Oil pressure range

steve2286w · May 21, 2020

so number 8 on attached must be the other end of shaft so as long as that shaft not moved then ignition timing would ok , I was thinking some kind of backfire if timing out to cause that pressure builds up in exhaust so a timing check might help starting just in case

steve2286w · May 21, 2020

Have you checked the relief spring free length 87mm and compressed length of 50.55mm at 7.9kg load
Is the plunger free from scoring etc

kyamon · May 21, 2020

steve2286w said:
View attachment 209686

so number 8 on attached must be the other end of shaft so as long as that shaft not moved then ignition timing would ok , I was thinking some kind of backfire if timing out to cause that pressure builds up in exhaust so a timing check might help starting just in case

Yes, but there are some pieces in between that prevent the rod from freely rotating. I think it remains coupled to the driving rod (and thus the main engine timing) at all times, so the distributor must remain aligned.

But yes, I will check the timing before trying to start it up again. I am quite baffled by the exploded muffler - I have had timing issues before (huge ones), and terrible backfiring, and petrol-flooded cylinders which ultimately lead to a two-meter flame shooting out of the exhaust, but what I am having now is bizarre... Maybe it has to do with the higher summer temperatures that make the petrol-vapours in the exhaust explode more easily, I don't know...

Unless the timing is off, I also don't quite understand where the problems with starting up come from. Other than working on the oil pump I changed the oil in the air intake filter, but this should not affect anything. But when I first installed the new bearing shells the engine also had problems - I wonder if this is because the oil pump ran empty? So what I did today after the explosion was to unplug the ignition coil and crank it for a bit, to get the oil going. But then I realised that it was probably no longer a good idea to try and properly start it again, since I now intenionally filled everything with fuel vapours

Will try again tomorrow.

kyamon · May 21, 2020

steve2286w said:
Have you checked the relief spring free length 87mm and compressed length of 50.55mm at 7.9kg load
Is the plunger free from scoring etc

No, I did not measure anything. But yesterday I loosened the relief spring to see if that would help - it made no difference other than that I created an oil leak...

kyamon · May 21, 2020

steve2286w said:
View attachment 209686

so number 8 on attached must be the other end of shaft so as long as that shaft not moved then ignition timing would ok , I was thinking some kind of backfire if timing out to cause that pressure builds up in exhaust so a timing check might help starting just in case

When I pull out the pump, I believe what comes out is up until part and including 212309. The actual drive shaft is shown on the second screen shot, so the distributor and the pump shaft indeed are connected, but because the shaft and gear remains in place, the rotation can not really change when removing the oil pump. Unless for some reason the drive shaft is lower or higher now than it used to be...

Which makes me think... This would be crazy, but maybe the additional hole on the oil pump shaft was made intentionally, such that the whole pump assembly would sit a bit lower. That restricted the oil flow and led to the 50 psi I used to have. When I installed it, I placed it the way it was supposed to be, using the original hole and not having the partially blocked connection with the adaptor housing. This basically doubled the oil flow and led to the higher pressure... I don think this makes any sense, but at least it offers an explanation...

kyamon · May 22, 2020

The timing is fixed - for some reason I had to completely misalign the distributor, make it turn a bit and have a few irregular firings, and then readjust it. But in the end it is nearly at the same position as initially...
Unfortunately the oil pressure is still as high as before.

Will now try to get a mechanical manometer to check (but I am pretty sure the measurement is correct, given that the pressure drops when there is less and insufficient oil in the sump) and then remove the main bearings and recheck them. And then remove the engine from the car and blow out all oil ducts...

steve2286w · May 22, 2020

I was surprised how large the oil holes were luckily mine were very clean
You can see the bearings in my 200di still sat in place with the holes lined up with oil,holes in block
If you are removing the main bearing caps check they’re not wrong way round , they can be swapped in situ without removing crank , welll at least on 200tdi
If the pressure is truly high why I sent relief valve doing it’s job and releasing pressure
Also would there be any issues Caused with high pressure

kyamon · May 23, 2020

steve2286w said:
I was surprised how large the oil holes were luckily mine were very clean
You can see the bearings in my 200di still sat in place with the holes lined up with oil,holes in block
If you are removing the main bearing caps check they’re not wrong way round , they can be swapped in situ without removing crank , welll at least on 200tdi
If the pressure is truly high why I sent relief valve doing it’s job and releasing pressure
Also would there be any issues Caused with high pressure

I tried to make sure that all the caps are in the correct orientation, and I believe I did not make a mistake (but who knows...). They are all in the same orientation (I checked that two days ago when the sump was off again), so they are either all wrong or all correct... The workshop manual does not specify the orientation of the bearing caps, only that they need to remain in sets.

As for the job of the relief valve and the damage - I don't know, and this is one of my big questions... would there actually be a risk to drive it like this and see if things settle down after a few km? I am pretty sure now that the relief valve is functional, and presumably it is set to release at a pressure somewhat below the danger zone. So the fact that id stays closed up to beyond 100 psi would mean that there is no real immediate risk for the engine. Then again, the fact that the pressure is so high clearly shows that something is wrong, and that needs to be fixed.

steve2286w · May 23, 2020

I think the caps only fit one way as they have dowels On them , they are numbered so they Go back in same place but I meant the bearing shells and the half with the holes in sit in the block rather than the removable bearing caps , was it this that you checked? I would check each of these one at a time and also the con rod caps , if they are in wrong then can be changed in situ this would give Peace of mind that correctly fitted If running engine

kyamon · May 23, 2020

steve2286w said:
I think the caps only fit one way as they have dowels On them , they are numbered so they Go back in same place but I meant the bearing shells and the half with the holes in sit in the block rather than the removable bearing caps , was it this that you checked? I would check each of these one at a time and also the con rod caps , if they are in wrong then can be changed in situ this would give Peace of mind that correctly fitted If running engine

