audi and kaipola ski jump advertisiement - climbing an icy hill

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> - On what icy slope is a car can actually stand still on without
> sliding down? I thought that a relatively small slope (with no friction
> because of ice) that a car can stand up on icy slope more than say 15
> to 20 degrees ( 1V to 3H to 1V to 4H). .... or is the figure even
> lower, say 10 degrees ... or less?

To this point, if you note the small print in the ad, it states that a
safety line was used to PREVENT the car from sliding down.

 

223rem wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > of 80 degrees, even on a regular ground (not icy road). When I dig out
> > more information about the Audi advertisement, I read more detail
> > information on how the car actually climbed up the hill.
> > I would like to find out comments from the readers about driving up an
> > icy snow hill with very steep slopes. My immediate questions are:
> > - Could you actually climb up a ski jump by the power of your car, from
> > a stop, without slipping on an 80 degrees icy/snow slope?.
>
> Cant be 80 degrees. That's absurd.
>
> A quick Google found an interesting article:
> http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050308.004

Well Christ, it's a fraud!!

"The Audi A6 4.2 quattro with 6-speed tiptronic that drove up the ski
jump was otherwise a perfectly normal production version. Two minor
exceptions: the automatic transmission was kept in first gear - the
slight power loss that occurs when changing gear would have made it
impossible to climb such a steep gradient - and the tyres'
six-millimetre spikes. Tyres of this kind are also used in rallying."

"Minor Exceptions"?? 6mm spikes??? My Vette could make it up that
hill with freakin' spikes!

 


Alan Baker wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Alan Baker wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 223rem wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > > > > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > > > > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > > > > >>of 80 degrees,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 37.5 degrees actually.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> > > > > should have been enough.
> > > >
> > > > At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
> > > > Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.
> > > > Kind regards,
> > > > Erik-Jan.
> > >
> > > You really should study physics a little...
> >
> > Why? We are talking about an angle of 37.5 degrees here which can be
> > done with most 4x4's with low range T-case. On tarmac you will even
> > succeed without spinning wheels.
>
> Your missing the point. At 37.5 degrees, almost the entire weight of the
> vehicle will be on the rear wheels. Take a wheelbase of 8' for example
> and assume a 50-50 weight distribution. If the centre of mass is located
> at 8/2 * 80% = 3.2 feet, then the entire weight of the vehicle would be
> on the rear wheels on a 80% or 37.5 degree slope.

My experience with a hill nearby, (about 25 to 30 degrees) grassland.
Easy to climb with 4wd engaged, no spinning wheels. In 2wd mode the car
won't move an inch, the rear wheels were spinning though (LSD).
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.



> Hence the OP was suggesting that only RWD would be necessary.
>
> --
> Alan Baker
> Vancouver, British Columbia
> "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
> to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
> if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

--
http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper/
 


Larry Bud wrote:
>
> 223rem wrote:
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > > I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
> > > up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
> > > and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
> > > of 80 degrees, even on a regular ground (not icy road). When I dig out
> > > more information about the Audi advertisement, I read more detail
> > > information on how the car actually climbed up the hill.
> > > I would like to find out comments from the readers about driving up an
> > > icy snow hill with very steep slopes. My immediate questions are:
> > > - Could you actually climb up a ski jump by the power of your car, from
> > > a stop, without slipping on an 80 degrees icy/snow slope?.
> >
> > Cant be 80 degrees. That's absurd.
> >
> > A quick Google found an interesting article:
> > http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050308.004
>
> Well Christ, it's a fraud!!
>
> "The Audi A6 4.2 quattro with 6-speed tiptronic that drove up the ski
> jump was otherwise a perfectly normal production version. Two minor
> exceptions: the automatic transmission was kept in first gear - the
> slight power loss that occurs when changing gear would have made it
> impossible to climb such a steep gradient - and the tyres'
> six-millimetre spikes. Tyres of this kind are also used in rallying."
>
> "Minor Exceptions"?? 6mm spikes??? My Vette could make it up that
> hill with freakin' spikes!

You forgot it was whinched up.......so yes it is a fraud... as most
commercials are.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.


