Max engine size for LR Freelander 1

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Tony Reeves said:
You want one of these...
http://www.landrover-center.com/news/Freelander-L314/14314
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There was a supercharger kit available for the MGR KV6 that could be made to fit the Freelander. However the crank has been known to fail on supercharged units. I would put that down to crank nose loadings, due to the charger.

The Mad Hat Man said:
Can't see why - it's the same diff & gearbox - except the 220 comes with the option of a lsd.
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That's not entirely accurate MHM. The box fitted to the Freelander is a modified 1.8 Rover K series PG1 box. It is available in standard 120Ftlb (1.8) and 177Ftlb (L series) ratings.
The box that fits the M/T series bell, won't take the Freelander's IRD. The Freelander's front diff is also in the IRD. There's no diff in the gearbox, only a gear to drive the IRD.
 
Nodge68 said:
There was a supercharger kit available for the MGR KV6 that could be made to fit the Freelander. However the crank has been known to fail on supercharged units. I would put that down to crank nose loadings, due to the charger.



That's not entirely accurate MHM. The box fitted to the Freelander is a modified 1.8 Rover K series PG1 box. It is available in standard 120Ftlb (1.8) and 177Ftlb (L series) ratings.
The box that fits the M/T series bell, won't take the Freelander's IRD. The Freelander's front diff is also in the IRD. There's no diff in the gearbox, only a gear to drive the IRD.
Click to expand...
I like the way that the production 220 coupe turbo with PG1 was rated at 174Ftlb out of the factory - that is a knats off the quoted constant max of the 'U' PG1 box.
Because these (220T coupe) have been pushed way beyond the 174 Is also one of the reasons why I feel confident that my L series mods will be perfectly fine at around 230 - 250 Ftlbs torque.. - and gear boxes are cheap lol :)
I have no real qualms about the IRD I must confess. Just needs the crownwheel support bearings checking from time to time ...:rolleyes:
 
Nodge68 said:
That's not entirely accurate MHM. The box fitted to the Freelander is a modified 1.8 Rover K series PG1 box. It is available in standard 120Ftlb (1.8) and 177Ftlb (L series) ratings.
The box that fits the M/T series bell, won't take the Freelander's IRD. The Freelander's front diff is also in the IRD. There's no diff in the gearbox, only a gear to drive the IRD.
Click to expand...

My understanding was that the 220 fits the L series bell housing
 
Hi MTH, we were discussing this on a fred the other day - the freelander L series does not use the normal L series bellhousing - it uses a K series pattern (specific to the freelander)-There is an end plate for the L series that fits the M/T series box - on that fred Nodge pointed out that the freelander box on the K and L are both K bell fitting, not M/T, You could fit the T and Box, but then the box would not adapt to the IRD. I do not beleive there is a way to convert the freelander K pattern - L series U box (that sounds complex :)) to the T unit though without some special adaptor - even then I don';t know about clearances on the block area for the IRD... would probably be a bit of a nightmare
Joe
 
The question "Max engine size for FL1" is more about the torque limits of the various transmission components.

As Nodge says, the diesel variant uses an upgraded gearbox (it can be identified by the "U" suffix on the gearbox code) with a realistic reliable upper torque limit of 177lb.ft.

The FL1 is a 1.5 tonne vehicle - you could probably push a bit more torque through the gearbox, but don't expect 200,000 mile reliability.

I don't know the torque rating of the IRD, but I believe that the VCU should be okay. As the transmission is only as strong as its weakest point, you'd need to know the rating of the rear diffs, drive shafts, CV joints etc.

Or you stuff in something really powerful and torquey, and wait to see what breaks first.

The latter is the general approach applied by most individuals and small tuning companies. ;) Nothing wrong with that, so long as you go into the process with your eyes wide open :)
 
The original torque capacity of the PG1 box was set by Rover many years before the Freelander was released. This was in the days of the Rover 800 Vitesse Turbo. The boost on those engines was artificially limited to keep torque under 175 Ftlb. The reasons behind this, was to limit warranty claims on gearbox failures.

Yes the gearbox will take more torque but it will have a shorter life.

Don't forget that an AWD vehicle is harder on the gearbox. The reason for this is tyre grip. A FWD will simply spin its tyres, burning off excess torque as tyre smoke. A kind of safety valve if you like.
An AWD will have much more grip, which means a less tyre spinning. Less tyre spin, means more torque through the box.

The IRD is very strong, so as long as the bearings are ok and the oil changed frequently, it should be able to cope ok.
The rear diff can be similarly treated, to prolong its life.
 
Nodge68 said:
The original torque capacity of the PG1 box was set by Rover many years before the Freelander was released. This was in the days of the Rover 800 Vitesse Turbo. The boost on those engines was artificially limited to keep torque under 175 Ftlb. The reasons behind this, was to limit warranty claims on gearbox failures.

