New Defender with issues that LR are at a loss why.

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JLR produce so many different models, presumably to 'cater for every taste' but the result is an considerable overlap in specifications.
The 'real' LR's started with the S1 & ended with the original Defender, a model designed to be simple & repairable anywhere in the world by a bloke with a Swiss Army knife.
The Defender had been fighting a rearguard action against emission & safety regulations for years, so why did LR even try to replace. The resulting design could never emulate the simplicity of the original so why not just let the poor thing die? Anyone wanting to travel to far-flung regions of the world today have plenty of JLR models to choose from already, so why muddy the waters.
 
I'd be happy to have the new one but it doesn't feel like a proper 4x4 platform to me, and I struggle to weigh up why you would go for one over say a Discovery which is around the same price or cheaper
 
A new 110 came to the island beginning of October but after not seeing it for 10 days I asked the owner what they had done with it this morning. Apparently it’s suffered “catastrophic electrical failure”. And the family that bought it just happen to be the Wilks family :rolleyes:
 
Def90man said:
A new 110 came to the island beginning of October but after not seeing it for 10 days I asked the owner what they had done with it this morning. Apparently it’s suffered “catastrophic electrical failure”. And the family that bought it just happen to be the Wilks family :rolleyes:
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Hope they weren't fitting a winch!
But joking aside, this is so frustrating. I'll bet its not what we would recognise as "electrical failure". There won't be burned wires or bad connections that can be found and fixed. There will software code that's wrong and my bet is still that JLR either do not have full access to the source code, or the modules were tested individually and there was not full end to end testing. I'm pretty sure that there are now faults on these vehicles that are not showing in the diagnostics and are only emerging once its all connected and used in a particular way.
 
rob1miles said:
Hope they weren't fitting a winch!
But joking aside, this is so frustrating. I'll bet its not what we would recognise as "electrical failure". There won't be burned wires or bad connections that can be found and fixed. There will software code that's wrong and my bet is still that JLR either do not have full access to the source code, or the modules were tested individually and there was not full end to end testing. I'm pretty sure that there are now faults on these vehicles that are not showing in the diagnostics and are only emerging once its all connected and used in a particular way.
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No I don’t imagine they would have been getting a winch fitted as they aren’t into off-roading. I will ask next time I see them what happened but I’m assuming it just shut down
 
rob1miles said:
Hope they weren't fitting a winch!
But joking aside, this is so frustrating. I'll bet its not what we would recognise as "electrical failure". There won't be burned wires or bad connections that can be found and fixed. There will software code that's wrong and my bet is still that JLR either do not have full access to the source code, or the modules were tested individually and there was not full end to end testing. I'm pretty sure that there are now faults on these vehicles that are not showing in the diagnostics and are only emerging once its all connected and used in a particular way.
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Are you suggesting lr never did any road testing of their own?
 
No, I'm sure they did loads of testing. Did they do enough "end to end" testing? The answer to that is in the breakdowns, its not an opinion. If there are no unexpected failures or every failure is associated with a unique fault code and fixed then the answer is "yes". If it is not then the answer is "no". The answer to your question is therefore not in my gift, it is in the thread above.
 
rob1miles said:
No, I'm sure they did loads of testing. Did they do enough "end to end" testing? The answer to that is in the breakdowns, its not an opinion. If there are no unexpected failures or every failure is associated with a unique fault code and fixed then the answer is "yes". If it is not then the answer is "no". The answer to your question is therefore not in my gift, it is in the thread above.
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Condemning lr online is far too easy. Most of it is opinion as opposed to fact.

A vehicle like all other products has a mean time before failure. It is a surprise to peeps that one can fail. When buying one you get a warranty that the manufacturer provides in order to give you the faith that they will help fix it if it goes wrong, during the warranty period. Online there's loads of video's condemning lr. Peeps only ever moan about them because it's far too easy to do. I've seen loads of new tratters and none of them have been broken down on the side of the road. We have to give them some credit.

edited: bit too harsh
 
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Hippo said:
Condemning lr online is far too easy. Most of it is opinion as opposed to fact.

