New Defender with issues that LR are at a loss why.

Hippo said:

Anything is possible. But spoof theories on the web about a massive company like jlr contracting out their software dev and not having knowledge or access to the code? Do you really think jlr is that silly?

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Well I don't know how JLR procure their software, so yes it's possible.
I work for a bigger company that has VERY vigorous software testing, even then it's not uncommon for "features" to be found when in use by the customer.

The more complex the system the more features you'll find. Remind me how many ECUs the new defender has....

I'm pretty sure this was a serious point raised by probably most of the people on this forum when it was released.

I haven't bothered reading up on the grenadier since I heard they were moving production to France but I wonder if they'll try and take advantage of this.

gymmaniac said:

Well I don't know how JLR procure their software, so yes it's possible.
I work for a bigger company that has VERY vigorous software testing, even then it's not uncommon for "features" to be found when in use by the customer.

The more complex the system the more features you'll find. Remind me how many ECUs the new defender has....

I'm pretty sure this was a serious point raised by probably most of the people on this forum when it was released.

I haven't bothered reading up on the grenadier since I heard they were moving production to France but I wonder if they'll try and take advantage of this.

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Bug finding is normal. It happens. Ideally it shouldn't but it depends on how much testing was done and if the tester was honest. In the 90's we had the software 'life cycle' created which meant yer got updates at a later date to solve bugs. It became popular with Windows but peeps now worry too much about cars with software. They seem to think they need updates anorl. Its not like fixing vulnerabilities found in windows to stop viruses/hackers.

Most of the crap peeps online talk about car ecu's is crap. They don't realise the vaste majority are micro controllers and not computers. They don't have a clue about embedded stuff and the difference between software and firmware. They would count a casio digital watch as a computer.

The figure of 85 computers gets mentioned a lot on the new tratter. But i wonder how many of them actually are? I think most will be counting the silly ones like wiper control, one touch up/down drivers window, memory seats, wiper delay, mood lighting control... But the fear factor of not being able to hit it with a hammer to fix it will always grab headlines.

In the early 90's abs and traction control were on high spec cars only. Thought to be some form of magic. All cars have them now and diyer's have adapted. Never before have we had so many diagnostic devices available and an agreed standard they communicate on.

Electronics and software control doesn't worry me. I mess about with it on my hippo. Vid's on youtube. I can appreciate why some are fearful of it. Garages and forums can help with it.

I'm not convinced the grenaider will sell well. Even devolping countries want betterer vehicles with emission control these days. To have a future it will need a hybrid and electric only option. Not seen anything about that.

Interesting vidoe, and rightly horrified at £10 each for wheel nuts.

10 sovs each may seem high but he's bought himself an eggspensive vehicle from a premium manufacturer, full of eggspensive parts. I don't fink i would trust ebay for wheel nuts unless it was a known reputable commercial seller of parts.

That's the crux of it, now you've spent £75000 for a Defender how can you say no to £200 for wheel nuts? You've just become a cash cow to be milked for years to come.

UPDATE:

Cheers

This is fast becoming a 'should have bought a freelander' fred

Hippo said:

This is fast becoming a 'should have bought a freelander' fred

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They have had 2 x Discos , not sure why they should downgrade.

Cheers

neilly said:

They have had 2 x Discos , not sure why they should downgrade.

Cheers

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Because they want a working vehicle

But the Discos did work and the Defender doesn't, even the replacement Defender doesn't - have you watched the video - dealer cuts through harness that is "irreplaceable" and fails to deliver the car.

Just thinking about this latest video. OK its the dealer who's messed up not JLR, BUT, how do you cut a harness so badly that it cannot be repaired and when fitting a winch? I don't get it. Surely the winch does not have that many connections, and its the JLR winch so it must come with a plug that fits onto a ready made connector on the harness as its a JLR accessory. I don't believe the bespoke Defender 2020 winch is fitted using scotch-locs? I hope not!
I'm struggling to understand this.

Wow. I would be slacking off that dealership completely. They are either poor trained and clueless or don’t give a ****.
Completely not fit for purpose. I would reject the vehicle for sure!

There's a number of things missing from his video's. How LR support their dealers and whats wrong with his car. The background behind all of this is they produce video's which they put on the web. They have just under 1 million subscribers and have a car with faults which they have openly told every one about, along with their dissatisfaction. Early on the car reported faults which they advertised online. Dealer wasn't able to fix and LR can't as well, we some of the statements made.

