Variable brake pedal feel

Hi all.

For some time now I've had a variable brake pedal feel on my 1995 defender 90. Sometimes/days it would seem good and firm, others it would feel inconsistent and soft.

Anyway, I've done alot of work on the brakes over the last year. They've been a right pain in the arse. But everything has been replaced with OEM items except the vacuum pump. Everything!

Saturday I had to change a brake pipe that I had kinked while messing. Bled the system manually and with the eezi bleed. After I used the pressure bleeder the brakes felt better, very firm when engine off, no creep or anything and didn't rise to pumping the pedal.
All good untill I took it for a run. The inconsistency was back, but worse than before I tackled the brake pipe I thought. Unless it was because I was checking for faults.

I came back, gave it another manual bleed and it was totally free of air. And no leaks present at all. Tried again on a road test and still the same.

So been as the brake pedal felt so good with the engine off (at standstill) I decided to take it on a private road and test the brakes to see if they were consistent without the vacuum pump pipe attached to the servo.

They were pretty consistent untill I came to turn. Then immediately after the pedal would sink much lower and take many pumps to regain it back to the good position and back to fine while driving in a straight line . I always thought it was when I reversed the vehicle in the past, usually backing off my drive. But of course I have to turn while reversing. So this problem has always been apparent.

Now, I've checked the wheel bearings by rocking them, and I can't feel any play that way. However I do get a clicking noise on the front drivers side wheel and very miniscule movement when I rock it. Which doesn't occur when someone presses the brake pedal and checks it. But I didn't think this would be enough to cause such intermittency in the brakes.

Before I go and buy a smaller torque wrench and a hub socket. Is there anything else it could be? Does it sound like wheel bearings to you guys? All bearings are new or in good shape anyway.

Sorry for the long winded post. Many thanks.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Is it possible the servo is not working correctly every time. This may cause the pedal to sink lower when the servo is working and be solid when it is not. Only mentioned it as my servo has a crack in the body next to the master cylinder mount face, and it was intermittent, I did silicon seal it temporarily until the new one arrives. The rubber grommet for the vac pipe can leak too.

they still have drums on the back?

kes86 said:

Is it possible the servo is not working correctly every time. This may cause the pedal to sink lower when the servo is working and be solid when it is not. Only mentioned it as my servo has a crack in the body next to the master cylinder mount face, and it was intermittent, I did silicon seal it temporarily until the new one arrives. The rubber grommet for the vac pipe can leak too.

Click to expand...

kes86 said:

Is it possible the servo is not working correctly every time. This may cause the pedal to sink lower when the servo is working and be solid when it is not. Only mentioned it as my servo has a crack in the body next to the master cylinder mount face, and it was intermittent, I did silicon seal it temporarily until the new one arrives. The rubber grommet for the vac pipe can leak too.

Click to expand...

That's exactly what I thought. Hense me disconnected the servo pipe to rule this out.

However how come the pedal Is hard and firm (obviously no servo assistance) untill I turn the vehicle. Straight line in perfect!

Wheel bearings ?

ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90 said:

That's exactly what I thought. Hense me disconnected the servo pipe to rule this out.

However how come the pedal Is hard and firm (obviously no servo assistance) untill I turn the vehicle. Straight line in perfect!

Wheel bearings ?

Click to expand...

if the wheel bearing were really bad, i guess it could push the pads and pistons in, which could do it. but i'd have thought they'd be so bad at that point that you'd know it!

if you do have drums on the rear, then the cams can cause this is they slip.

you can check the different bits by clamping the flexihose. one for the rear, one each for the two fronts.

Have you confirmed that both flexi pipes on the front are ok?

Seems weird that turning made it funny.....

I'd suggest getting someone sat in the front, engine on, turn wheels and press brakes while you check all the flexi pipes for any balooning....

trax said:

if the wheel bearing were really bad, i guess it could push the pads and pistons in, which could do it. but i'd have thought they'd be so bad at that point that you'd know it!

if you do have drums on the rear, then the cams can cause this is they slip.

you can check the different bits by clamping the flexihose. one for the rear, one each for the two fronts.

Click to expand...

Cheers trax. I've got discs all round mate, with new stainless flexi lines

gse1986 said:

Have you confirmed that both flexi pipes on the front are ok?

Seems weird that turning made it funny.....

I'd suggest getting someone sat in the front, engine on, turn wheels and press brakes while you check all the flexi pipes for any balooning....

Click to expand...

I will double check the flexis, but they are 6 months old stainless braided lines. Thankyou!

ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90 said:

Cheers trax. I've got discs all round mate, with new stainless flexi lines

Click to expand...

ah right. that's the downside to stainless, you cant clamp em to isolate the caliper with the issue

trax said:

ah right. that's the downside to stainless, you cant clamp em to isolate the caliper with the issue

Click to expand...

I've noticed that mate. When undoing any unions it doesn't half make a mess with fluid loss without clamping them.

If it was a caliper fault, surely this would be evident in a straight line too. Not just turning?

I think I'll order a hub socket online and borrow a torque wrench and see if it's these wheel bearings

ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90 said:

I've noticed that mate. When undoing any unions it doesn't half make a mess with fluid loss without clamping them.