A vehicle like all other products has a mean time before failure. It is a surprise to peeps that one can fail. When buying one you get a warranty that the manufacturer provides in order to give you the faith that they will help fix it if it goes wrong, during the warranty period. Online there's loads of video's condemning lr. Peeps only ever moan about them because it's far too easy to do. I've seen loads of new tratters and none of them have been broken down on the side of the road. We have to give them some credit.

edited: bit too harsh
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The most unreliable cars (What Car 2020) in that category are ALL JLR products- Range Rover Sport, Discovery, Velar, Range Rover
The data is still coming in on the Defender but at this point it looks like more of the same, so I think the cynical view people are taking is understandable.
It is down to the new vehicle to prove us wrong over the next 5 years, but if I was a betting man JLR will not suddenly leap from 74% reliability to the 95% reliability of some of its peers especially as it's a new car design, new factory etc
 
I watch the youtube crowd in the states who had the issue(s) with the new defender(s). I see their latest 'new' defender is throwing spurious faults after some snow based mild off-roading.
Far too much electronics for me, I'll keep my £45k (if I had it!)
 
I want it to work but there are some issues: Its one thing for a complex new car to have some early faults, but the title of this thread is key "..JLR at a loss why". We can forgive a few early life failures - electronics with Chinese components, but the diagnostics and techs should flag it and swap the module/connector/sensor but that's not what's happening. Secondly this is very complex car designed to be driven well into the back of beyond. It absolutely must not be "temperamental" or throw faults that cannot be diagnosed. What would sell the new Defender to me is a "low tech" option stripped of as much of the electronics as possible - with of course a suitable price reduction. I would happily live with the lack of gizmos, screens and even a sacrifice of some power. I appreciate the emissions will take some tech and there has to be an engine ecu, but hard wired please or open source code and no updates. If I need to do a reset I want to be able to do that where I am, not after recovery to a wifi hot spot that could be 500 miles away in much of the world. If they made a "low / no tech" option I would bet on it having higher residual value too.
 
JimS said:
The most unreliable cars (What Car 2020) in that category are ALL JLR products- Range Rover Sport, Discovery, Velar, Range Rover
The data is still coming in on the Defender but at this point it looks like more of the same, so I think the cynical view people are taking is understandable.
It is down to the new vehicle to prove us wrong over the next 5 years, but if I was a betting man JLR will not suddenly leap from 74% reliability to the 95% reliability of some of its peers especially as it's a new car design, new factory etc
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Over the years I looked at surveys and took them seriously until I realised there isn't a fair share of each vehicle being entered. Also peeps with faults are more likely to enter if they're annoyed. For eggsample we have a lot of JLR lease cars at work. Managers and sales peeps mainly. I always ask about reliability and the ones with no problems don't know JLR to be unreliable and don't seem interested entering theirs in surveys. I've entered vehicles in them myself. If there was a survey of say 10,000 of each vehicle picked randomly from those made that year... I wonder how JLR would get on.
 
rob1miles said:
I want it to work but there are some issues: Its one thing for a complex new car to have some early faults, but the title of this thread is key "..JLR at a loss why". We can forgive a few early life failures - electronics with Chinese components, but the diagnostics and techs should flag it and swap the module/connector/sensor but that's not what's happening. Secondly this is very complex car designed to be driven well into the back of beyond. It absolutely must not be "temperamental" or throw faults that cannot be diagnosed. What would sell the new Defender to me is a "low tech" option stripped of as much of the electronics as possible - with of course a suitable price reduction. I would happily live with the lack of gizmos, screens and even a sacrifice of some power. I appreciate the emissions will take some tech and there has to be an engine ecu, but hard wired please or open source code and no updates. If I need to do a reset I want to be able to do that where I am, not after recovery to a wifi hot spot that could be 500 miles away in much of the world. If they made a "low / no tech" option I would bet on it having higher residual value too.
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One thing they could have done is built diagnostic's into the dash display to assist repair. Not just fault codes but more of an idea what's wrong. That would help when broke'd down in the sticks.

