L322 RR Vogue Mk3 to buy or not to buy? Trans failsafe problem

holidaychicken · Jul 27, 2016

As already mentioned get yourself some range rover specific diagnostics like the allcomms as rangerover faults don't always translate into generic fault codes well as there can be so many reported faults caused by seemingly unrelated ECU's.
If you start changing out large components like transmission and transfer box without proper diagnosis it will quickly digest any budget you had and some that you didn't have and won't necessarily fix the problem.
As saint says it could just be the common fault of transfer box shift motor which is few hundred pounds to buy second hand and very easy to change.
The fault you have isn't likely to be caused by overheating but see what your man says and take it from there

NicMax · Aug 1, 2016

Hi guys, i am here at JB transmissions and the guy plugged his machine on it and it says "Gear monitoring 5" he says that its very likely that the transmission is on its way out, and very little change it could be the transfer box/transfer motor. So he is offering a full rebuilt. £1000 fitted, with new valves, pistons etc. What do you guys think. He says that if i want, he can still change the oil and filter for £30 as i have it with me, but that it would be a waste of money. Should i do it anyway?

holidaychicken · Aug 1, 2016

I am not following, what is the very little change bit ?
If it was me I would hang fire and talk to Bemble / RRPhil as he is the only person i would trust to supply a refurbed ZF5HP24 that is fully tested including the valve block which you could still get fitted by your man.
So many people have the transmission replaced only to find it fails again in 12 months because of underlying valve blco problems which is more common with the diesel box but i wouldn't commit to anything straight away.
If he is saying it could be the transfer box motor, is he including that as well with the £1000?
i would also be replacing the torque converter as that is one of the main weaker points of the transmission and a very common fail and only two companies i know of that can refurbish those.
Just my opinion

NicMax · Aug 1, 2016

I meant small chance that it was the transfer box!
I am taking the car with me. He said that if after taking the gb down, the torque converter needs refurbishing, he will send it to a company in Bristol that refurbish them for an extra £250. And if after refurbishing the GB the car still gives me problems and it is the transfer box, he will fix it free of charge. Not 100% convinced and still want to do the oil and filter change first.

holidaychicken · Aug 1, 2016

I don't think he can tell if the TC needs refurbing as they are sealed units and if it was me while you were in there I would replace it anyway for a refurbed unit from JPAT or Sussex Autos, JPAT is in Bristol.
I don't think it would be the TB but imagine paying £1000 to have a box refurbed and then having the same fault and then he replaces the TB shift motor and it cures it, you are £1000 out of pocket for no reason where you could replace the TB motor with a used one for £300.
I would talk to Phil if you can as he will diagnose your fault no doubt and advise you what to do or Saint.
if you were selling the car then sorting it for £1000 might not be a bad idea but if you are keeping it then i would want to future proof it for as long as possible.
I think the fluid change is still a good idea as if the fluid is shot then it's going to throw all sorts of faults

NicMax · Aug 1, 2016

I am getting the oil and filter changed right now and this is how the pan looks.. The oil is very very dirty, but no signs of the metal shavings at all

Saint.V8 · Aug 1, 2016

That oil looks well past its best and possibly burnt through overheating or overhearmted clutch plates.....

Does it smell burnt??

NicMax · Aug 1, 2016

I will look for the advise of Phil or Saint as advised, but do you think that it could be a bit of good news? (Not having the metal shavings all over the pan)

NicMax · Aug 1, 2016

Saint.V8 said:
That oil looks well past its best and possibly burnt through overheating or overhearmted clutch plates.....

Does it smell burnt??

Hi Saint, It does smell burnt and it definately its way past its best

Saint.V8 · Aug 1, 2016

No metal shavings is a reasonable sign...but the burnt oil is not a great one!!

I would say hold fire on the gb change, see if the guy will hold his price for a while and say you will defo come back to him for the work once you have had a chance to see what a couple of oil changes show.

There is little chance the TB is causing a 5th gear error....the GB monitors the input speed and the output speed, it knows what the output speeds should be for a given input speed, so if there is a difference above a certain figure it will throw a fault.

It could be your 5th gear clutch or one of the brake packs are slipping slightly causing a reduction in 5th gear output......it could also just be a speed sensor at fault!.....but looking at the oil, something has got quite warm in the box.

I would change the oil a couple of times over the next few weeks to try and dilute that old, burnt oil....then do another change a month - 6weeks after that and see what the oil looks like again.

That'll give you a few weeks of research time and also to try and discuss things with Bemble/RRPhil as he is a fecking genius!

If your GB guy is a stand up bloke who knows his mustard, he'll hold his quote until you make a final decision based on further research.....if he won't, it may be a sign he is just after a quick grand ..... only you can tell as you are the one standing in front of him!

Grrrrrr · Aug 1, 2016

That's pretty ****ty ATF if it has only been in there 40k miles.

Rebuilt gearbox at 120k but as HC and Saint suggest, not the cooler or valve block?

NicMax · Aug 1, 2016

Saint.V8 said:
No metal shavings is a reasonable sign...but the burnt oil is not a great one!!

I would say hold fire on the gb change, see if the guy will hold his price for a while and say you will defo come back to him for the work once you have had a chance to see what a couple of oil changes show.

There is little chance the TB is causing a 5th gear error....the GB monitors the input speed and the output speed, it knows what the output speeds should be for a given input speed, so if there is a difference above a certain figure it will throw a fault.