Ah, I misunderstood you. I think the bearing caps do not have dowels that completely fix the orientation - on your photo you could basically rotate them such that the numbers would be upside down (but in the same order). This makes a difference because the bearing shells have this folded part at the end, and this can either be in the sense of rotation of the crankshaft, or the other way around. I was referring to that.
The shells themselves are all the same - I do not have different shells for top and bottom, and they all have the hole for oil passage (both on the big ends and the main bearings). I just checked that again on the old bearings, and the two main bearing shells that I did not install are also both the same (there would be a 75% probability that at least one of the left-overs would not have holes if I had installed them randomly - not overwhelming, but somewhat comforting).
So I am nearly 100% certain that the main bearing shells are installed correctly, and I am pretty sure also the big ends are. And given that I slid them in around the crankshaft, and they have these little notches on one end, I don't really see how they could be fitted badly. But this really is the only thing left to check. And given that all my problems started after replacing the bearings, it would make sense to double-check all of them. On the other hand, I saw somewhere that if there really is no oil on the main bearings, the engine pretty much instantly seizes up.

kyamon · May 23, 2020

The attached screenshot from the manual is the only indication I could find that gives a hint about the orientation of the caps. There is a bit of a shadow on the top bearing half shell right where it starts, next to end of the feeler gauge. This might mean that the two shells have to be oriented such that the nips are on the same side (and I believe that is how I installed them, but I will need to double check that).

kyamon · May 23, 2020

Just found a picture I had taken before removing the old bearings - so at least I can tell how the caps need to be installed. I am pretty sure that is how I did install them (and how I did see them two days ago), but as always I can not be 100% sure unless I check again... All of this is getting way too confusing

steve2286w · May 23, 2020

You have probably done it fine , I was a bit paranoid when rebuilding mine making little tick lists to make sure each step was done just in case memory let me down , if the shafts and bearings look fine I think it’s worth running up to temp and see what happens

kyamon · May 23, 2020

steve2286w said:
You have probably done it fine , I was a bit paranoid when rebuilding mine making little tick lists to make sure each step was done just in case memory let me down , if the shafts and bearings look fine I think it’s worth running up to temp and see what happens

I think your ticklist is the better approach than mine - I trusted my memory and my focus while doing things, but of course that only works out when everything is fine in the end... By now I am no longer sure about any of the things I did.
I will have another look at the relief valve and then drop the sump again to check the bearings themselves. If I don't spot anything there (and if it looks like the bearings actually get lubricated) then I do as you say and run it up to temp, hoping for the best.

steve2286w · May 23, 2020

If you’re taking the sump off perhaps pull the pump too, dismantle , Clean It all and Check the hole behind the ball. Bearing is clear of debris fingers crossed

steve2286w · May 23, 2020

I’ve just re read all the posts and I’m not convinced the high pressure is a true actualreading
When you tried a 2nd gauge what exactly did You do

Blackburn · May 23, 2020

Can you post a photo of one of your old main bearing shell sets along side the spare new set of shells from the main you could not fit with engine in situ.

kyamon · May 23, 2020

Blackburn said:
Can you post a photo of one of your old main bearing shell sets along side the spare new set of shells from the main you could not fit with engine in situ.

Photo attached. Does it show what you are wondering about?
I should add that the hole is not actually smaller on the new one, it just looks like that because of the bevel on the old one.
The holes are in exactly the same position - I checked by rolling a new shell of on a piece of paper such that it would leave a mark, and then roll the old on across that mark.
I can not do the same with the big end bearings because all of the new ones are installed.

steve2286w said:
I’ve just re read all the posts and I’m not convinced the high pressure is a true actualreading
When you tried a 2nd gauge what exactly did You do

I purchased a set of sender and gauge and replaced the old sender with the new gauge. I then connected the new gauge to the battery and ground and started the engine. It went straight off scale on the gauge... I used different wires on the new gauge than for the old one.
I agree that the reading is bizarre and unrealistically high, and I really don't see how the relief valve could fail. Maybe I should just run the engine to temp before opening it up again...?

kyamon · May 23, 2020

I remembered another thing today - when I installed the new shells I first covered them in engine oil to give them an initial greasing, but that seemed not to be enough. The first times I cranked the engine the starter seemed to be having troubles and there were very unpleasant sounds from the engine, like metal sliding on metal. But that went away, an then the engine started up.
My guess is that there first had to be oil pumped through the system to get the new shells properly greased up. What this means is that there should be oil flowing through to the main bearings (good), but I also hope that despite the fact that I apparently did not grease them enough they did not take any damage (bad)...

steve2286w · May 23, 2020

kyamon said:
The first times I cranked the engine the starter seemed to be having troubles and there were very unpleasant sounds from the engine, like metal sliding on metal. But that went away, an then the engine started up.

That sounds a bit concerning with the engine upside down and installling one main bearing at a time I nipped up cap bolts and rotated engine engine check for free turning and on the con rod bearings did
nip test on each
Did you still manage to do these tests , oil squirted on should be enough to lube before starting some might crank it over without starting
If shells have holes in bottom and top that’s good
I wonder if your sender needs 10v rather than12 v
http://forums.roversnorth.com/showthread.php?13572-Oil-Pressure-Gauge-Sender-unit

Oil pressure range

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