I have to admit I was surprised at the spec and cost of the entry models. Never thought they would do that but they have done. I guess they feel they have answered the market need of new vehicle buyers. I think it will sell but the pressure on new car emissions and the higher first year road tax is a killer for a lot of big/eggspensive vehicles. It's why my employer has taken most of JLR's products oft the future company car lease scheme. They were highly popular a few years ago but cost and emissions hammer the pocket of the leaser and we want to be a greener company.
 
potus said:
I watch the youtube crowd in the states who had the issue(s) with the new defender(s). I see their latest 'new' defender is throwing spurious faults after some snow based mild off-roading.
Far too much electronics for me, I'll keep my £45k (if I had it!)
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That money is best spent on a FL2 or FL1 ;)
 
Hippo said:
Over the years I looked at surveys and took them seriously until I realised there isn't a fair share of each vehicle being entered. Also peeps with faults are more likely to enter if they're annoyed. For eggsample we have a lot of JLR lease cars at work. Managers and sales peeps mainly. I always ask about reliability and the ones with no problems don't know JLR to be unreliable and don't seem interested entering theirs in surveys. I've entered vehicles in them myself. If there was a survey of say 10,000 of each vehicle picked randomly from those made that year... I wonder how JLR would get on.
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Good points. These surveys are hardly based on good statistical science. It is also well known that people who have an axe to grind are much more likely to complain somewhere than those who are satisfied. When was the last time JLR had a safety recall (other than for the airbag issue which was not their fault)? Plenty of US manufacturers are having safety recalls from time to time.

It has occurred to me that when JLR brings out a new model the first couple years seem to have the most problems. Just think of the early P38s or L322s. Once you get a few years of production they seem sorted out. I do think the new Defender has some interesting and potentially useful technology like "low traction start", wade sensing and multiple cameras. Not to forget a lot of enhanced safety features. I look forward to see more offroad videos on YouTube.
 
Hippo said:
That money is best spent on a FL2 or FL1 ;)
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You are probably spot on for most peep's need's when you say that. Currently a very good nick F2 can be had for the same price or probably less, than a Defender which will undoubtedly be pile of rust and rot under the big wheels and shiny paint.
 
potus said:
You are probably spot on for most peep's need's when you say that. Currently a very good nick F2 can be had for the same price or probably less, than a Defender which will undoubtedly be pile of rust and rot under the big wheels and shiny paint.
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But but but! I’ll say one word!

Image man! Image :rolleyes:
 
The Disco Sport forum is an interesting read. A lot of ex FL2 owners on there who had to make the move as they hire/lease new vehicles repeatedly as company cars or their own motor. Never before have i seen a vehicle dedicated forum that hates the vehicle they own, so much. They like to list the reasons for failure and rejection in their signatures anorl. Its as if they enjoy it.

I've seen lots of new tratters on the road. None broke'd down so far. Not one of them with mud on it yet. Everyone knows they're no good because of the merkin video's on this fred and the hill billy's at powerfuluk slagged it oft anorl. Must be the way of the modern owner to want to advertise to everyone they've bought a heap. They can't all be like that.

The modern tratterer is a different animal to the original. No longer do they want to scrape ice oft the inside of the windscreen while sat on a wet seat because the roof leaks. They want a bit of comfort rather than old park benches for seats and having to drive with the window down for arm space. The world has changed and so has the tratter. Give it some time to see how it really gets on.
 
Hippo said:
The Disco Sport forum is an interesting read. A lot of ex FL2 owners on there who had to make the move as they hire/lease new vehicles repeatedly as company cars or their own motor. Never before have i seen a vehicle dedicated forum that hates the vehicle they own, so much. They like to list the reasons for failure and rejection in their signatures anorl. Its as if they enjoy it.

I've seen lots of new tratters on the road. None broke'd down so far. Not one of them with mud on it yet. Everyone knows they're no good because of the merkin video's on this fred and the hill billy's at powerfuluk slagged it oft anorl. Must be the way of the modern owner to want to advertise to everyone they've bought a heap. They can't all be like that.

The modern tratterer is a different animal to the original. No longer do they want to scrape ice oft the inside of the windscreen while sat on a wet seat because the roof leaks. They want a bit of comfort rather than old park benches for seats and having to drive with the window down for arm space. The world has changed and so has the tratter. Give it some time to see how it really gets on.
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Not all merkins have been knocking it's reliability. This over enthusiastic yank has just driven across murica in one, on very demanding freeways averaging 78mph, and it was just the sunroof that broke.

He says the old Defender is a disaster and it is much better at absolutely everything....
 
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