Ratty's Poll - Security devices.
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Below is a post from another forum where I posted the same question (sorry die hard LZ fans.... This place is still my home!)
Written by a chap called Si.
'This is something I've researched extensively over the last year - as my company were developing security products. I'm not going to use this post to promote them (don't worry Martin!), but just try to summarise what I've found.
Much of the research was through talking to Police Officers, Insurance companies and victims of thefts and attempted thefts.
80% of thefts are largely opportunistic, at least to the extent that said vehicle has not been specifically targeted. It was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and vulnerable.
The remainder are targeted either for the specific vehicle or vehicle type.
Only between 1 & 5% of the total are lifted or towed away. A few more percent are dragged off people's drive where the thieves are less likely to be disturbed or heard.
This means that although there is little you can do about the vehicles which are stolen to order - Up to 80% of thefts 'could' be prevented with additional security.
So far as the added security is concerned, as mentioned its biggest effect is the simple deterrent effect. There is also a case of diminishing returns in terms of the difficulty overcoming said device.
For some reason, the key length of time appears to be about two minutes. A device which takes 4 mins to remove doesn't give you double the protection of one which takes two mins. Two mins seems to give the peak deterrant value. I guess if the thief has invested that amount of time, investing more seems more worthwhile if they have not been caught yet. However, two devices which take a given time to overcome, does appear to provide about double the deterrent.
The upshot of this is that a device costing hundreds of pounds which you need a ray gun to remove, is only going to provide about the same deterrent as something cheap & simple.
The conclusion that Law enforcement has come to is you need to adopt a layered approach with the number of layers proportional to the risk in that area. Some devices are obviously better than others, but if a vehicle is stolen, it's more an indication that the number of layers was insufficient than that the devices in question were inadequate themselves.
There is a belief that trackers are worthless - but the statistics of recovered vehicles says different! Many people on Forums tell you that they are too easy to detect and too easy to Jam. Both are true, but if detected, it will have had a deterrent effect except in the cases where they are using a jammer.
From the thieves point of view, the lowest risk strategy is to steal a vehicle, then leave it somewhere like a car park where it cannot be tied to the thief. If the vehicle vanishes, either it had a tracker or someone else has stolen it.
One of my friends has had their 90 stolen twice in the last six months. Both times they found and recovered it thanks to a cheap, Chinese GPS tracker fitted with a PAYG sim card. Based on his experience, I bought one of the same type (A waterproof Motorcycle tracker with 5 day battery backup from a company called Deal Extreme on line).
The most likely Defender to be stolen at the moment is a Td5 - but that may be down to the number on the road versus the price of the parts.
Lastly, it is true that a distinctive vehicle is less likely to be targeted. It's more likely to be recognised than a plain standard vehicle. I'm not a fan of vehicles covered in stickers, but if it helps prevent it being stolen......'
S
Written by a chap called Si.
'This is something I've researched extensively over the last year - as my company were developing security products. I'm not going to use this post to promote them (don't worry Martin!), but just try to summarise what I've found.
Much of the research was through talking to Police Officers, Insurance companies and victims of thefts and attempted thefts.
80% of thefts are largely opportunistic, at least to the extent that said vehicle has not been specifically targeted. It was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and vulnerable.
The remainder are targeted either for the specific vehicle or vehicle type.
Only between 1 & 5% of the total are lifted or towed away. A few more percent are dragged off people's drive where the thieves are less likely to be disturbed or heard.
This means that although there is little you can do about the vehicles which are stolen to order - Up to 80% of thefts 'could' be prevented with additional security.
So far as the added security is concerned, as mentioned its biggest effect is the simple deterrent effect. There is also a case of diminishing returns in terms of the difficulty overcoming said device.
For some reason, the key length of time appears to be about two minutes. A device which takes 4 mins to remove doesn't give you double the protection of one which takes two mins. Two mins seems to give the peak deterrant value. I guess if the thief has invested that amount of time, investing more seems more worthwhile if they have not been caught yet. However, two devices which take a given time to overcome, does appear to provide about double the deterrent.
The upshot of this is that a device costing hundreds of pounds which you need a ray gun to remove, is only going to provide about the same deterrent as something cheap & simple.
The conclusion that Law enforcement has come to is you need to adopt a layered approach with the number of layers proportional to the risk in that area. Some devices are obviously better than others, but if a vehicle is stolen, it's more an indication that the number of layers was insufficient than that the devices in question were inadequate themselves.