Main dealers have options to put in a technical request for help from LR. They also have support from LR when new products come out in order to get them up to speed on new technology. Problem is on this occasion they can't resolve the issue with the engine so the engine needs replaced. They're not keen on this and it will take time to order and supply and engine. All of this is being echoed to the world via youtube. Their comments about the dealer and LR, don't paint the situation in good light. Later on when they have more problems over the camera's and winch fitting it's no surprise LR and the dealer limit the information they give them.

LR commit to repairing faults that develop during the warranty period, if it's a reasonable claim under the warranty. If there's problems they can't solve then they change the vehicle. There's also a backup policy of replacing cars if they have been worked on for a certain amount of time and not fixed. In the uk it's 20 days. That's working on it for 20 days and doesn't include waiting time at the dealer for time slots and parts. This is to protect the buyer from endless problems with the same car. The lemon law in merka is separate to all of this, but essentially gives the buyer and option to reject the car if faulty.

It's disappointing to see these faults happen but the dealer is working on it with LR in the background. The way they comment on the story and put up video's of the car going back to the dealer is bad publicity for LR. They won't like that. The video creaters are doing this to capture views and lever against the situation. From the outside it looks like the dealer/LR have taken reasonable steps to resolve the problem. Offered to supply a replacement anorl. It's unfortunate they don't have another the same (or similar) spec available. The dealer would normally lend you another LR product while you were waiting with warranty repair problems.

The prolonged test drive and winch problems don't make sense. I guess they drove it for some time in order to make sure there were no faults. Perhaps to reduce the chance of more video's listing faults. There are sometimes parts they can't get hold of when the design is new, even though it's in production. Some parts are not initially available via the parts network. I wonder if there is more damage or a bigger problem but they don't want to tell the owner the full story due to all the bad press it's generating. It too easy for them to create another video slagging the dealer and LR oft so I think they're being cautious in what they tell them. Either way they have a warranty and it's being repaired/replaced under that warranty. I can't imagine a situation where LR has never fitted a winch to one of these new tratters before fur testing. Some of the press vehicles had them.

It's probably the first time this particular dealer has fitted a winch to the new defender.
It would be great to see these fitting instructions to get an idea of how it went so badly wrong.

adrian hogg said:

Personally I feel this is a sad reflection on the skill level of the dealer network.

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Sadly all walks of the motor trade, not enough training, job to diverse so people can never get really good at one discipline, its all multi tasking jack of all trades screw ups, cluless managers who are managers in name only, foremen who want to be mates rather than run the place, lack of parts/consumables/experience, massive overheads etc
Penny to a pound other disciplines are just the same.

I do feel there's more to this story but the buyers are generally postive about LR products, more so than most in the US and they wanted to vehicle to do an extended trip that was likely (prior to all this) to be positive about LR and the Defender. They have kept their cool, well rather more than I would have but there's no question its a mess. There are people with new Defenders posting how great their's is and that the vehicles should not be judged by a few high profile failures, but what we don't know is how many new owners are stuck in warrenty repairs and don't want to publicise that? This is a very complex techy vehicle and if the dealer network is not ready we will see more problems like this.
We may never know what went wrong with the engine - "deep inside". In the "old days" one would take the head and sump off and have a look, now its seems that if it cannot be diagnosed from the software its time to give up. That's not a good sign. I do hope "deep inside" is not JLR speak for "broken crank"? All the "deep inside" bits are mechnical, my hunch is still that its a software error but I doubt we will ever know unless more start having the same fault.

Found winch install video

only just seen this fred.. in the articul they call it a utility vee-hikul

hate to sea the posh vershun

lynall said:

Sadly all walks of the motor trade, not enough training, job to diverse so people can never get really good at one discipline, its all multi tasking jack of all trades screw ups, cluless managers who are managers in name only, foremen who want to be mates rather than run the place, lack of parts/consumables/experience, massive overheads etc
Penny to a pound other disciplines are just the same.

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That's the exact reason I left the automotive industry, main dealer network.
Not enough skilled mechanics in the service bays, with only fitters being trained, and don't get me started on the management, who didn't have a clue on what end of a spanner to use.

I like the video on stripping car to fit winch, it just goes to show why you should not bother fitting a winch to a town car.