Brakes and bearings

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I put a new injector loom in this morning and it doesn't seem to have made a difference. Very occasionally it will start and run smoothly but 9 times out of 10 it's rough and clattery and dies. The Nanocom says 'peak charge short' on all cylinders. I've cleaned the multiplugs between the engine and everywhere else (there's a group of 3 on the bulkhead just behind the engine) checked the plugs into the ECU, investigated the possibility of an earth fault by clipping a jump lead between a bolt on the engine and the battery negative terminal, all of which make no difference. If it were simply fuel starvation you wouldn't get the 'peak charge short' errors. I might pop the pressure gauge on the fuel pipe later just to make sure, but I don't think it is that.
It's starting to make me think about the ECU itself. In my ownership there have been two major ECU failures, the last of which was 4 years ago so it is about due for another one. I might see if I can get my old one repaired, which I probably should do anyway so as to have a spare. Then I'll have something to swap in when this sort of thing happens. It'll be of diagnostic value at least.
 
Brown said:
I put a new injector loom in this morning and it doesn't seem to have made a difference. Very occasionally it will start and run smoothly but 9 times out of 10 it's rough and clattery and dies. The Nanocom says 'peak charge short' on all cylinders. I've cleaned the multiplugs between the engine and everywhere else (there's a group of 3 on the bulkhead just behind the engine) checked the plugs into the ECU, investigated the possibility of an earth fault by clipping a jump lead between a bolt on the engine and the battery negative terminal, all of which make no difference. If it were simply fuel starvation you wouldn't get the 'peak charge short' errors. I might pop the pressure gauge on the fuel pipe later just to make sure, but I don't think it is that.
It's starting to make me think about the ECU itself. In my ownership there have been two major ECU failures, the last of which was 4 years ago so it is about due for another one. I might see if I can get my old one repaired, which I probably should do anyway so as to have a spare. Then I'll have something to swap in when this sort of thing happens. It'll be of diagnostic value at least.
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Is the battery itself giving sufficient voltage?
 
Turboman said:
Is the battery itself giving sufficient voltage?
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Yes, 12.8 resting and 14.6 running (when it condescends to do so). Yes, there's a point with low batteries on the TD5 where it'll spin the starter but the engine won't 'catch' at all. But in my experience, that's more of an all or nothing issue.

Whilst changing the injector loom I cut my finger on the sheet metal baffle that's on the underside of the rocker cover and it won't stop
bleeding, so maybe that's enough car maintenance for today . . .
 
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I didn't see this until this evening, but I'm another that has had the cv joint foul the balls. I thought it was because I'm using an odd mix of parts, so bunged the cv joints in the lathe and took some off those instead.

nb. Seeing the seals in the stub axles has got me wondering - I think I put mine in t'other way round?
 
I often read about other peeps having the same "Brake line seized in the feckin nut I'm trying to take orf" problem as I usually have. It just got me wondering if a possible cure would be to get some copperslip around the back of the flare/nut joint, before assembling, or would that cause some problems I haven't thought of??
 
Brown said:
I came home last night to discover my flexible pipe had been delivered, so I was able to pop out while it was still light and make the terminations on the metal pipes so the braking system is now complete:
View attachment 218915

Now let's blow a bit of fluid through with the pressure bleeder and see if we can firm the pedal up a bit:
View attachment 218916 That was the easiest bleeding session I've ever had on the Land Rover. The bubbles came out in an orderly fashion straight away and the brakes work. At least they do trundling up and down the yard. It needs a road test and maybe another bleed when it has had a chance to settle.

I was going to take it out this morning but on attempting to start it was very rough and smoky. I did a fuel purge and it started and ran nicely. Good, problem solved. No, apparently not - I opened the gates and then started it again and it was rough and clattery and seemed to be running on one or two cylinders. The Nanocom tells me I have peak charge errors on all cylinders, which in the past has been a sign of the injector loom deteriorating. I'll try a new injector loom as it's only around £30 for a supposedly OEM one. There's no oil visible yet at the multiplugs, but it might have started deteriorating inside. I also took off and cleaned the crank position sensor, which had got a bit oily over the year or so since I last cleaned it and there was a flake of rust stuck to the sensor tip. Put it back in and the problem was still apparent, so I don't think that was the culprit.