There is a belief that trackers are worthless - but the statistics of recovered vehicles says different! Many people on Forums tell you that they are too easy to detect and too easy to Jam. Both are true, but if detected, it will have had a deterrent effect except in the cases where they are using a jammer.
From the thieves point of view, the lowest risk strategy is to steal a vehicle, then leave it somewhere like a car park where it cannot be tied to the thief. If the vehicle vanishes, either it had a tracker or someone else has stolen it.
One of my friends has had their 90 stolen twice in the last six months. Both times they found and recovered it thanks to a cheap, Chinese GPS tracker fitted with a PAYG sim card. Based on his experience, I bought one of the same type (A waterproof Motorcycle tracker with 5 day battery backup from a company called Deal Extreme on line).
The most likely Defender to be stolen at the moment is a Td5 - but that may be down to the number on the road versus the price of the parts.
Lastly, it is true that a distinctive vehicle is less likely to be targeted. It's more likely to be recognised than a plain standard vehicle. I'm not a fan of vehicles covered in stickers, but if it helps prevent it being stolen......'
S
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Ah... More from Si!
'One bit I forgot to add. One thing common to virtually all thefts is the steering lock being broken!
There are two approaches to this. Either the lock barrel is removed/broken by force or the steering wheel is forced to rotate, breaking the steering lock itself. The latter is less common as there is a reasonable chance it will lock again when you are going round a corner!
Most motor manufacturers changed the design of the barrel such that it was much more difficult to break / remove - but not Land Rover!
I'm sure some enterprising company will come up with a way of affording it more protection sooner or later.
I don't think there is much to call it between the different brands of security devices in terms of deterrent value and possibly removal. The big difference is how they fit in with you. Are they easy to fit and easy to store when not in use? For me, that's the biggest problem with a Disclock - having a giant metal Frisbee on the back seat is a sore head waiting to happen!
One of the things that came up in the research was the number of people who buy a product, use it religiously for a few weeks then less and less until it goes to live in their shed because it's inconvenient to use or store in the vehicle. A product is worthless if it's in the shed when the vehicle is attacked!
A few months ago, I talked to a chap outside Tesco who had just had his 110 stolen from the car park while he was inside buying his lunch! He said he had a pedal lock - but it was in the back because he was only going in for a few mins and it took too long to fit. In a way, I was pleased - as if it was fitted, they would probably have stolen my 110 instead!
That's the clincher - by increasing the security you are just making YOUR Land Rover less likely to be stolen than the one down the road with less security. I would rather neither were stolen - but if one is going to vanish, I'd rather it be yours! '
S
'One bit I forgot to add. One thing common to virtually all thefts is the steering lock being broken!
There are two approaches to this. Either the lock barrel is removed/broken by force or the steering wheel is forced to rotate, breaking the steering lock itself. The latter is less common as there is a reasonable chance it will lock again when you are going round a corner!
Most motor manufacturers changed the design of the barrel such that it was much more difficult to break / remove - but not Land Rover!
I'm sure some enterprising company will come up with a way of affording it more protection sooner or later.
I don't think there is much to call it between the different brands of security devices in terms of deterrent value and possibly removal. The big difference is how they fit in with you. Are they easy to fit and easy to store when not in use? For me, that's the biggest problem with a Disclock - having a giant metal Frisbee on the back seat is a sore head waiting to happen!
One of the things that came up in the research was the number of people who buy a product, use it religiously for a few weeks then less and less until it goes to live in their shed because it's inconvenient to use or store in the vehicle. A product is worthless if it's in the shed when the vehicle is attacked!
A few months ago, I talked to a chap outside Tesco who had just had his 110 stolen from the car park while he was inside buying his lunch! He said he had a pedal lock - but it was in the back because he was only going in for a few mins and it took too long to fit. In a way, I was pleased - as if it was fitted, they would probably have stolen my 110 instead!
That's the clincher - by increasing the security you are just making YOUR Land Rover less likely to be stolen than the one down the road with less security. I would rather neither were stolen - but if one is going to vanish, I'd rather it be yours! '
S
Igloo
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I'd be wondering, What about removing the push locks from the doors and fitting an aftermarket central locking system. Thus removing the ability to pick locks etc too.
The new pedal box looks good as it doesn't need to be removed, just opened / shut.
Disk locks seem a bit useless. But a removable steering wheel with boss is much better (IMO).
I like the idea of the cheap chinese tracker too. Hide it under something (like behind the pedal box!).
The new pedal box looks good as it doesn't need to be removed, just opened / shut.
Disk locks seem a bit useless. But a removable steering wheel with boss is much better (IMO).
