Freelander 1 Freelander EV

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Nodge68 said:
It's unfortunate you're day didn't go to plan Ali, but with the fish out the way, you'll have a nice flat area to fit the battery box.
Can I ask, what depth are you allowing for the battery box?

As the back box hangs below the fish tank, this gives a good 12" or more height available for a box.
I don't know what dimension the modules are, but can they be put on their sides, or maybe double stacked within the box confines, simply to maximise the module density within the available?
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I don't mind too much that ver1.0 didn't quite fit as it's only cardboard and a couple of hours work. Much better to find out now than after welding up a metal box. :eek:

You're right about the amount of space at the rear however I won't be getting silly with it. I don't want the battery box visible from behind as it's one thing I really dislike, never mind the safety concerns of a heavy battery box hanging down below the rear bumper.
The weight is still on my mind too but having said all that I'm hoping to get another 6 or maybe even 8 large modules in there. I haven't really looked at it yet as I spent so long on the fuel tank box but it should be really useful space.
 
Anything in front of the rear axle will have a proportion of the weight shared by the front axle. Ok with the weight only just in front of the rear axle, a majority will be taken by the rear axle, but not 100%.
Rear axle loading needs to be kept inside LRs specification, for the vehicle to remain safe and compliant.
Obviously you've removed some weight from the back.
The fuel tank and associated stuff is probably about 10kg, plus the fuel, and the exhaust, and the tow bar, so I reckon you've pulled off a potential 100kg from the rear, all of which is going to help offset the additional weight of the battery packs.
 
andyfreelandy said:
Diesel is not far off 1Kg per litre so there's 60Kg!!!
I guess batteries stay the same weight whether charged or not!!! Another reason that a diesel is more eco friendly!! :eek:
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And diesels power doesn't greatly diminish in cold weather conditions :p

Theoretically, if Ali can run this off of renewably sourced electrcity, then it is a green vehicle, but if his local charging points are getting their electricity from gas or coal power, then it's missing the entire point. Up where I live we've got this ruddy great big cloud factory (gas powered power station) that chucks out about two gigawatt, so when I see a tesla around here I'm wondering just how green they are.

That being said, IIRC Ali also "plays" with solar panels like Nodge does, so there is every chance that his frEElander will be running on solar sourced electricity, and given it's recycled base vehicle and recycled powertrain (from scrapped e-v's), it's going to have some pretty verdant credentials, arguably greener than an off the shelf EV which its manufacturing and logistics carbon footprint.
 
Even if my electricity came from coal it would still be a factor of times greener than diesel. Economy of scale plays a major part and don't forget the energy used to extract oil, transport it, refine it and transport it again.
I've spent a bit more time today looking at the options and it looks like 4 large and 2 small is the best I can do in the fuel tank space. Its shallow and has a diff and prop shaft in the way.
At the back I can fit at least 6 and maybe 8 large modules. That leaves 5 large and 8 small modules to find space for under the bonnet.
 
Nodge68 said:
Close to it, yes. It's 830 grams per litre iirc, so a good 50 plus kg for a full tank. ;)
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And then there is the fuel pump, filter, pipework, filler neck.... So plenty of mass allowance in lieu of the fuel subsystem. Furthermore, what's the permitted nose weighting for a freelander towbar? Or the payload for the vehicle? Both of them represent areas where weight allowances can be "borrowed" from. If he's doing away with the towbar, there is also the weight of that to use as a battery pack or two.

With the way the freelander door sills come down from the floor pan, rather than curl up like a hatchback's sills...
upload_2021-5-9_15-53-14.png

Excuse the imperfections in the hastily put together cad diagram above, but it's showing what I'm calling "hatchback style" on the left and something approximating "hippo style" on the right

...there is a lot of of room under the floor that is within the boundary of the sills, I'm sure he could lob some batteries in there to keep the weight distribution about right. And without meaning to be disrespectful, Ali is (doing a grand job of) electrifying an old landrover, he's not, as far as I can tell, Peter Bonnington, setting up Lewis Hamiltons car to perfection to shave a few hundredths of a second off a lap time, so anything that is in the ballpark is going to be grand.
 
