injection timing issue?

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Right, I've made progress today and so far so good. On removing the timing cover, setting TDC and then locking the flywheel I found that the cam was out by one tooth of the belt (retarded, not advanced) and the injection pump locking pin was no where near right. God knows how it had got into such a mess. I removed the belt, aligned the timing pips for the cam and locked the pump into place. I then slackened the pump pulley bolts and installed and tensioned the belt. Double checking that the pump locking pin would slide in and out easily, I tightened the three lock bolts and turned the crank twice. The cam shaft was still aligned correctly, the pump locking pin slid in and out easily and the crank shaft could be locked with the flywheel locking pin. Everything was timed up. So I started the engine and was met with clouds of White smoke which turned white / blue under hard acceleration :(. On close inspection of the pump locking pin, it is ever so slightly bent at the tip (looks like someone has been a little aggressive with it in the past), so I rotated the pin in such a direction that it timed the pump a hairs width in advanced rather than a hairs width retarded. On starting the engine, there was still some White smoke but not as much and the engine would rev fantastically producing a puff of black smoke on hard revs (perfectly normal). I have left it at that. The engine pulls well through all gears, the turbo spools perfectly (and much faster than previously) and the engine is noticeably quieter (less diesel knock / rattle). I then left the engine for five minutes and fired it up again to find that the White smoke had cleared and the usual slug of black smoke was present on startup. The lumpy / hunting idle also seems to have disappeared (or so it seems at the moment).

I am still however, a little concerned. Would the minute fuel advanced adjustment (literally 1 mm to 1.5 mm rotation) have made all the difference between a very smokey, lumpy startup and idle and a nice, smokeless, smooth idle?

I have not yet adjusted the valve clearances, so this is something that I will sort out either tomorrow or after Christmas. I am also going to monitor the smoke and lumpiness issue tomorrow morning, as it is only ever apparent on 'cold' starts of the engine. This has got me thinking that there could be a problem with the cold start advanced solenoid on the injection pump? Would there be a way of checking this if the situation does not improve?

Thanks,
-Pos
 
pos said:
Right, I've made progress today and so far so good. On removing the timing cover, setting TDC and then locking the flywheel I found that the cam was out by one tooth of the belt (retarded, not advanced) and the injection pump locking pin was no where near right. God knows how it had got into such a mess. I removed the belt, aligned the timing pips for the cam and locked the pump into place. I then slackened the pump pulley bolts and installed and tensioned the belt. Double checking that the pump locking pin would slide in and out easily, I tightened the three lock bolts and turned the crank twice. The cam shaft was still aligned correctly, the pump locking pin slid in and out easily and the crank shaft could be locked with the flywheel locking pin. Everything was timed up. So I started the engine and was met with clouds of White smoke which turned white / blue under hard acceleration :(. On close inspection of the pump locking pin, it is ever so slightly bent at the tip (looks like someone has been a little aggressive with it in the past), so I rotated the pin in such a direction that it timed the pump a hairs width in advanced rather than a hairs width retarded. On starting the engine, there was still some White smoke but not as much and the engine would rev fantastically producing a puff of black smoke on hard revs (perfectly normal). I have left it at that. The engine pulls well through all gears, the turbo spools perfectly (and much faster than previously) and the engine is noticeably quieter (less diesel knock / rattle). I then left the engine for five minutes and fired it up again to find that the White smoke had cleared and the usual slug of black smoke was present on startup. The lumpy / hunting idle also seems to have disappeared (or so it seems at the moment).

I am still however, a little concerned. Would the minute fuel advanced adjustment (literally 1 mm to 1.5 mm rotation) have made all the difference between a very smokey, lumpy startup and idle and a nice, smokeless, smooth idle?

I have not yet adjusted the valve clearances, so this is something that I will sort out either tomorrow or after Christmas. I am also going to monitor the smoke and lumpiness issue tomorrow morning, as it is only ever apparent on 'cold' starts of the engine. This has got me thinking that there could be a problem with the cold start advanced solenoid on the injection pump? Would there be a way of checking this if the situation does not improve?

Thanks,
-Pos
Click to expand...

This is called a RESULT! Wow .... ! Well Done!

You asked ..."Would the minute fuel advanced adjustment (literally 1 mm to 1.5 mm rotation) have made all the difference between a very smokey, lumpy startup and idle and a nice, smokeless, smooth idle?"

Yes it could. Timing the pump is pretty critical, and every degree of turn on the PUMP (or its pulley) is TWICE that on the crankshaft.

Run the engine for a while and I think the smokieness will tend to clear up, BUT ... expect it to be a bitty smoky on start-up and to puff black when you deck the GO pedal. More or less all 200-300 tdi Discos do that.