If it was a caliper fault, surely this would be evident in a straight line too. Not just turning?

I think I'll order a hub socket online and borrow a torque wrench and see if it's these wheel bearings

Click to expand...

well if you could have clamped, you could have clamped the bad bearing side and on a test road see if it made any difference.

if it didn't then it's not the bearing causing the rotor to push against the pads, pushing the piston in. so when you brake you need to push the caliper out again and then pump again to stop.

trax said:

well if you could have clamped, you could have clamped the bad bearing side and on a test road see if it made any difference.

if it didn't then it's not the bearing causing the rotor to push against the pads, pushing the piston in. so when you brake you need to push the caliper out again and then pump again to stop.

Click to expand...

Thanks mate. If it's not the bearings could it be anything else while turning? No leaks at all. Flexis not catching or restricted in anyway. New discs and not warped

ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90 said:

Thanks mate. If it's not the bearings could it be anything else while turning? No leaks at all. Flexis not catching or restricted in anyway. New discs and not warped

Click to expand...

can you replicate it if you axle stand the front up and turn the wheel?

trax said:

can you replicate it if you axle stand the front up and turn the wheel?

Click to expand...

I can hear a clicking when I jack the front up and rock the wheel at 12 o clock. Which totally dissappears when someone presses the brake pedal. So even though I can't feel any obvious movement from bearings. There must be enough to show significant difference in movement on rocking each wheel compared to when someone presses the brake pedal.

I just thought that it was tyre movement on the rim. Or suspension movement. Not wheel bearings. I've felt plenty of worse bearings in the past with no reported brake troubles. But then again they weren't new calipers on those vehicles, so perhaps the pistons wouldn't push back so easily?

Right guys, bit of an update.


This evening I adjusted the bearings on all four wheels (jacked up vehicle with wheels on and removed drive flanges).
I started with passenger front and adjusted the pre load as per the Rave workshop manual. Same with drivers side front.
Then moved to the rear and did one at a time to find the preload that the Rave manual states wasn't enough for the rear bearings to take out the play. So I tightened the preload nut as tight as it would go before the wheel started binding. Then lowered the vehicle off the jack to find no difference with the rears really.# Anyway, took it for a road test, the pedal was still intermittent.

Went around the vehicle again rocking the wheels hard in the 12 o clock position, to find the drivers side front had movement and was making a clicking sound when rocked. Which dissappeared when the brake pedal was pressed (could be pad retainers). Drive flange came off again, scrapped the Rave manual and just tightened the bearings up as tight as it would go before excessively binding.# This was 120Nm!!! (new bearings few months back)

Went out again on a road test,# and in general driving it did seem considerably better. I could live with it like that even though it wasn't perfect! (But the bearings aren't going to last long) However, still when reversing or cornering at slow speeds,# the pedal travel increases.###

Any body got a clue? Should the play at the wheels be exactly the same with brakes applied, and just sitting normal,# Basically no play?


Last thing I do want to add... The rear caliper on the passenger side, sits over to one side. For example, it doesn't sit central on the disc. It sits closer to the diff. So I spaced the caliper off the axle casing holes with some fine washers, it's closer than it was. But not perfect!

Can anyone help me?# I'm p***ing into the wind with this problem. It's driving me crazy.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Just googled it and the general consensus is that the wheel bearings are on their way out

2001 Ranger - brake pedal goes soft only when sharply turning left - Car Talk

Spongey brake pedal after hard cornering - NASIOC

For the cost of new bearings is it worth a try? I appreciate you've done them recently but something is a miss the them

Marmaduke said:

Just googled it and the general consensus is that the wheel bearings are on their way out

2001 Ranger - brake pedal goes soft only when sharply turning left - Car Talk

Spongey brake pedal after hard cornering - NASIOC

For the cost of new bearings is it worth a try? I appreciate you've done them recently but something is a miss the them

Click to expand...

Cheers Marmaduke. I spose I could try new bearings. Like you say, something isn't right. Could it be the stub axle? Being worn out perhaps? I only fit genuine timken bearings as well.

I was wondering if the rear left stub axle was bent, been as it's showing either the caliper over to one side. Or the disc over

ONE LIFE LIVE IT. D90 said:

Cheers Marmaduke. I spose I could try new bearings. Like you say, something isn't right. Could it be the stub axle? Being worn out perhaps? I only fit genuine timken bearings as well.

I was wondering if the rear left stub axle was bent, been as it's showing either the caliper over to one side. Or the disc over

Click to expand...

Everything can fail, you'd see how well the bearings are fitting to the stub axle if you striped it down. As for the rears that would be a weird angle for the stub axle to bend, are the pads wearing uniformly?

Marmaduke said:

Everything can fail, you'd see how well the bearings are fitting to the stub axle if you striped it down. As for the rears that would be a weird angle for the stub axle to bend, are the pads wearing uniformly?

Click to expand...

Good point. I seem to remember having problems with that wheel bearing in the past on the front drivers side. Hense me replacing it. I'm now wondering if the stub axle is knackered on the front.

And regarding the rear caliper positioning. No mate that rear side was wearing on the skew. Half the disc was going rusty (another post) and thought it was down the faulty new calipers. But beleive it could be down the the postioning of the caliper/or the disc postioning being out