Yes the gearbox will take more torque but it will have a shorter life.

Don't forget that an AWD vehicle is harder on the gearbox. The reason for this is tyre grip. A FWD will simply spin its tyres, burning off excess torque as tyre smoke. A kind of safety valve if you like.
An AWD will have much more grip, which means a less tyre spinning. Less tyre spin, means more torque through the box.

The IRD is very strong, so as long as the bearings are ok and the oil changed frequently, it should be able to cope ok.
The rear diff can be similarly treated, to prolong its life.
Click to expand...
Hi Nodge, from the amount of research I have done ref the PG1, the 'weakest' point or common issue with increased torque appears to be in the area of the differential / diff support bearings.
I would have thought that this area was not much of an issue on the freelander as a lot of the 'standard diff / dual cv load etc is removed - ok - transferred.
I would also have thought that the diff (ok, on the freelander - 'output reduction drive') bearings could be up-rated if needed. Probably not.. ?
I agree re the method of torque transfer being harder on components, however, a lot of the issues with turbo engines in road cars is that they are used in a far 'sportier' way with hammering gear changes and massive & rapid load / torque changes. I would say that imho this certainly does a far better job at destroying boxes. :(
I have not heard of many issues with freelander boxes I must confess (PG1 that is.... )
What have been your findings / observations ?
Joe
 
Joe_H said:
Hi Nodge, from the amount of research I have done ref the PG1, the 'weakest' point or common issue with increased torque appears to be in the area of the differential / diff support bearings.
I would have thought that this area was not much of an issue on the freelander as a lot of the 'standard diff / dual cv load etc is removed - ok - transferred.
I would also have thought that the diff (ok, on the freelander - 'output reduction drive') bearings could be up-rated if needed. Probably not.. ?
I agree re the method of torque transfer being harder on components, however, a lot of the issues with turbo engines in road cars is that they are used in a far 'sportier' way with hammering gear changes and massive & rapid load / torque changes. I would say that imho this certainly does a far better job at destroying boxes. :(
I have not heard of many issues with freelander boxes I must confess (PG1 that is.... )
What have been your findings / observations ?
Joe
Click to expand...

I've done a lot of research, measuring and stripping of the PG1 over the years. The 1.8 box on the normal Rover doesn't generally suffer bearing issues at all. Even when subjected to rough abuse in the RWD MGF, bearing failure is rare. They do suffer selector fork wear, detent spring breakage and locking bar damage. This is probably down to driver error on clutch timing.
The U PG1 on the whole is very robust and will take well in excess of its quoted maximum torque. The input shaft bearings can go noisy with age, which I suspect is a heat transfer issue from the clutch.
The diff carrier bearings can also disintegrate over time, sometimes catastrophically. They use plastic ball cages for some unknown reason.
The KV6 PG1 doesn't suffer to bad at all. It is the only PG1 equipped vehicle that has a fixed support shaft on the RH drive shaft. This not only gives the ZS180 equal length drive shafts, but also takes drive shaft loadings off the RH diff carrier bearing. RH drive shaft loadings are taken by a dedicated support bearing.
I've looked into thoroughly into all PG1 versions and I am of the opinion, that it should be possible to make a Rover car PG1, fit a Freelander IRD. I'm sure most of the lugs are there. Just some machining would be needed, to make something work.
It's not something I need however so I've no plans to try.
 
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Nodge68 said:
The KV6 PG1 doesn't suffer to bad at all. It is the only PG1 equipped vehicle that has a fixed support shaft on the RH drive shaft. This not only gives the ZS180 equal length drive shafts, but also takes drive shaft loadings off the RH diff carrier bearing. RH drive shaft loadings are taken by a dedicated support bearing.
Click to expand...

Excellent info thanks -regarding the above - actually there is another PG1 that has a fixed RH support shaft (as such) - the Freelander ;)
In this case a humongous shaft on equally humongous bearings :)

I also noted the non metal caged units in the diff carrier..:confused: .. I am sure they can be replaced with a metal caged unit. I did see some references on 'rovertech' to this. Bearing technology has also moved on in the last 20 years and I am sure a better option is available.
I am still on the lookout for a good L series U box.. my 'man' in the UK is on the case :cool:
Would be nice to have the spare so I can haul it apart and give it a birthday. It can then sit alongside my 2 good IRD's, fuel pump and abs mods.
Once it was sorted and any parts replaced as needed, it could be dropped in.
I am STILL waiting for the TD4 bl%&dy brake servo :rolleyes::rolleyes: - cannot really go any further with the L series mods until the brakes are upgraded. Also decided on the Vents and calipers form the later - will stick with 15" wheels though and have some spaces turned from scratch or from the old discs.
 
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