The cold start device in the pump is quite crude, simply altering the timing of injection and flinging in HEAPS of fuel while the engine is turning at starter-motor speed, about 100 rpm more or less. This device unlatches as soon as the engine fires up enough to reach a few hundred rpm, and by tickover speed should be OFF, but the engine (and exhaust system) will be filled with half-burned fuel that takes a few moments to clear.

Really good glow plugs will help a lot. If even ONE glow plug is duff, that cylinder may be very slow to light up, but of course its injector will be flinging in fuel anyway, which will be vaporised into white smelly smoke and sent down the exhaust pipe. After a bit that cylinder will fire up and run clean once the excess fuel has burned-off. Once the engine is up and running, the glow plugs are OFF, so you wouldn't notice if there were one or two duffers.

Sounds to me that you have solved the problem.

A slight fine tuning of the injection timing would do no harm, and I think you would be very happy with that when you get it right. I think you may be able to advance the timing a little.

Do the valve clearances, and think about Glow plugs.

I bet you are a happier bunny today than this time yesterday!

CharlesY
 
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CharlesY said:
This is called a RESULT! Wow .... ! Well Done!

You asked ..."Would the minute fuel advanced adjustment (literally 1 mm to 1.5 mm rotation) have made all the difference between a very smokey, lumpy startup and idle and a nice, smokeless, smooth idle?"

Yes it could. Timing the pump is pretty critical, and every degree of turn on the PUMP (or its pulley) is TWICE that on the crankshaft.

Run the engine for a while and I think the smokieness will tend to clear up, BUT ... expect it to be a bitty smoky on start-up and to puff black when you deck the GO pedal. More or less all 200-300 tdi Discos do that.

The cold start device in the pump is quite crude, simply altering the timing of injection and flinging in HEAPS of fuel while the engine is turning at starter-motor speed, about 100 rpm more or less. This device unlatches as soon as the engine fires up enough to reach a few hundred rpm, and by tickover speed should be OFF, but the engine (and exhaust system) will be filled with half-burned fuel that takes a few moments to clear.

Really good glow plugs will help a lot. If even ONE glow plug is duff, that cylinder may be very slow to light up, but of course its injector will be flinging in fuel anyway, which will be vaporised into white smelly smoke and sent down the exhaust pipe. After a bit that cylinder will fire up and run clean once the excess fuel has burned-off. Once the engine is up and running, the glow plugs are OFF, so you wouldn't notice in there were one or two duffers.

Sounds to me that you have solved the problem.

A slight fine tuning of the injection timing would do no harm, and I think you would be very happy with that when you get it right. I think you may be able to advance the timing a little.

Do the valve clearances, and think about Glow plugs.

I bet you are a happier bunny today than this time yesterday!

CharlesY
Click to expand...

I certainly am 110% happier with my engine than I was at this time yesterday :D. I will have to adjust the valve clearances after Christmas now as I don't have a .20mm feeler, only a .18 and .25 on either side! As for the glow plugs, all four were tested and three replaced with allmakes units about five months ago, but I will take them out and test them all tomorrow. At least one of them is definitely working because the dashboard lights dim when I hold the key in the glow position (I do not have them fitted on a timer). I have always rather ignored the importance of the glow plugs, considering how well the 200tdi starts without them, however, in this much colder weather and with a nice new injection pump (and re-conditioned injectors) there will no doubt be a little more diesel being thrown into the cylinders on startup, and like you say, if it isn't burned immediately, it will only linger. I can just remember now how much smoke was created if I didn't hold the glow plugs on for at least 30 seconds with my old N/A engine :). I also forget to mention that when I stripped down my injectors, I installed four pattern "Firad" nozzles, designed and manufactured in Italy. They were cheaper than the Indian made Bosch counter-parts and they were praised over the Bosch units by the diesel engineer who ultimately set the pop pressures and tested the injectors for me after I had put them back together. Following a bit of research, it looks like these nozzles do have a slightly higher output than the Bosch nozzles (even though they should be the same - same part numbers etc) and they are particularly popular with the VW TDi tuning crowd. D you think that this might have anything to do with it? Oh, and as for being able to advanced my timing further, it just so happens that when I installed the belt, the pump pulley moved in favour of the 'retard' adjustment, so I am just about as advanced as the adjuster plate will permit given theposition of the bolts in the slots.

Generally speaking though, I feel exceptionally happy and my 90 is pulling like a train again! Fifth gear up hill and throwing me back into my seat as I hit the throttle :D

Cheers
-Pos
 
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pos said:
I certainly am 110% happier with my engine than I was at this time yesterday :D.


