TD4 sluggish

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My daughters 2004 TD4 started to 'act up' just as we got to Glasgow airport. Think it took her 3 hrs to 'plod home'. The car subsequently 'packed up' at utban speeds about a week later. Started straight away though. It has become difficult to start(though not impossible) and there is smoke at the exhaust which she says is neither black or white, 'kindoff greyy blue' On the trip to Glasgow we used the injector cleaner recommended on here(Commas) and the car ran great until we slowed down due to traffic. Looking online(of course here) and various YouTube videos it looks like a potential injector issue. The engine does 'wobble' at idle which could indicate a dodgy injector(or two).

One of the now many jobs I have to do when I get back home is a leak back test, after I change the fuel filter for an OEM one first. I have done quite a few little jobs mentioned on here, cleaning the inlet manifold being one...failing to fit an EGR delete kit being another, PCV upgrade, general service etc. The inlet will get a good seeing too again next time I'm home too...Every job I have done has made the car run better(in my opinion) but has made some other issues seem worse. I suspect that I will be removing the injectors to have them refurbished when back in Scotland.

Job List(No particular order)
Replace Fuel Filter(with OEM)
Remove MAF sensor wiring when engine running(to see if its actually working)
Clean Inlet Manifold (again)
Attempt EGR Fitting (again)
Leak Back Test on Injectors
Replace all Window Regulators
Potentially Remove Injectors to be Refurbished
Change Oil on:
Diff
IRD
Gearbox
Powersteering
Brake Fluid
Maybe Coolant
New Hoses
Inspect closely all vaccum lines etc...
 
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Hi all. Quick update on my car. Got new MAF sensor put in (£200!!!), and it's made no difference at all. I've now been told it's "probably" the fuel injectors now, and it's going to cost £150 each and at least £300 labour, taking it to at least £900. Is it worth taking it to a main dealer to see if they can actually diagnose what's wrong (£95 per hour). Thanks for any help.
 
ScottyDave said:
Hi all. Quick update on my car. Got new MAF sensor put in (£200!!!), and it's made no difference at all. I've now been told it's "probably" the fuel injectors now, and it's going to cost £150 each and at least £300 labour, taking it to at least £900. Is it worth taking it to a main dealer to see if they can actually diagnose what's wrong (£95 per hour). Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
Stop there. Did anyone knowledgeable hook up a compatible diagnostic reader to read MAF and fuelling values? If you find nothing wrong with MAF readings, there’s no reason to change it; you can always just unplug it and look for an improvement as a simple test.

What diagnostics tests were done to lead them to the injectors? Idle balance? Leakback? You can do this last test yourself, with no special tools other than a £25 kit from ebay. @searchengine has a link.

Any reasonable home mechanic can swap parts until the problem goes away. But it’s expensive. You don’t pay a garage high hourly labour charges to guess like that. I wouldn’t stump up £900 for the word ‘probably’.

Local diesel specialist? Landy independent? Main dealer?
 
Hi guineafowl. When I took it to second garage they just said straight out it was MAF sensor. So I paid the £200, they put new one in, made no difference. I then took it to another garage to get brakes done, and they told me it was injectors. I hate paying all this money to find out what's not wrong with it.
 
The second garage said it was the MAF without testing - not even an unplug test?

The third garage - did they run any tests on the injectors?
 
ScottyDave said:
They did no MAF sensor tests, just told me that's what it was. 3rd garage haven't done any tests. I just want to take it to an honest garage that'll tell me what's wrong.
Click to expand...

How about a new thread asking for decent FL garages in your area? Run a mile from your previous garages.
 
ScottyDave said:
They did no MAF sensor tests, just told me that's what it was. 3rd garage haven't done any tests. I just want to take it to an honest garage that'll tell me what's wrong.
Click to expand...

ScottyDave, It looks like you are being dealt a hard lesson by these 'mechanics' and that is unfortunate.

Just recap on what symptoms you are suffering from, please?

As mentioned above, a simple test regards the MAF would be to unplug it(once the car has been started) and take it for a drive. Any improvement would point to a MAF out of 'spec'. Unfortunately you have already paid out £200-00 on a faulty diagnosis.

Fuel injectors may be the issue but lets get the 'cheaper' options out the way first. Have you changed the fuel filter for a OEM/genuine one since you bought the car? If not, that is where to start. Also, air filter, the PCV valve filter should be changed if their history is unknown...(they may be dirty/blocked?) These are 'service items' that cost very little and some(PCV filter/fuel filter) are overlooked/ignored on services. Regards fuel filter..ALWAYS fit OEM/genuine ones. The cheap filter have poor reputations. Don't go there. Also, you may have a leak in one of the air inlet hoses, sometimes difficult to see/hear. They need physically checking and replacing if needed. Your EGR valve may be severly clogged by carbon deposits, remove and check/clean. These are not overly expensive but do fail. It is possible to buy an 'EGR delete kit' for relatively little outlay. Finally (there are many more things I have missed) what fuel do you put into your car? TD4's do not like cheap supermarket diesel, especially as modern fuels have a bio mix. ALWAYS use a branded fuel, better quality from a normal forecourt garage. Add an diesel injector cleaner too, once a month. (Comma/REDEX etc) Short drives kill modern diesel engines. Long, motorway drives help keep your engine cleaner overall. You may notice that you engine runs WORSE once some treatments are added(in my experience) but in time things should improve. Finally, before you spend anymore money, spend some of your time reading through the threads on this site. Concentrate on the performance orientated threads(like this one) to see how members confronted their issues.