No rest for the wicked.
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doesnt fuel purge give any clues
 
boguing said:
Sorry - I meant seal in the swivel ball, not stub axle. I'm fairly sure that's meant to be the other way around.
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I just keep putting mine in the direction they were when I first dismantled it in 2014. I assumed the cup faced towards the jucier side; towards the oil in the axle rather than the grease in the hub. Rather like the oil seals do on the gearbox and diff pinion shafts. Having said that, maybe it doesn't make that much difference - some people leave them out so the diff and swivels share the oil.
 
jamesmartin said:
doesnt fuel purge give any clues
Click to expand...

I've done a few purges but it doesn't show any consistent relationship. About two times out of ten it starts and runs normally whereas most of the time it sounds like it's only working on about two cylinders and is smoky, leaving me with peak charge short errors on all cylinders. Switching the ignition on with a pressure gauge attached shows the fuel rapidly reaches 60psi, so I'm tempted to think the fuel system is OK. The way it comes and goes makes me think of an intermittent electrical fault - sensors, wiring or ECU. Oh, and I've tried swapping the crank position sensor with my spare one and that doesn't make a difference either.
 
I had a similar thought process, espec since I've used molybdenum grease in the ball. Just decided that I'd do what I was told by the parts book... The whole car's a mash up of my thinking, so sometimes it's easier just to let someone else have thought of it.
 
Brown said:
I just keep putting mine in the direction they were when I first dismantled it in 2014. I assumed the cup faced towards the jucier side; towards the oil in the axle rather than the grease in the hub. Rather like the oil seals do on the gearbox and diff pinion shafts. Having said that, maybe it doesn't make that much difference - some people leave them out so the diff and swivels share the oil.
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seal should face the oil in the diff as you have put them
 
I had the peak charge errors some time ago, the fault was intermittent, tried changing the injector lead, and various other things, eventually I bought a second hand ECU and re programed it and it was OK.
The original one I set to ECU repair and they could not find any problem, but offered to fix it anyway, sorry if this doesn't help much and I can't even find the thread I made, I still have the first ECU, if you want to try it but it may just add more confusion

Found it. https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/crankshaft-sensor-spacer.308563/page-3
 
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raywin said:
I had the peak charge errors some time ago, the fault was intermittent, tried changing the injector lead, and various other things, eventually I bought a second hand ECU and re programed it and it was OK.
The original one I set to ECU repair and they could not find any problem, but offered to fix it anyway, sorry if this doesn't help much and I can't even find the thread I made, I still have the first ECU, if you want to try it but it may just add more confusion

Found it. https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/crankshaft-sensor-spacer.308563/page-3
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Yes I remember that one. I think you and I have both sent our ECUs to the same place judging by your account of the email correspondence.
'We have received your unit'
'Your unit is in the workshop for testing'
'Your unit has been assigned an engineer'
'Your engineer has just nipped out for a pee and a crafty smoke'
And so on.

Thanks for the offer of a spare ECU, but my old spare one should be back from the menders soon, so I'll try that first. Other possibilities include problems in the wiring loom itself, but mine was new in early 2015 so I hope its still OK. I also wondered about air starvation as a result of flaps peeling off the inside of the air hoses, but I'll have a look at that if I have to do any further dismantling. I've also got a little fretting on the cam lobes, but it's not too severe and has developed very slowly over about 135000 miles, and wouldn't be anywhere near severe enough to create that amount of misfire. Interestingly, nos. 1 and 5 are still shiny, as are the cams that work the valves. It's just the middle injector lobes that are affected.

We'll have to meet up sometime soon, once all this madness is over.

frog hopper said:
I often read about other peeps having the same "Brake line seized in the feckin nut I'm trying to take orf" problem as I usually have. It just got me wondering if a possible cure would be to get some copperslip around the back of the flare/nut joint, before assembling, or would that cause some problems I haven't thought of??
Click to expand...

Sorry, didn't mean to make it look like I'd forgotten you. I used to grease them but then I noticed that it wasn't making much difference, so these last few years I haven't bothered. I've got a cracking little tool now that puts the most factory-looking pips on the ends of the pipes, and a roll of tube isn't that expensive. So at least I know I have a fresh pipe and it is not corroded or chafing through against a sticky-out bit of chassis.
 
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Brown can I ask a Noddy question here:

When you did your bearings, did you go double nut and feel them in or use the TD5 stake nut system?

Reason being, I want to do mine, and if it were a tdi I'd have no issue with turning the job around in a morning. However, if td5 setup (despite the hub not being replaced), I'm concerned that I dial them in and need new spacers.

