Jeep Liberty : Reliability, Safety, IFS ??

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Paul Thomas

Guest
I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.

Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
safety features?


Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
has this problem )


I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
reliability?

Thank you all for your help,

Paul Thomas
 
> Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
vulnerable to tip over. <

Any vehicle with a high center of gravity is prone to "tip over" to one
degree or another. However, much of this rollover carping is from greens who
hope people won't buy SUVs and thus won't go off road. They want to close
all off road trails so they can have all public land to themselves.

>How is jeep's record on this? <

Jeeps are actually better than most in this regard, but again, it depends on
the driver.

> Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? <

Consumer Reports rates it average, which is rather difficult to define but
probably good.

> I am going to use it only to commute to and from work and may be some
camping. Strictly no rock climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. <

Good thing, because it's not a very capable rig off-road. Strictly for
forest trails, etc. Its IFS design inhibits wheel travel and thus hobbles
it. Indeed, among veteran Jeepers it's not even considered a "Jeep".

> If you give Honda a reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability
rating of 4 how would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). <

Tough on Ford, wouldn't you say? (They actually do much better than you
think.)

This is an intangible, it's going to depend upon how you drive & maintain
it, but I would not put it in the Honda category, in fact I wouldn't put the
newer Hondas in the Honda category!

> Does the parts start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear
Nissan Xterra has this problem )>

Never heard this about the Xterra, quite the contrary. Again, it's too new
to know how it will hold up long term.

> I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front suspension
and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and reliability? <

IFS suspensions are designed to improve on-highway ride, solid axles are
better off road. Solid rear axles can theoretically handle greater loads and
allow more wheel travel in rough terrain.

On a "Jeep" and independent suspension is a travesty.

Many of us have no idea what DC was thinking with the Liberty, other than to
have a "cute ute" to sell. It's got less interior room than the old
Cherokee, is less competent off road and even looks kind of stupid. If they
roll out more models similar to the Liberty Jeep stands to fall flat on its
face. It's really intended to be a "chick-mobile", which is not where
anything called a "Jeep" belongs.



 


Jerry McGeorge wrote:

> IFS suspensions are designed to improve on-highway ride, solid axles are
> better off road. Solid rear axles can theoretically handle greater loads and
> allow more wheel travel in rough terrain.

I can accept the "greater loads" part of your comments, but I don't agree with
(or at least understand) the part about "greater travel." I know this is often
claimed, but the only web site that made the case was so full of holes as to be
useless. Maybe you can explain it to me. I believe that a properly designed IRS
can have more ground clearance that a solid axle design. Unfortunately
retrofitting such a system is difficult and expensive. In the context of the
original question, why do you think the Liberties IFS is worse than the
Cherokee's beam axle as long as both remain unmodified?

> On a "Jeep" and independent suspension is a travesty.
>
> Many of us have no idea what DC was thinking with the Liberty, other than to
> have a "cute ute" to sell. It's got less interior room than the old
> Cherokee, is less competent off road and even looks kind of stupid. If they
> roll out more models similar to the Liberty Jeep stands to fall flat on its
> face. It's really intended to be a "chick-mobile", which is not where
> anything called a "Jeep" belongs.

Ever see a Jeepster?

Ed

 
Paul

Try this site for vehicle bodywork integrity..
http://www.crashtest.com/jeep/ie.htm

Any vehicle if driven either on or past its limits will be unsafe.. one
would assume that the differences in general handling between a Ferrari
Modena 360 and an SUV would be fairly obvious, yet some still choose to
drive their SUV in a manner more befitting the Ferrari..

Vehicle reliability is down to quality of parts and regular maintenance..
glancing through user reviews will often leave you wondering whether or not
to make a particular purchase.. some seem to have bad luck by the truckload,
and others do not.. there is an element of luck involved, quality control
not always being the highest priority at all times during initial
construction..

The Jeep Liberty may not be all that a 'real' Jeep should be, but if you
like the look of it, and feel that it would service you well, then go ahead
and purchase one.. and remember that there is nothing in the 'rule book'
that enforces all Jeep drivers to be off-roaders.. rock crawling and
following Hannibal's original route across the Alps is not for everybody..

--
History is only the past if we choose to do nothing about it..

"Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
>
> Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> safety features?
>
>
> Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> has this problem )
>
>
> I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> reliability?
>
> Thank you all for your help,
>
> Paul Thomas


 
> I can accept the "greater loads" part of your comments, but I don't agree
with (or at least understand) the part about "greater travel." I know this
is often claimed, but the only web site that made the case was so full of
holes as to be useless. Maybe you can explain it to me. I believe that a
properly designed IRS can have more ground clearance that a solid axle
design. Unfortunately retrofitting such a system is difficult and expensive.
In the context of the original question, why do you think the Liberties IFS
is worse than the Cherokee's beam axle as long as both remain unmodified?

It's a simple matter of leverage: The solid axle pivots on the opposite side
of the vehicle, allowing a greater range of motion. An independent system
typically has it's fulcrum point just a few inches from the hub, thus range
of travel is inhibited. This is why the independently sprung Hummer HI has
its suspension a-arms mounted nearly at the centerline of the frame.

Yes, you can add adapters to an independent front suspension to increase
ground clearance (that is, add lift), however wheel travel is the most
important factor of the two and these adapters generally do not increase
range of travel. They just permit adding larger tires.

The Cherokee XJ was a time-tested, durable design, whereas the Liberty seems
to be a concession to complaints of "harsh highway ride". I for one always
though the old Cherokee rode well on the highway and handles extremely well.
The Liberty simply was intended to leverage the Jeep name, not extend its
capabilities.


 

"Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
>
> Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> safety features?
>
>
> Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> has this problem )
>
>
> I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> reliability?
>
> Thank you all for your help,
>
> Paul Thomas

I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have a
few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
reliable.


 


"Dan J.S." wrote:

> "Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> > discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> > is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> > that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
> >
> > Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> > vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> > safety features?
> >
> >
> > Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> > commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> > climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> > reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> > would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> > start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> > has this problem )
> >
> >
> > I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> > suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> > reliability?
> >
> > Thank you all for your help,
> >
> > Paul Thomas
>
> I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have a
> few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
> Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
> reliable.

And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old one
which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.

I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
4Runner.

Ed

 

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "Dan J.S." wrote:
>
> > "Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> > > discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> > > is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> > > that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
> > >
> > > Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> > > vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> > > safety features?
> > >
> > >
> > > Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> > > commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> > > climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> > > reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> > > would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> > > start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> > > has this problem )
> > >
> > >
> > > I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> > > suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> > > reliability?
> > >
> > > Thank you all for your help,
> > >
> > > Paul Thomas
> >
> > I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have
a
> > few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
> > Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
> > reliable.
>
> And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old
one
> which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.
>
> I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
> 4Runner.
>
> Ed
>
Isuzu Trooper.
the new models are goign cheap because they're the last of the model, theres
a new US built design replacing the Jap built ones soon. So don't expect a
good resale price, but if you buy one and hang on to it, they're cheap now.

rhys


 

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "Dan J.S." wrote:
>
> > "Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> > > discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> > > is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> > > that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
> > >
> > > Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> > > vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> > > safety features?
> > >
> > >
> > > Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> > > commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> > > climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> > > reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> > > would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> > > start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> > > has this problem )
> > >
> > >
> > > I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> > > suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> > > reliability?
> > >
> > > Thank you all for your help,
> > >
> > > Paul Thomas
> >
> > I would stay away from any Chrysler products. Liberty is ok, but I have
a
> > few associates that have more than average share of problems with them.
> > Consider a Toyota 4runner. Little more roomy, very comfortable, and very
> > reliable.
>
> And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old
one
> which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.
>
> I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
> 4Runner.
>
> Ed
>

Thats because they sold the most...duh


 


Ted wrote:

> > And very expensive. Hopefully the revised 4Runner is safer than the old
> one
> > which had one of the highest injury loss rating of any SUV sold in the US.
> >
> > I don't thik a person considering a Liberty is really in the market for a
> > 4Runner.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>
> Thats because they sold the most...duh

It doesn't work that way. If it did, the Explorer would have the worst rating.
It doesn't. The injury loss rating is based on the dollar loss per million
registered vehicles attributable to injury and then is normalized so that the
average vehicle has an injury loss rating of 100. The 200-2002 4WD 4Runner has
an injury loss rating of 91 (which is better than the average for all vehicles),
but a 4 Door 4WD Explorer's rating is only 71 (lower is better). The average for
all mid-sized 4WD SUVs is 76.