Alibro said:
Even if my electricity came from coal it would still be a factor of times greener than diesel. Economy of scale plays a major part and don't forget the energy used to extract oil, transport it, refine it and transport it again.
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Coal isn't used in the UK to generate electricity (we're almost 50% renewables now), unlike Germany, where they're closing nuclear power stations, and reinstating coal fired power stations. :eek::eek:
However even if coal is used to charge an EV, then it's sill greener than burning the diesel in an ICE, simply because a coal burning power station is something approaching 90% energy efficient, but a diesel is under 40% efficient, for the same energy output. ;)
Alibro said:
I've spent a bit more time today looking at the options and it looks like 4 large and 2 small is the best I can do in the fuel tank space. Its shallow and has a diff and prop shaft in the way.
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That's not to be disappointed at Ali, as that's less space you need to find elsewhere.;)

Alibro said:
At the back I can fit at least 6 and maybe 8 large modules. That leaves 5 large and 8 small modules to find space for under the bonnet.
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That looks like a good plan. ;)
 
Jayridium said:
And then there is the fuel pump, filter, pipework, filler neck.... So plenty of mass allowance in lieu of the fuel subsystem.
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Off the top of my head, I reckon on 100kgs for the fuel and exhaust system.
Jayridium said:
Furthermore, what's the permitted nose weighting for a freelander towbar?
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Towbar nose weight is up to 150kgs on the Freelander.
Jayridium said:
there is a lot of of room under the floor that is within the boundary of the sills, I'm sure he could lob some batteries in there to keep the weight distribution about right.
Click to expand...
I thought about this previously, and yes there is a lot of area, but not a lot of height. If Tesla modules were being used, then a few would fit, as they're only 7.5cm thick. However the modules in Ali's pack are thicker than the Tesla modules, so unfortunately the space between the outer sill and chassis rails can't be used.
 
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Nodge68 said:
Off the top of my head, I reckon on 100kgs for the fuel and exhaust system.

Towbar nose weight is up to 150kgs on the Freelander.

I thought about this previously, and yes there is a lot of area, but not a lot of height. If Tesla modules were being used, then a few would fit, as there's 7.5cm thick. However the modules in Ali's pack are thicker than the Tesla modules, so unfortunately the space between the outer sill and chassis rails can't be used.
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Between the fuel and exhaust system and the mass of the towbar, he can justifiably fit quarter of a tonne of batteries under the boot floor and under the back seats, so he's off to a good start.

That's a pity, about the thickness of his modules, as that would have been a nice neat way to put the batteries right in the centre of the vehicle. Depending on the thickness of this modules, he could put steps on the vehicle to mask them and make some aluminium skid plates to protect them? If ground clearance is an issue, after certification, he could slap on the usual off road mods, bigger tyres and lift kit? With that much weight being slung so low, the lift kit wouldn't really upset the centre of gravity...
 
I'm not sure it would be as much as 100kg removed. The fuel tank is plastic and very light but still maybe 75 or 80kg if you count a full tank fuel pump etc.
I may be able to put more batteries in the fuel tank space if I squeezed them in but this is my first time so I'm being cautious. I'm leaving space for captive nuts on the bottom of the box (to bolt down the modules and cabling at the top so probably 30mm more than the modules which are 110mm sitting flat and 150mm on their sides. I'm also trying to stay clear of the prop shaft and diff by at least 30mm so that's why I can only fit in 4 big and 2 wee.
Jayridium said:
And then there is the fuel pump, filter, pipework, filler neck.... So plenty of mass allowance in lieu of the fuel subsystem. Furthermore, what's the permitted nose weighting for a freelander towbar? Or the payload for the vehicle? Both of them represent areas where weight allowances can be "borrowed" from. If he's doing away with the towbar, there is also the weight of that to use as a battery pack or two.