--
The Meeting Place for Photography http://www.fotograaf.com
Fotofestival Naarden Festival-OFF http://www.festival-off.nl
Rondvaart in Naarden-Vesting http://www.vestingvaart.nl
Historische Haven Naarden http://www.havennaarden.nl
Erik-Jan Geniets. Phone: +31-(0)6.55.78.60.31
 


Larry Bud wrote:
>
> > - On what icy slope is a car can actually stand still on without
> > sliding down? I thought that a relatively small slope (with no friction
> > because of ice) that a car can stand up on icy slope more than say 15
> > to 20 degrees ( 1V to 3H to 1V to 4H). .... or is the figure even
> > lower, say 10 degrees ... or less?
>
> To this point, if you note the small print in the ad, it states that a
> safety line was used to PREVENT the car from sliding down.

According to the "making of" pictures in another post it is the whinch
cable that pulled the car up.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 
Alan Baker <[email protected]> writes in article <[email protected]> dated Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:58:44 GMT:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> 223rem wrote:
>> >
>> > Pooh Bear wrote:
>> > >
>> > > [email protected] wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on driving
>> > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive achievement
>> > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with slope
>> > >>of 80 degrees,
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 37.5 degrees actually.

I get arctan(.8)=38.66

>> > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
>> > should have been enough.
>>
>> At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
>> Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.

Even 4WD with open diffs might do that.

Suppose the wheelbase is 12' and the center of gravity is 2' from the road
surface and in the center of the wheelbase.

The 80% grade brings the rear wheels closer to the c.g. -- a ratio of
(6-2*.8)/(6+2*.8), which still leaves 37% of the weight on the front wheels
and therefore 37% of the potential traction.

The answer is YES, AWD is still important at that angle, if my guesses about
the relative location of the center of gravity are right.

-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
 
Erik-Jan,
Actually, it had a safety line attached in case it did slip and fall off the
ramp. Similar to that used by mountain climbers - it's slack, but there as
a precaution. If it's the same as the commercial for the 1987-vintage Audi
100/5000 quattro, then you'll see the tether in the film below the
centreline of the car. It was not winched up, though, it drove up:
http://www.nordicaudi.com/media/filmer/filmer/reklam/040208/quattro1.mpg
Now the spiked tires.....that's grip, baby! Too bad spikes are illegal here
in Canada.
BTW, the ad with the Audi climbing the Andes in Chile with no rubber on the
rims:
http://www.nordicaudi.com/media/filmer/filmer/reklam/000726/ascent.avi
- no spikes there!
There are many other films on the Nordic Audi web site (under "Filmer") -
there's probably the test that the German TV show did on the different SUV's
climbing the ski slope. Of course, they're essentially commercials,
caricaturing the selling points of the vehicle (hence, the use of spiked
tires). In my work I've driven my quattro-equipped sedan off-road (in
fields and various construction sites), but I'd never drive off-road like
the guy in our office that owns a Jeep. Of course, some say the difference
between 2 wheel drive and 4 wheel drive is the distance you drive in before
you're stuck.....and it holds true for our Jeep guy, who needed an excavator
to drag him out this past summer. ;-)
Cheers!
Steve Sears
1987 Audi 5kTQ - never tried to climb a ski jump, no spiked tires, though
1980 Audi 5k - could negotiate the parking lot of the ski resort.
1962 and '64 Auto Union DKW Junior deLuxes - 36 Hp - gets stuck
contemplating climbing hills
(SPAM Blocker NOTE: Remove SHOES to reply)


"Erik-Jan Geniets" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Larry Bud wrote:
>>
>> > - On what icy slope is a car can actually stand still on without
>> > sliding down? I thought that a relatively small slope (with no friction
>> > because of ice) that a car can stand up on icy slope more than say 15
>> > to 20 degrees ( 1V to 3H to 1V to 4H). .... or is the figure even
>> > lower, say 10 degrees ... or less?
>>
>> To this point, if you note the small print in the ad, it states that a
>> safety line was used to PREVENT the car from sliding down.
>
> According to the "making of" pictures in another post it is the whinch
> cable that pulled the car up.
> Kind regards,
> Erik-Jan.


 
Steve,
Nice ad, but that's just it, advertising... How many people need/have
to do that in a car? My old landie could probably do it too (slower
tho') No tires? I reckon the rim sides with the asphalt/macadam? after
having worn down in the first few metres, would be probably be more
effective than spikes. I wouldn't advocate doing this yourself, unless
you were desperate to get to the top, or if you had a spare set of
rims...