Generally speaking though, I feel exceptionally happy and my 90 is pulling like a train again! Fifth gear up hill and throwing me back into my seat as I hit the throttle :D

Cheers
-Pos
Click to expand...

I reckon drive it for a while, and see what if anything more needs to be done.

Meantime adjust the valve clearances, best done WITHOUT using feeler blades!

Get the other valve of that cylinder fully down.
Undo the locknut, and GENTLY turn the rocker screw down till there is NO clearance, that is, until the rocker JUST TOUCHES the valve-stem (cap).
Now UNDO the rocker screw by a bit less than a quarter turn, and tighten the locknut.
This will give the right clearance AND take into account rocker tip wear.

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
I reckon drive it for a while, and see what if anything more needs to be done.

Meantime adjust the valve clearances, best done WITHOUT using feeler blades!

Get the other valve of that cylinder fully down.
Undo the locknut, and GENTLY turn the rocker screw down till there is NO clearance, that is, until the rocker JUST TOUCHES the valve-stem (cap).
Now UNDO the rocker screw by a bit less than a quarter turn, and tighten the locknut.
This will give the right clearance AND take into account rocker tip wear.

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Bloody hell you know your stuff! :D I will try that tomorrow then. I am also going to whip the glow plugs out and give them a test, if I find a dud one, I'll swap a new one in :)

Thanks very much CharlesY you diesel engineering legend
:lvi-love-u-193:

-Pos
 
pos said:
Bloody hell you know your stuff! :D

That comes with being old, and brought up on engines with NO electric bits! I still have several, 2 dumpers, my 1949 concrete mixer, a 1939 Lister CS, and a mega-dangerous twin-cylinder 18hp diesel table saw.

I will try that tomorrow then.

Yep ... good plan. You can use the "Rule of Nine" on these engines. Just take care to set the screw down JUST to touch the valve. Slip a sheet of paper in, and you will feel it getting nipped.
That's about 0.002", and you'll soon get the idea of JUST touching, and back up a bit less than a quarter turn. It is NOT critical, as long as there is ALWAYS some clearance when the valve is off the cam. Too little clearance risks a valve not closing well, and too much makes a lot of tappy noises and knocks seven bells out of the rocker tip and valve cap. 8 to 10 thousandths of an inch is good.


I am also going to whip the glow plugs out and give them a test, if I find a dud one, I'll swap a new one in :)

Yes, again that's a good plan. Use copper grease when you re-fit them.

Thanks very much CharlesY you diesel engineering legend
:lvi-love-u-193:

Cripes .... Steady now that's going a bit too far - unless you are a girl looking for a pensioner!

-Pos
Click to expand...

CharlesY
 
That comes with being old, and brought up on engines with NO electric bits! I still have several, 2 dumpers, my 1949 concrete mixer, a 1939 Lister CS, and a mega-dangerous twin-cylinder 18hp diesel table saw.
Click to expand...

Sounds great! I have yet to finish uni, get a job, get married, work hard for tens of years, buy a house with some land and build a shed to start a collection of various bits and bobs. The only thing I've got that I can tinker with really is the Land Rover (and countless other land rovers down at my local specialists). I wouldn't mind an old stationary engine which I'm sure I could put to good use somewhere, maybe generating electricity for the house or as a central heating system for the shed.

Yep ... good plan. You can use the "Rule of Nine" on these engines. Just take care to set the screw down JUST to touch the valve. Slip a sheet of paper in, and you will feel it getting nipped.
That's about 0.002", and you'll soon get the idea of JUST touching, and back up a bit less than a quarter turn. It is NOT critical, as long as there is ALWAYS some clearance when the valve is off the cam. Too little clearance risks a valve not closing well, and too much makes a lot of tappy noises and knocks seven bells out of the rocker tip and valve cap. 8 to 10 thousandths of an inch is good.
Click to expand...

I will give that a go, it's sound advice and I like the idea of slightly lower tolerances and less clatter. When I first installed the engine, I had to do the head gasket and when I took the rocker cover off, it looked like the previous owner had used a pound coin to set the clearances.

Cripes .... Steady now that's going a bit too far - unless you are a girl looking for a pensioner!
Click to expand...

'fraid not! I'm a guy and I've fallen in love with a Suffolk girl who I am slowly conditioning to speak with a Yorkshire accent ;)

-Pos
 
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pos said:
'fraid not! I'm a guy and I've fallen in love with a Suffolk girl who I am slowly conditioning to speak with a Yorkshire accent ;)

-Pos
Click to expand...
Wait a minute ... let's get this clear. Disregarding which language or dialect might be involved, are you telling LandyZoners that you are "conditioning" a girl (as in a WOMAN) to speak?