With the way the freelander door sills come down from the floor pan, rather than curl up like a hatchback's sills...
View attachment 237854
Excuse the imperfections in the hastily put together cad diagram above, but it's showing what I'm calling "hatchback style" on the left and something approximating "hippo style" on the right

...there is a lot of of room under the floor that is within the boundary of the sills, I'm sure he could lob some batteries in there to keep the weight distribution about right. And without meaning to be disrespectful, Ali is (doing a grand job of) electrifying an old landrover, he's not, as far as I can tell, Peter Bonnington, setting up Lewis Hamiltons car to perfection to shave a few hundredths of a second off a lap time, so anything that is in the ballpark is going to be grand.
Click to expand...

I had the same thought until I saw how big the modules are (110mm high) so when you add space for securing and cables unfortunately this is not possible. If I did away with the 4WD I would have more space where the VCU is but keeping it 4WD is important to me.
 
Jayridium said:
Between the fuel and exhaust system and the mass of the towbar, he can justifiably fit quarter of a tonne of batteries under the boot floor and under the back seats, so he's off to a good start.
Click to expand...

The large modules weigh 11.3kg and the smaller 6kg so if I have 12 large and 2 small at the rear I'm adding 147.6kg of module alone. I need to allow a few kg for bolts and cables and maybe 30kg (only guessing) for the two boxes so getting on for 180kg. If I remove 80kg then I'm only 100kg (a fat bloke) above standard.
 
Alibro said:
I'm not sure it would be as much as 100kg removed. The fuel tank is plastic and very light but still maybe 75 or 80kg if you count a full tank fuel pump etc.
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Don't forget the exhaust Ali, which is pretty heavy. ;)
Alibro said:
The large modules weigh 11.3kg and the smaller 6kg so if I have 12 large and 2 small at the rear I'm adding 147.6kg of module alone. I need to allow a few kg for bolts and cables and maybe 30kg (only guessing) for the two boxes so getting on for 180kg. If I remove 80kg then I'm only 100kg (a fat bloke) above standard.
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I reckon you will be well under the maximum permissible axle loading, which is pretty reasonable 1120kg on the rear.
 
Alibro said:
Unfortunately it was a bit too rough to be considered as the new home for my leccy conversion kit so the search continues.
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Very wise Ali. There's absolutely no point in getting a rough one as the permanent home for your EV components.
 
Nodge68 said:
Very wise Ali. There's absolutely no point in getting a rough one as the permanent home for your EV components.
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Funny thing is I had SWMBO with me and for the first time she didn't tell me I should keep the heap on the road for a year or two. She actually said I have been spending so much time and effort on it I should be getting the nicest car I can find. :eek:

I'm worried she's looking something. o_O
 
Alibro said:
Funny thing is I had SWMBO with me and for the first time she didn't tell me I should keep the heap on the road for a year or two. She actually said I have been spending so much time and effort on it I should be getting the nicest car I can find. :eek:

I'm worried she's looking something. o_O
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It's good that SWMBO is saying get a better one. It makes perfect sense to me. You just need to find an immaculate one with a busted engine. ;)
 
So after several goes at making the fuel tank box this seems to be the best option. It may not be perfect and maybe I could fit more in but I'm being cautious as this is my first attempt at this.

IMG_20210510_212612573 (1).jpg
IMG_20210510_212605974 (1).jpg


However until I figure out exactly how to bolt the modules together fit them in the box I can't be certain this will work.
So I've started making the brackets to hold the four large modules together.

IMG_20210517_194428980_HDR.jpg

IMG_20210517_194435162_HDR.jpg

IMG_20210517_175613442.jpg


The idea is to have the 4 large modules bolted together with threaded bar then bolted to the box. I plan to have studs on the floor of the box but as I haven't sorted that yet I haven't drilled the brackets.
To help with cooling I'm spacing the modules with 3mm washers and have made the middle part of the bracket from 3mm steel.
 
It's good to see you making steady progress Ali. I'm surprised the VW battery doesn't have thermal management, which seems a backwards step to me. I'm glad you're thinking about thermal management though, which seems a sensible option to me. Are you planning any kind of active cooling, maybe a temperature controlled fan for instance?
 
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