PS I live in Switzerland, 4x4 is useful!... but, braking is like any
other car... Spikes are allowed here, but you are limited to 80kmh. My
best car ever on the snow was my '69 Beetle equiped with snow tyres.

--
....tone
LR90 "Emma"
SRX6 - hibernating

 
Apologies for having crossposted...

--
....tone
LR90 "Emma"
SRX6 - hibernating

 
Erik-Jan Geniets wrote:
>> "Minor Exceptions"?? 6mm spikes??? My Vette could make it up that
>> hill with freakin' spikes!
>
> You forgot it was whinched up.......so yes it is a fraud... as most
> commercials are.

The article claims "back then and this time, both Audi models drove up
the ski jump under their own power; they were not pulled." I believe it;
I just don't see any use for being able to climb ski jumps in first gear
with special tires.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.
 


clifto wrote:
>
> Erik-Jan Geniets wrote:
> >> "Minor Exceptions"?? 6mm spikes??? My Vette could make it up that
> >> hill with freakin' spikes!
> >
> > You forgot it was whinched up.......so yes it is a fraud... as most
> > commercials are.
>
> The article claims "back then and this time, both Audi models drove up
> the ski jump under their own power; they were not pulled." I believe it;
> I just don't see any use for being able to climb ski jumps in first gear
> with special tires.


Me neither.....do not have a crane or chopper to put me there in the
first place.....;-(
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Alan Baker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 223rem wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pooh Bear wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [email protected] wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>I saw this advertisement from Audi on their second records on
> > > > > > >>driving
> > > > > > >>up Kaipola ski jump in Finland. It was a rather impressive
> > > > > > >>achievement
> > > > > > >>and photos. I could not believe that a car can climb a hill with
> > > > > > >>slope
> > > > > > >>of 80 degrees,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 37.5 degrees actually.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wonder if the AWD was really useful at that angle. RWD
> > > > > > should have been enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > At this angle, in terrain (no snow or ice) you will need grip.
> > > > > Without AWD or 4WD you will be left with a spinning (rear) wheel.
> > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > Erik-Jan.
> > > >
> > > > You really should study physics a little...
> > >
> > > Why? We are talking about an angle of 37.5 degrees here which can be
> > > done with most 4x4's with low range T-case. On tarmac you will even
> > > succeed without spinning wheels.
> >
> > Your missing the point. At 37.5 degrees, almost the entire weight of the
> > vehicle will be on the rear wheels. Take a wheelbase of 8' for example
> > and assume a 50-50 weight distribution. If the centre of mass is located
> > at 8/2 * 80% = 3.2 feet, then the entire weight of the vehicle would be
> > on the rear wheels on a 80% or 37.5 degree slope.
>
> My experience with a hill nearby, (about 25 to 30 degrees) grassland.
> Easy to climb with 4wd engaged, no spinning wheels. In 2wd mode the car
> won't move an inch, the rear wheels were spinning though (LSD).
> Kind regards,
> Erik-Jan.

I seriously doubt that the hill is 25 to 30 degrees. Use an inclinometer
and tell us the results...

>
>
>
> > Hence the OP was suggesting that only RWD would be necessary.
> >
> > --
> > Alan Baker
> > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
> > to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
> > if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
 


Alan Baker wrote:

>
> I seriously doubt that the hill is 25 to 30 degrees. Use an inclinometer
> and tell us the results...
>
Two inclinometers mounted. One to prevent me from rolling sideways and
the other one for the driving direction or rolling backwards if you like
;-(
Here they are: http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper/image.htm
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 
"Erik-Jan Geniets" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Alan Baker wrote:
>> I seriously doubt that the hill is 25 to 30 degrees. Use an inclinometer
>> and tell us the results...
> Two inclinometers mounted. One to prevent me from rolling sideways and
> the other one for the driving direction or rolling backwards if you like
> ;-(
> Here they are: http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper/image.htm
> Kind regards,
> Erik-Jan.

And the round goes to Erik-Jan. Really Alan, I have climbed 45 degree
slopes in my Jeep, and for sure my front wheels were actually on the ground
and contributed to the climb. I don't bother trying it in 2WD, lol. It is
just not that big of a problem with a capable vehicle.
Tomes


 
"Erik-Jan Geniets" wrote

> Here they are: http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper/image.htm

Interesting picture.
I've never seen an clinometer of this kind,
but I can explain how it works:
Outer upper scale means up hill in percent (not grade),
outer lower scale down hill,
inner upper scale acceleration,
inner lower scale negative acc. (braking).