Most problems with these cars(as with most) require a little knowledge, some basic tools and the shared experiences of others. The modern 'mechanic' will swap parts for you all day, at your expense without a second thought....and as you have found out, not fix your vehicles problems.

Good luck....as with most things in life it is the BASICS that matter....
 
MollyNomad said:
ScottyDave, It looks like you are being dealt a hard lesson by these 'mechanics' and that is unfortunate.

Just recap on what symptoms you are suffering from, please?

As mentioned above, a simple test regards the MAF would be to unplug it(once the car has been started) and take it for a drive. Any improvement would point to a MAF out of 'spec'. Unfortunately you have already paid out £200-00 on a faulty diagnosis.

Fuel injectors may be the issue but lets get the 'cheaper' options out the way first. Have you changed the fuel filter for a OEM/genuine one since you bought the car? If not, that is where to start. Also, air filter, the PCV valve filter should be changed if their history is unknown...(they may be dirty/blocked?) These are 'service items' that cost very little and some(PCV filter/fuel filter) are overlooked/ignored on services. Regards fuel filter..ALWAYS fit OEM/genuine ones. The cheap filter have poor reputations. Don't go there. Also, you may have a leak in one of the air inlet hoses, sometimes difficult to see/hear. They need physically checking and replacing if needed. Your EGR valve may be severly clogged by carbon deposits, remove and check/clean. These are not overly expensive but do fail. It is possible to buy an 'EGR delete kit' for relatively little outlay. Finally (there are many more things I have missed) what fuel do you put into your car? TD4's do not like cheap supermarket diesel, especially as modern fuels have a bio mix. ALWAYS use a branded fuel, better quality from a normal forecourt garage. Add an diesel injector cleaner too, once a month. (Comma/REDEX etc) Short drives kill modern diesel engines. Long, motorway drives help keep your engine cleaner overall. You may notice that you engine runs WORSE once some treatments are added(in my experience) but in time things should improve. Finally, before you spend anymore money, spend some of your time reading through the threads on this site. Concentrate on the performance orientated threads(like this one) to see how members confronted their issues.

Most problems with these cars(as with most) require a little knowledge, some basic tools and the shared experiences of others. The modern 'mechanic' will swap parts for you all day, at your expense without a second thought....and as you have found out, not fix your vehicles problems.

Good luck....as with most things in life it is the BASICS that matter....
Click to expand...

I said all that and on June 13th when the original question was asked. As far as I can see, little of the advice given has been followed.
 
ScottyDave said:
Hi all. Quick update on my car. Got new MAF sensor put in (£200!!!), and it's made no difference at all. I've now been told it's "probably" the fuel injectors now, and it's going to cost £150 each and at least £300 labour, taking it to at least £900. Is it worth taking it to a main dealer to see if they can actually diagnose what's wrong (£95 per hour). Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...
Didn't you do this in July? Why do the same thing again? :confused:
ScottyDave said:
Aaaaaargh. Got new MAF sensor and glow plugs done. Still a bugger to start when cold, and still no power in each gear until I get to 2k revs. Meant to be going away in caravan next week, but I'm worried it won't have power to tow it.
Click to expand...
 
There are many little faults that can cause sluggish performance, as long as they are real faults. Remember that the TD4 Freelander has just 110 Bhp, in a vehicle that weighs about 1600 Kgs empty. Performance can hardly be described as sprightly, even when running well.

However for genuine low performance, you can't beat driving the vehicle while monitoring all the live data. So you need to check boost pressure, HP fuel rail values, LP values, MAP values and MAF values. The readings can then help a knowledgeable technician pinpoint the trouble. If it's running smoothly though, I doubt it's the injectors.
 
Nodge68 said:
There are many little faults that can cause sluggish performance, as long as they are real faults. Remember that the TD4 Freelander has just 110 Bhp, in a vehicle that weighs about 1600 Kgs empty. Performance can hardly be described as sprightly, even when running well.

However for genuine low performance, you can't beat driving the vehicle while monitoring all the live data. So you need to check boost pressure, HP fuel rail values, LP values, MAP values and MAF values. The readings can then help a knowledgeable technician pinpoint the trouble. If it's running smoothly though, I doubt it's the injectors.
Click to expand...
The problem I find with my scanner is you see all the data and don’t know what the base line should be as I don’t know where to look for the base line values
 
Madmustang said:
The problem I find with my scanner is you see all the data and don’t know what the base line should be as I don’t know where to look for the base line values
Click to expand...

The exact correct values vary from engine to engine, EDC to EDC. The EDC is semi-self-calibrating, so it tweeks various parameters to suit each engine/sensor set. But it's relatively easy to tell if something is amiss, if you know what to look for. For instance the rail pressure should be around 25,000 Kpa at idle and up to around 125,000 Kpa at full power/rpm.

The MAP should show 100 Kpa, engine off, ignition on or at idle. Up to about 220 Kpa at full boost.

MAF is a strange one as the actual values varie massively between different MAFs. As long as its returned value increases in proportion as the engine speed increases, then it's working.
Low pressure fuel supply needs to be maintained at over 350 Kpa, preferably 380 Kpa, regardless of engine power output.
Hope this helps.
 
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