Do you think that's wise? If ever she starts, she might never stop! Quite a few of the gents on this forum have experience of women getting to speak, and usually it isn't good. It often ends up in bruises or costing money.

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
Wait a minute ... let's get this clear. Disregarding which language or dialect might be involved, are you telling LandyZoners that you are "conditioning" a girl (as in a WOMAN) to speak?

Do you think that's wise? If ever she starts, she might never stop! Quite a few of the gents on this forum have experience of women getting to speak, and usually it isn't good. It often ends up in bruises or costing money.

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Haha, well the only time that she does speak to me is when I'm in trouble, or if she wants my opinion on something, which she will immediately ignore anyway :confused: Everything already costs me money and I am covered in bruises :D

As for the injection timing, well it's spot on now. I'm still not happy though. My alternator seems to be affecting my engine idle speed (as I found out when the bracket snapped in half earlier on today and the engine ran smooth as ever!). Could a faulty alternator really put that much load on the engine? We're talking simply putting main beam on really lowering the engine idle rpm here!

-Pos
 
Great thread this, been following your posts as you get your 200Tdi upto scratch Pos and CharlesY's advice is just pure gold :D

Cheers
 
PaulWilde said:
Great thread this, been following your posts as you get your 200Tdi upto scratch Pos and CharlesY's advice is just pure gold :D

Cheers
Click to expand...

:) CharlesY's advice is bang on the money every time. I am making both progress and taking steps backward at the same time. Generally speaking the problem that I have now is a rough / lumpy idle. Sometimes it is perfect, other times it will drop considerably and the whole truck will shake as the engine struggles to maintain a steady rpm. I know that there is air finding it's way into the system, because, with the engine running, if I slacken the bleed bolt on top of my fuel filter housing, there is always a considerable amount of air expelled. I have also found that my alternator significantly drains power from the engine when I put a little load on the electrical system. Turning just my head lights on will lower the engine idle speed. Today, my alternator bracket sheared off completely and without any belt drive to the alternator, my engine idle has been perfectly fine so I am trying to weigh up whether or not it is related to the air in the system or a faulty alternator and I don't seem to be getting anywhere. also finding where the air is getting into the system is a complete pain in the arse. I've installed new fuel line from the new pickup pipe to the new lift pump with new olives and I've also had a look at the return line pipe work, to no effect. I'm just completely out of ideas.
 
Try the lift pump ...

It may have a slack union on the INLET side, or a air leak INWARDS somewhere in the line on that side, which is the SUCTION side of the lift pump.

It is not unknown for the lift pump diaphragm to perforate and let a LOT of air in.

What sort of FUEL FILTER is fitted?
Does it have a Banjo bolt and union right in the very top?
Send a pic if you can. If there's a banjo and a return pipe right on the top of the filter head, chances are it has a self-bleeding arrangement, THAT IS BLOCKED. Easy to fix, and is like a miracle cure.

CharlesY
 
CharlesY said:
Try the lift pump ...

It may have a slack union on the INLET side, or a air leak INWARDS somewhere in the line on that side, which is the SUCTION side of the lift pump.

It is not unknown for the lift pump diaphragm to perforate and let a LOT of air in.

What sort of FUEL FILTER is fitted?
Does it have a Banjo bolt and union right in the very top?
Send a pic if you can. If there's a banjo and a return pipe right on the top of the filter head, chances are it has a self-bleeding arrangement, THAT IS BLOCKED. Easy to fix, and is like a miracle cure.

CharlesY
Click to expand...

Morning ;)

It's got the proper 200tdi fuel filter housing installed in the fuel line (see picture below), which does not have any return plumbing (as far as I am aware). I am on my fourth lift pump this year after having fitted three faulty Delphi pumps, all of which have failed to lift fuel up from the tank after a few weeks worth of driving. I will be checking that my new, two month old lift pump is still working correctly tomorrow morning whilst I try and re-mount my alternator.

Engine_Bay.jpg


You can also just about make out my fuel plumbing into the lift pump, and back to the tank from the injection pump in this photo. This was taken a few months back with my old pump in place (with botched oil pressure switch and fuel stop solenoid wiring). It is still plumbed in in the same way today, albeit I now have a hose clip on the supply pipe as opposed to a jubilee clip which warped into a nice oval shape. I do however, still have two jubilee clips on the return pipe joins. I also have four new injector pipes fitted, not the weeping ones that you can just about make out in this photo.

Oil_Cooler.jpg


-Pos
 
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clear fuel pipe as temp solution until you find source of air
 
I'd be tempted to rob some fittings off an old scrapper and make a pipe between filter and pump-that would show if air was going into pump and you could watch as cranked over-something like an old peugeot 1.9d or renault 1.9d diesel should have bits you want to make up a pipe.
 
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