I.e. calculate what slope is equivalent to 3m/s^2:
3/9.8 (1g=9.8m/s^2) = 0.306 (the sinus of the angle)
gradient (in percent) is the tangens =0.32.

The words "gut - schwach - schlecht" (good-week-bad)
are for indicating braking performance (on flat terrain).
But of course not applicable for modern cars

Cheers,

Thomas


 


"Thomas Schäfer" wrote:
>
> "Erik-Jan Geniets" wrote
>
> > Here they are: http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper/image.htm
>
> Interesting picture.
> I've never seen an clinometer of this kind,
> but I can explain how it works:
> Outer upper scale means up hill in percent (not grade),
> outer lower scale down hill,
> inner upper scale acceleration,
> inner lower scale negative acc. (braking).

Yes, thanks. The questions on that old page are as old. 2002 I Guess.
In the mean time I figured out how it works.
The up and downhill percentages are very accurate compared to roadsigns
as long as you do not accelerate or brake.
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.


> I.e. calculate what slope is equivalent to 3m/s^2:
> 3/9.8 (1g=9.8m/s^2) = 0.306 (the sinus of the angle)
> gradient (in percent) is the tangens =0.32.
>
> The words "gut - schwach - schlecht" (good-week-bad)
> are for indicating braking performance (on flat terrain).
> But of course not applicable for modern cars
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Thomas Schäfer" wrote:
> >
> > "Erik-Jan Geniets" wrote
> >
> > > Here they are: http://www.fotograaf.com/trooper/image.htm
> >
> > Interesting picture.
> > I've never seen an clinometer of this kind,
> > but I can explain how it works:
> > Outer upper scale means up hill in percent (not grade),
> > outer lower scale down hill,
> > inner upper scale acceleration,
> > inner lower scale negative acc. (braking).
>
> Yes, thanks. The questions on that old page are as old. 2002 I Guess.
> In the mean time I figured out how it works.
> The up and downhill percentages are very accurate compared to roadsigns
> as long as you do not accelerate or brake.
> Kind regards,
> Erik-Jan.

So I'm betting you were climbing a hill with a 20 - 30 *percent* grade...

>
>
> > I.e. calculate what slope is equivalent to 3m/s^2:
> > 3/9.8 (1g=9.8m/s^2) = 0.306 (the sinus of the angle)
> > gradient (in percent) is the tangens =0.32.
> >
> > The words "gut - schwach - schlecht" (good-week-bad)
> > are for indicating braking performance (on flat terrain).
> > But of course not applicable for modern cars

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
 


Alan Baker wrote:

>
> So I'm betting you were climbing a hill with a 20 - 30 *percent* grade...


Yes, also. Turacher Höhe in Austria, old Vulcano in Kärnten. Tarmac in
the winter. Some snow/ice here and there. 23 percent. At the base off
the mountain there is a road sign in German which reads "4 wheel drive
car's only"
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:

> Alan Baker wrote:
>
> >
> > So I'm betting you were climbing a hill with a 20 - 30 *percent* grade...
>
>
> Yes, also. Turacher Höhe in Austria, old Vulcano in Kärnten. Tarmac in
> the winter. Some snow/ice here and there. 23 percent. At the base off
> the mountain there is a road sign in German which reads "4 wheel drive
> car's only"
> Kind regards,
> Erik-Jan.

And on a 20 *percent* grade, your vehicle's weight is going to be pretty
equally distributed on both axles.

On an 80% grade, the Audi's weight is going to be almost entirely on its
*rear* wheels.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
 


Alan Baker wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Erik-Jan Geniets <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Alan Baker wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > So I'm betting you were climbing a hill with a 20 - 30 *percent* grade...
> >
> >
> > Yes, also. Turacher Höhe in Austria, old Vulcano in Kärnten. Tarmac in
> > the winter. Some snow/ice here and there. 23 percent. At the base off
> > the mountain there is a road sign in German which reads "4 wheel drive
> > car's only"
> > Kind regards,
> > Erik-Jan.
>
> And on a 20 *percent* grade, your vehicle's weight is going to be pretty
> equally distributed on both axles.

I guess so with the engine in front.
Erik-Jan.



> On an 80% grade, the Audi's weight is going to be almost entirely on its
> *rear* wheels.
>
 
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