I like the idea of the cheap chinese tracker too. Hide it under something (like behind the pedal box!).
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Yeh, having a fuel cut off valve, and, occasionally forgetting it's engaged, i can 100% confirm that there is no chance in hell, no matter how much you try that a vehicle will start when the fuel is cut off.
ratty
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I'll tell you what I can but for security reasons I cannot always tell you what the reason is behind what I have said although I wil try where possible to explain.
First off there are several methods of stealing your vehicle. With keys, With a lorry, By starting it and driving it away, by towing it or pushing it away.
Lets start with the driving it away. You can add as many locks to your vehicle as you like but if the oiks have your keys they can undo the locks. DO NOT keep your keys in sight of the front door of your house. Oiks like to fish through letter boxes for keys using fishing rods, garden canes etc.
Keys are also often stolen in house break-ins. I keep a dummy set of keys laying about in plain view and my vehicle keys in my pocket. The dummy set are landy keys and have a fob on em but they will not operate any of the locks or the immobiliser.
Theft using a lorry.
There are 4 general types of lorry that can be used. Hiab (crane), Beaver tail, Slide bed, spec/underlift.
By parking with your steering on full lock, fitting a disclok, making sure the handbrake is on and leaving the vehicle in gear, you can minimise the chances of your vehicle being uplifted by a lorry.
If you park with your wheels in a straight line it is very easy to simply winch the vehicle up the back of a lorry. By turning the wheels on full lock it will double the time taken to load. If a crane is used it will make lifting your vehicle without damaging it extremely difficult. A damaged vehicle isn't worth as much as a non damaged one so your vehicle becomes less desireable. A spec lift/underlift will need to remove your prop or break into your vehicle to take it out of gear and the handbrake off before they can drive off.
Towing a vehicle away is by far the easiest method for theives to steal your landy, short of using a crane. Thieves do not need the engine to work so therefore do not need the accelerator, they do not need your clutch to operate and if they know what they are doing they do not even need brakes. All they need is steering. For this reason protecting the steering using a decent steering lock is the key to keeping your vehicle.
Unfortunately steering wheels are padding for over 2/3 of their thickness. Inside is a thin bit of metal that does not take long to cut through with a hack saw. For this reason any lock that doesn't cover the whole steering wheel is pretty much useless. In some cases they can actually aid in the theft by giving said scumbag extra leverage to break the vehicles own ignition/steering lock before being chopped off. By covering the whole steering wheel with a disclok or similar it is very difficult to be able to forcibly snap the vehicles own steering lock. Having the steering turned on full lock before fitting the disclok further hampers there efforts and also prevents the vehicle simply being pushed or rolled down the road to a quieter spot where more time can be speant and greater noise made.
Driving it away without keys. You would think that this would be relatively hard to do. Unfortunately it is actually pretty easy to do with even the newest defender. All you need to do is to bypass the alarm and immobiliser. This can be by amending the vehicles wiring or by changing the ecu. Later defenders are often stolen by simply unplugging your own ecu and then plugging in an ecu with the security features turned off. The ignition/steering can simply be picked or broken. Again, a steering lock helps prevent this. A padlock and hasp preventing quick access to the ecu is also a cheap an easy option. A clutch claw or similar pedal lock will also help.
With older vehicles a live feed to the key components can be added or an inherent flaw taken advantage of and the vehicle is up and running in seconds.
I'm going to try and explain how a landy (primarily a defender) is broken into and made ready to drive or tow away, what methods are often employed and what measures can be taken to slow down or thwart an attack.
First off the oik has to get into your landy without you knowing about it. The first line of defence is the factory fit alarm. This is extremely easy to get past in its standard form. I can tell you how to protect yourself against it being attacked but cannot say why for security reasons. Right your alarm has two methods of warning you of an attack. the alarm sounder, and the flashing hazard lights.
First off the alarm back-up sounder. Either move it to somewhere else on the vehicle or add a second sounder or even an after market alarm system with the sounder in a different place. Trust me, the oiks know how to get to the original unit and unplug it, therefore it will not sound.
Next, the flashing hazard lights when the alarm sounds. If an alarm sounds at night and the average person even bothers to look out of their bedroom window to they will soon go back to bed if they cannot see anything amiss. The oiks will rip off an indicator unit and twist the wires together. This will blow the flasher fuse and the lights will not flash. Add a low rated fuse inline (approx a foot from the light) on each and every indicator light on your vehicle. If the wires are twisted together only the one light will be knocked out. An oik would have to do every indicator light which is time consuming.