It could be your 5th gear clutch or one of the brake packs are slipping slightly causing a reduction in 5th gear output......it could also just be a speed sensor at fault!.....but looking at the oil, something has got quite warm in the box.

I would change the oil a couple of times over the next few weeks to try and dilute that old, burnt oil....then do another change a month - 6weeks after that and see what the oil looks like again.

That'll give you a few weeks of research time and also to try and discuss things with Bemble/RRPhil as he is a fecking genius!

If your GB guy is a stand up bloke who knows his mustard, he'll hold his quote until you make a final decision based on further research.....if he won't, it may be a sign he is just after a quick grand ..... only you can tell as you are the one standing in front of him!

I will definately wait before I go ahead with the rebuilt of the GB. He said that £995 was their standard price for rebuilding RR's and X5's Diesel gearboxes, so I am sure he will hold the price. His mechanic was there before the owner arrived and he told me that he strips the whole gearbox and that they replace the valves, pistons, clutches, etc with new parts and give a 6mths or 10k miles warranty with a GB oil change after the first 3 months, which the owner later confirmed. TBH, they didn't seems to be pushy at all as they told to bring the car when i was ready or that they could call me as soon as they had a free ramp to work on it, if I wanted. I found the company on ebay and it wasn't based too far away from me, they have not been recommended by anyone.

I would much rather get the work done by someone recommended like Bemble/RRPhil, So I will get in touch with him, to see what his advise is.

I will get more GB oil and will take the car for a GB flush in a week or 2 to see if helps. I drove it around today after the GB service and I did notice a slight improvement on the acceleration, I am not sure if its just me or if the GB has nothing to do with it, but the car felt smoother, specially when accelerating on 1st and 2nd, I felt like I didn't have to step on the accelerator as hard to ge the car moving. It was all central London driving, so unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to go over 30-35mph to check the higher gears. The car does shake a little bit when on Drive and stationary, I was like that since the beginning, but I forgot to mention it.

Saint.V8 · Aug 2, 2016

What size wheels you on??

Diesel tend to shake a bit at idle with anything over 19" rims....LR released a tech bulletin about vibrations with 20" rims.

holidaychicken · Aug 2, 2016

Don't forget you have only changed half the oil as the rest is in the system and TC so doing a second oil change will dilute the bad oil further with the good oil. Yours is a petrol isn't it which has a ZF box as opposed to the Gm box in the diesel which is a poor system in comparison ? edit- Just remembered you have the GM box in your diesel (sorry been out with mr guinness and he is a generous chap)- the weak point in these is the valve block and the part that is generally ignored when the transmission is 'refurbished' as the valve block wears lowering the pressure on the torque converter lock up clutch causing the clutch to burn out prematurely generally after 10K miles in to a refurb or just after your warranty has run out. Try and talk to Bemble regarding having the sonnax conversion or at least ask the transmission specialist if the valve block has had the conversion / upgrade done to the valve block.
Just take your time with the RR or you will end up trying to replace the whole car a piece at a time like i did

Saint.V8 · Aug 2, 2016

holidaychicken said:
Don't forget you have only changed half the oil as the rest is in the system and TC so doing a second oil change will dilute the bad oil further with the good oil. Yours is a petrol isn't it which has a ZF box as opposed to the Gm box in the diesel which is a poor system in comparison ?
Just take your time with the RR or you will end up trying to replace the whole car a piece at a time like i did

He has a diesel from memory Andy!

holidaychicken · Aug 2, 2016

i know Ant, i just edited my post, damn guinness, well when i say damn guinness i mean i have the week off so expect any input from me to be even more random and potentially useless, see i even had to edit my edited edit

NicMax · Aug 2, 2016

Its a Diesel and its running 22's at the moment, so that explains the shaking.

Should I just do another oil change or get it flushed? The garage where I got the oil changed said that they can do the flush for £60 including refilling it, if I put the oil of course.

I am taking your advise Andy, and taking it easy from now, I will just do one thing at the time.

And again, I really do appreciate all of your advice Andy and Saint. Thank you very much

holidaychicken · Aug 2, 2016

That's ok, we understand that nobody buys a RR because it's a sensible car to buy and that it is an affliction that has been cast upon us and we should look after fellow sufferers

Don't panic Nic, in a couple of months time, you will be poor like us with a well sorted RR and giving out advice to the next poor sod who has fallen for the 'that looks like a pretty British (german) icon of automotive eutopia, i must get myself one of those

look , here comes one now -

Grrrrrr · Aug 2, 2016

ZF box in my Jag is sublime. Pity he has the GM box.

You need to get the oil nicely mixed in before the next flush. Not sure how long that will take. 500 miles? Saint or HC probably know.

Don't drive it hard with that muck in it.

holidaychicken · Aug 2, 2016

I think Ant normally recommends a couple of weeks of normal use to gently mix the fluid without dislodging all the built up crap in the box in one go as happens with a flush.
I think it is semi positive that there isn't any metal filings as i understand the valve block pressure decrease causes the LUC to eat through into the metal backing which then dumps the metal debris into the fluid, around the transmission which kills it convincingly, however, again only guessing but if the fluid is burnt, something is slipping but in my mind is it slipping because the fluid is bad or did the slipping burn the fluid?
I'll stay tuned for the next exciting update and hopefully Bemble might pop along at some point as I am only guessing at this where he could smell that fluid via telepathy.

L322 RR Vogue Mk3 to buy or not to buy? Trans failsafe problem

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