camry over 300,000 miles,
> but it was a rolling pieces of oil spewing junk when she replaced it.
>

Outside of Ford and Jeep, there are very few USA made 4WDs here in NZ, Most
vehicles are japanese. I've owned a Mitsi with over 250,000Km on it, and it
was in fine condition and running well. That eventually got written off in a
crash. There are many pre '85 Jap cars with over 400,000Km no the roads
here. and I know of one Nissan with over 1 Million Km.

We don't have salted roads here in winter, so they only have to deal with
sea winds.

If you want real reliability however, You can't beat the Holdens.

rhys

"Nathan Collier" <[email protected]> wrote in
news[email protected]:

> run
> them both through the rubicon trail (without stacking rocks) and tell
> me theyre even. i realize trails such as that are a minority and very
> few ever see them, but its the capabilities on those very trails that
> sets jeep apart from the other soft-roaders.
>

Lets be serious - nobody (at least nobody in their right mind) is buying
the Liberty to run the Rubicon. Its a road mobile with the capacity to
handle mud, snow and ice. I bought one because I live on the farm, and need
4wd occasionally to get through muddy fields or to the duck blind. The rest
of teh time, I want a comfortable ride to take my woife out to dinner in.

If I wanted to run the Rubicon, I'd buy a serious off-road mobile like an
old CJ5 or my old 74 Bronco. But these aren't the vehicles I want for the
daily commute or even to run to the store for parts.

"Nathan Collier" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "John Welch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Liberty and
> > Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock
>
> youve never truly tested the capabilities of your wrangler.
So what. I *HAVE* tested the capabilities of the Willys. I have also
busted it lots of time out in the tulies. The Wrangler has fewer
things I could not begin to fix than does the Liberty (like the stupid
sun roof), but as far as 'sure footed-ness' the Liberty is at least
even, probablly due to the selectract. One of the most important
'capabilities' of 'real' jeep is its ability to last 60 years and
still be kicking ass. Liberty will probablly fail this test, but we
will see.

"Will Honea" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 02:57:58 UTC [email protected] (John Welch)
> wrote:
>
> > Now on the other hand, fording the creek to get into the east pasture
[...]
>
> 12+ feet? That's a river, not a creek Where do you store the
> snorkles? Oh, you mean the cut, not the water depth. My problem with
> fording a ditch like that is usually the approach/depature angles
> since I seem to hang the bumper on one end or the other so that's
> gives the Wrangler a definte edge.
Actually, the tail pipe of the wrangler is under water going
blub-blub-blub while I am trying to straightn up and get a bite of
something that will let it climb up the other side. Every other time
through the Wrangler spins out, so it is rock back and forth, etc.
Liberty does not loose traction. No problem with approach or
departure. Probablly the selectrac.

Plans are to take both vehicles and a camcorder up to the farm after
eating too much bird on t-day and getting some real ground-truth
(remote sensing lingo that). I will try to get a web page built. I
suggested to wife we hook up the two rigs with a tow strap across the
creek and play 'tug of war.' Her response was not fit to post. I
think I can get my nephews interested. Weather should be muddy but
not to cold.

Sorry if I ****ed anyone off folks - no trolling intended.

Paul asked for opinions and I offered mine. Everyone I know that has had a
odern Jeep wishes he hadn't. Now to qualify that - I have not heard many
bad things about the CJ/Wrangler - these were all the Cherokee/Grand
Cherokee/Larado (sp?) models.

In addition, we bought a bunch of them as construction vehicles to supervise
an off road project - not a lot of mud - just a lot of rough terrain. Every
one of them had things falling apart - i.e. hand brake lever came
disconnected from linkage; hand brake lever button fell out so hand brake
would not engage; 4wd engagement lever came disconnected from linkage
(several times) so could not put in 4wd; power windows quick working;
speedometer quit working; radio quit working; drivers seat quit sliding in
its track so could not adjust; paint flaked off of metal and door trim; door
trim (protective strip to avoid door dings) started falling off; etc; etc;
etc.

Now, in retrospect, perhaps I used the incorrect terminology - perhaps I
should have said "hardware" fell apart - not mechanical failure. None of
the company Jeeps broke down in terms of engine (although some of them had a
hell of a wrist pin knock in them for a new engine); transmission; U-joints;
etc. And as I said earlier, they are great for off road - none of them got
stuck. However when you pay that much for a vehicle I expect all parts of
it to hold together better than they did.

Now to the second part. I did not set the judging criteria, Jerry did. He
asked if a Ford was a 4 what would a Jeep be. We have switched across the
board with Ford pickups now for construction vehicles - F-150's; F-250's,
F-350's both 2wd and 4wd. NONE of them have broken mechanically OR HAD
HARDWARE FALLING APART!!! So, by the scale that Jerry set, I still have to
give the Jeeps a big bad negative number. If they would only make the
various hardware pieces as good as the suspension and powertrain, they would
have a great vehicle.

Now I realize, I am still ****ing off some Jeep lovers for which I
apologize. However, Jerry asked for an opinion, which I offered. I would
like to think that anyone can offer an opinion based on his personal
experience in this group without being labeled TROLL or **** on. If others
have had great experiences, then let them speak up and share their
experiences. I can only offer my experience which unfortunately was not
satisfactory.

I would love to hear other peoples opinions and experiences - without the
TROLL comments and other ****ty commentary. Lets give Jerry as much
legitimate information as we can and let him make a decision.

Don

"Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:63Wvb.5588$Bk1.1054@fed1read05...
> Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.
>
> --
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> To email, remove 'me' from my email address
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
>
> "Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:w1Wvb.993$ZE1.110@fed1read04...
> > If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20.
Maybe
> > the CJ a -10.
> >
> > Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there -
> most
> > Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
> > exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall
apart.
> >
> > Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> > > discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> > > is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> > > that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
> > >
> > > Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> > > vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> > > safety features?
> > >
> > >
> > > Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> > > commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> > > climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> > > reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> > > would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> > > start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> > > has this problem )
> > >
> > >
> > > I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> > > suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> > > reliability?
> > >
> > > Thank you all for your help,
> > >
> > > Paul Thomas
> >
> >
>
>

Don wrote:

> Sorry if I ****ed anyone off folks - no trolling intended.
>
> Paul asked for opinions and I offered mine. Everyone I know that has had a
> odern Jeep wishes he hadn't. Now to qualify that - I have not heard many
> bad things about the CJ/Wrangler - these were all the Cherokee/Grand
> Cherokee/Larado (sp?) models.
>
> In addition, we bought a bunch of them as construction vehicles to supervise
> an off road project - not a lot of mud - just a lot of rough terrain.

For a real project like this I would have gone with a used military vehicle.
That Unimog isn't going to break on you, I can guarantee it. Of course, finding
one is a bit tough.

www.real4x4.com Now that's a 4*4