Gaining entry to your vehicle. There are numerousl methods rangeing from picking the door locks (most landy locks are rubbish), bending the door back and pulling the button up, slim jimming or attacking the lock mechanism down the rubber door strip, removing the rear quarter glass window, breaking a window etc etc. In case you think that breaking a window makes lots of noise, it doesn't. It can often be masked by someone coughing or doing it as a car drives past. Unfortunately bar fitting window grills and extra external locks there isn't a lot you can do to combat the actual breaking into of the vehicle. Most methods of getting in are quick and virtually silent. An additional alarm fitted can alert you to an attack once a door has been opened. An alarm with a proxy sensor can alert you before the attack is made. A proxy sensor will 'bark' if it senses somebody lurking alongside the vehicle. A disclok is a clearly visible deterent and can be seen even before the vehicle is broken into. A clutch claw or similar will not be spotted until the intruder is actually inside.
Once into your vehicle the prospective tealeaf now needs to get it away as quickly and quietly as possible. The usual method is to break the steering lock, push the vehicle down the road out of your earshot and then start it or connect it up to the towing vehicle and make good their get away.
I'm hoping I haven't forgotten anything but if I do think of anything else or am prompted to answer anything that may be relevent I will update this post.
I hope this helps others to keep their vehicles safe.
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Igloo
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What's your thoughts on trackers ratty?
What I'm thinking is taking a feed from the battery (perm live) running to somewhere obscure inside the vehicle and then using that.
Not as the only means of defence but if the vehicle does get stolen, You stand a chance of recovery.
I have a list of devices I'd probably fit. (the new pedal box, big disk lock, tracker embeded inside the vehicle, Disable the door locks and use a central locking system to unlock / lock the vehicle, cut off switches etc).
Though it bothers me about how much of an inconviencice it would be. With my bikes they're locked in the garage, to the sunken (concreted in) ground anchor, Then chained to each other also, Both running aftermarket alarms / immobilisers with disklocks on both front wheels.
When i'm out and about I generally just set the alarm / fit the disklock. Unlocking them to go for a ride takes me about 10-15 mins, Depending on how energetic I feel.
Having to spend 10 mins to unbolt everything to drive the vehicle (even if only on a weekend) sounds like a major ball ache. Especially as everything would need to be put back when stopping as this is where alot of thefts appear to be happening at the moment.
What I'm thinking is taking a feed from the battery (perm live) running to somewhere obscure inside the vehicle and then using that.
Not as the only means of defence but if the vehicle does get stolen, You stand a chance of recovery.
I have a list of devices I'd probably fit. (the new pedal box, big disk lock, tracker embeded inside the vehicle, Disable the door locks and use a central locking system to unlock / lock the vehicle, cut off switches etc).
Though it bothers me about how much of an inconviencice it would be. With my bikes they're locked in the garage, to the sunken (concreted in) ground anchor, Then chained to each other also, Both running aftermarket alarms / immobilisers with disklocks on both front wheels.
When i'm out and about I generally just set the alarm / fit the disklock. Unlocking them to go for a ride takes me about 10-15 mins, Depending on how energetic I feel.
Having to spend 10 mins to unbolt everything to drive the vehicle (even if only on a weekend) sounds like a major ball ache. Especially as everything would need to be put back when stopping as this is where alot of thefts appear to be happening at the moment.
ratty
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I have two trains of thought on trackers. For those that are skint I would fit 'tracker stickers' even though the vehicle doesn't have a tracker. The prospective tealeaf has to either bring a tracker jammer to be on the safe side in case you aint bluffing or leave your vehicle laying up for a few days to be sure.
If you have the money then go for it but lay off the 'tracking device fitted' stickers. You don't want the tracker being jammed or removed so you are better off fitting it and then not announcing it.
If I had the money yes I would have a tracking device but I would want summit I can view myself rather than simply using a track back company. I've spent a good few years now learning how to jam and kill tracker signals but even so it just needs to transmit for that one instant to help me find my vehicle. I know how much harder I'd look for my vehicle than the old bill will. If a tracker signal stops the police would have to give up their search.
If/When I get the money up together Ryder is gonna suddenly become my bested friend.
If you have too much security that you have to muck about with every time you drive your landy you will get fed up with fitting it all and become lazy. You are better off buying less and actually using it than buying too much and being too lazy to use it.
johnyelland1234
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I just got myself one of these:
landrover pedal lock security | eBay
Combine that with a padlock that you can't get bolt cutters into and I reckon it's a good security device.
Just stops them from driving it away, although they could still roll/tow.