I'd obviously have to then wait for the correct spacers to arrive, leaving my daily stood!
 
resto_d1 said:
Brown can I ask a Noddy question here:

When you did your bearings, did you go double nut and feel them in or use the TD5 stake nut system?

Reason being, I want to do mine, and if it were a tdi I'd have no issue with turning the job around in a morning. However, if td5 setup (despite the hub not being replaced), I'm concerned that I dial them in and need new spacers.

I'd obviously have to then wait for the correct spacers to arrive, leaving my daily stood!
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm not ignoring you - just hadn't checked in on this thread for a few days as I haven't made any progress. Yes, I've got the TD5 set up with a single nut and a spacer. When I first got the Land Rover I was thinking of getting it a lock nut style kit because that was what I was more familiar with from the days when we had a Series 2 Forward Control. But in the event I've left it as single nut. I'm pretty sure that the spacers plays a largely cosmetic role and the inside of the bearings don't actually touch them.

The bearings I just took out have been in since December 2014 and must have done something in the region of 80,000 miles. I give the wheels a good shake once in a while to detect any slack and have occasionally tightened one of the nuts a few degrees just to take up a bit of wobble. So in practice the experience of living with this setup is very similar to the old lock nut version.
 
Brown said:
Sorry, I'm not ignoring you - just hadn't checked in on this thread for a few days as I haven't made any progress. Yes, I've got the TD5 set up with a single nut and a spacer. When I first got the Land Rover I was thinking of getting it a lock nut style kit because that was what I was more familiar with from the days when we had a Series 2 Forward Control. But in the event I've left it as single nut. I'm pretty sure that the spacers plays a largely cosmetic role and the inside of the bearings don't actually touch them.

The bearings I just took out have been in since December 2014 and must have done something in the region of 80,000 miles. I give the wheels a good shake once in a while to detect any slack and have occasionally tightened one of the nuts a few degrees just to take up a bit of wobble. So in practice the experience of living with this setup is very similar to the old lock nut version.
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spacer been the correct size is vital as it keeps the bearings at the correct distance , so theres no play or excessive preload on the bearings when the nut is tightened up,chances are if you use timken bearings and the same hubs spacers will be as near as makes no difference correct
 
jamesmartin said:
spacer been the correct size is vital as it keeps the bearings at the correct distance , so theres no play or excessive preload on the bearings when the nut is tightened up,chances are if you use timken bearings and the same hubs spacers will be as near as makes no difference correct
Click to expand...

I think mine have been NTN brand rather than Timken. But a decent famous name brand is probably well within factory tolerances. Of course you don't want to wind 'em up so they're too stiff, but even with the spacer system I've found a tiny bit of adjustment is still possible, certainly enough to accommodate the settling in and wear over a reasonable lifetime of the bearings.
 
Brown said:
I think mine have been NTN brand rather than Timken. But a decent famous name brand is probably well within factory tolerances. Of course you don't want to wind 'em up so they're too stiff, but even with the spacer system I've found a tiny bit of adjustment is still possible, certainly enough to accommodate the settling in and wear over a reasonable lifetime of the bearings.
Click to expand...
there should be no adjustment, the locknut should be done up bar tight against the spacer,the spacer is or should be the only adjustment, and is thick enough to ensure that
 
resto_d1 said:
Brown can I ask a Noddy question here:

When you did your bearings, did you go double nut and feel them in or use the TD5 stake nut system?

Reason being, I want to do mine, and if it were a tdi I'd have no issue with turning the job around in a morning. However, if td5 setup (despite the hub not being replaced), I'm concerned that I dial them in and need new spacers.

I'd obviously have to then wait for the correct spacers to arrive, leaving my daily stood!
Click to expand...
fit the 2 nuts and lock tab if you think you might need to order different sized spacers ,but try original first if hub has no play and turns freely that will be ok,hub will become stiffer if theres too much preload
 
Thanks both. Yes that was my understanding James - the spacer makes bearing setting idiot proof in that you torque up to it rather than anything being felt in. The spacer should lead to no endfloat.

I never got totally rid of the rumble between 40-50. Props are changed, but it really does sound 'bearingy' and I think its a good idea to do my bearings then do my swivels the following month say.

What I'll do, is buy a 2 nut a lock tab kit and a stakenut. I can then revert to 2 nut like you say if needed?

That would sort my problem - I'd have a plan B if the spacer was wrong. Really, if the hub itself isn't being changed, the spacer shouldn't need to but you never know do you!!!
 
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