When you see my land rover in members pics next month, it should be pretty secure.
landrover pedal lock security | eBay
Combine that with a padlock that you can't get bolt cutters into and I reckon it's a good security device.
Just stops them from driving it away, although they could still roll/tow.
When you see my land rover in members pics next month, it should be pretty secure.
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i don't understand pedal boxes... can't you normally just knock a car out of gear anyway without depressing the clutch? (or are all mine just f**ked)
ratty
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RAGNAR BENSON
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Excellent thread.
Can someone tell me how close a fit the Disklok should be on the steering wheel?
Is a loose fit better, or should it grip the wheel? I would think loose is better, or else you could just hack saw the arm off and use both lock and wheel together as a normal steering wheel.
Can someone tell me how close a fit the Disklok should be on the steering wheel?
Is a loose fit better, or should it grip the wheel? I would think loose is better, or else you could just hack saw the arm off and use both lock and wheel together as a normal steering wheel.
blue beasty
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Loose......and you've given the reason why
ratty
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As tight as it can go whilst still rotating easily on the steering wheel.
RAGNAR BENSON
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I have a large Disklock. I hope it's not too large as there is a good inch of play around the wheel. It moves side-to-side quite a bit. Maybe I should've gone for the medium.
The design of the Disklok allows someone to potentially grip the wheel from behind, around the back ridge of the lock (if you know what i mean). I have heard that you can weld two semi-circular plates to the back of the device to prevent this (and, in turn, make oversizing of the lock relative to the steering wheel broadly irrelevant). Do you know of any workshops who can do this to a good standard?
ratty
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I don't know of anyone in your neck of the woods (i'm in somerset). If the lock is on as tight as possible but just loose enough that it will still rotate freely it should be fine.
Right.
Just added a 'X-Defend - Gear' to my arsenal (X-eng High Performance Off-Road Engineering). It now joins a Stoplock Pro and a Clutch Claw.
As there are a few 90's around my way with no security I'm hoping that the thieves look at theirs first!
I know people say that you stop fitting security devices after a while but I've been going strong for a year now and wouldn't forgive myself if it got nicked the one time I didn't bother... It's like wearing a seatbelt. Just doesn't feel right if I don't fit them when parking!
S
Just added a 'X-Defend - Gear' to my arsenal (X-eng High Performance Off-Road Engineering). It now joins a Stoplock Pro and a Clutch Claw.
As there are a few 90's around my way with no security I'm hoping that the thieves look at theirs first!
I know people say that you stop fitting security devices after a while but I've been going strong for a year now and wouldn't forgive myself if it got nicked the one time I didn't bother... It's like wearing a seatbelt. Just doesn't feel right if I don't fit them when parking!
S
Trackers don't really stop thieves, most know where they are located , plus you can get GPS jammers which buy you enough time to strip it for parts.
In my old van I used to run two kill switches, one for the fuel pump and one for the starter motor. The fuel pump was attached to a button on the dash where the heated rear screen should go, was the OEM button but as I didn't have rear windows in my van I didn't have much need for the button. The other was an OEM switch for the roof light which I didn't have (ex-BT van). I'm sure if someone sat down long enough they'd have figured it out as I had two switches for devices my van didn't have. But it meant even with the key, it slowed down any car thief.
Which was for the best since some guys tried to steal my vehicle from a garage forecourt after I'd finished filling up and went to pay. They made a mess of the steering column, but it slowed them down enough that they left empty handed. I didn't actually notice the crime though, someone in the shop asked me if I knew the guys climbing inside my van.
Although a visual deterrent of a disklock or a clutch claw is enough to make someone not even bother breaking into your vehicle, which is always a bonus.
In my old van I used to run two kill switches, one for the fuel pump and one for the starter motor. The fuel pump was attached to a button on the dash where the heated rear screen should go, was the OEM button but as I didn't have rear windows in my van I didn't have much need for the button. The other was an OEM switch for the roof light which I didn't have (ex-BT van). I'm sure if someone sat down long enough they'd have figured it out as I had two switches for devices my van didn't have. But it meant even with the key, it slowed down any car thief.
Which was for the best since some guys tried to steal my vehicle from a garage forecourt after I'd finished filling up and went to pay. They made a mess of the steering column, but it slowed them down enough that they left empty handed. I didn't actually notice the crime though, someone in the shop asked me if I knew the guys climbing inside my van.
Although a visual deterrent of a disklock or a clutch claw is enough to make someone not even bother breaking into your vehicle, which is always a bonus.