Even worse is the roll over performance of the 4Runner. A 4DR, 4WD Explorer has
a driver death rating due to rollovers of 26. The 4Runner has a rating of 86.
(the rate is deaths in single-vehicle crashes involving rollover per million
registered vehicle years). I can't see how the press trashed Explorers for
rollovers and ignored the far more dangerous 4Runner. I hope the new 4Runner is
better, but from what I can read, it is little more that a new body sitting on
the same tired old chassis. And in fact it may be worse since they increased the
weight and added a heavier , more powerful engine as an option. It seems to me
that the Japanese SUVs are getting a free ride when it comes to Safety. In every
category of SUV they rank near the bottom of injury rates.

Oh what a feeling.

Ed

 
[email protected] (Paul Thomas) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
OK, I own a 02 Liberty limited, a 99 Wrangler sport and a '49 Willys
pickup.
Also, I help my Mother run 50 head of cattle on a couple of hundred
acres in East Texas. This is my experience:
A locker would be nice. I hate to be on flat, slippery pasture and
cannot move because I am spinning out. We have to ford a creek to get
to the west pasture. The Liberty handles it better than the Wrangler.
I bought the Willys in Dillon, Montana back in 1980 and wife and I
beat the dickins out the the ecology of Beaverhead county in her all
summer long. I learned a few things along the way. Liberty and
Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock, but I prefer
the ifs and the selectrac over the command trac on the Wrangler. We
get tropical downpours, 4 inch and hour, frog strangeling rainstorms.
I would prefer the Liberty, selectrac, and ABS to ending up like this:
http://lnc.grwelch.com/jeep.htm
Liberty will pull 5000 lbs. You can probablly lift a Liberty, I am
not sure, don't plan to.

If you do not plan to pull 5000 lbs and do not plan to lift the thing
then look at the Rangerover Freelander. I think that the Freelander
would be fine for chasing cows through the pasture, doodling bales of
hay with the tumble bug and dragging the occasional dead cow off down
into the woods, and really the only reason we went with the Liberty
was so that I could haul off the wreck of the Wrangler. (Wrangler is
back on the road now, by the way)

Our family has 25000+ on the Liberty with no problems. When the
Wrangler and the Liberty are as old as the Willys I think that the
Liberty will be a lot more trouble than the Wrangler - more electronic
stuff and I really did not want a sun roof; I know there is no way
that thing will last 60 years. Most people do not keep their vehicles
forever like us Jeep people, but then most people do not drive Jeeps.

If you like the Liberty hold out for one with the Selectrac and the
ABS. If it does not have the locking rear differential you will have
to have one put in later. I had U-Haul put in the trailer hitch but
letting the dealer do it would be ok.

> Thank you all for your help,
>
> Paul Thomas
de nada,
 
John Welch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Paul Thomas) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
I learned a few things along the way. Liberty and
> Wrangler are pretty much evenly matched off road - stock,

If you honestly believe that, you haven't really done any serious (SERIOUS!)
offroading with your Wrangler. I kid you not.

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/


 
If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
the CJ a -10.

Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there - most
Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.

Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.




"Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
>
> Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> safety features?
>
>
> Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> has this problem )
>
>
> I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> reliability?
>
> Thank you all for your help,
>
> Paul Thomas


 
Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.

--
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:w1Wvb.993$ZE1.110@fed1read04...
> If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
> the CJ a -10.
>
> Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there -
most
> Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
> exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.
>
> Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.
>
>
>
>
> "Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> > discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> > is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> > that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
> >
> > Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> > vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> > safety features?
> >
> >
> > Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> > commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> > climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> > reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> > would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> > start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> > has this problem )
> >
> >
> > I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> > suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> > reliability?
> >
> > Thank you all for your help,
> >
> > Paul Thomas
>
>


 
On 22 Nov 2003 06:45 PM, Jerry Bransford posted the following:
> Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.

How many miles does your Jeep have on it these days, Jerry? Not to
mention all of the hard wheeling. My brother's '97 TJ is over 100K now
and the only problems he has had with it have all been self-inflicted.

----------------------------------------------------
Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
 
It's up to 128,000 miles now Del, not doing too bad at all for that many
miles either. :) How's that winch doing? My TJ's issues are all
owner-inflicted as well. ;)

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

"Del Rawlins" <del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 22 Nov 2003 06:45 PM, Jerry Bransford posted the following:
> > Heh, I always have to laugh at the trolls.
>
> How many miles does your Jeep have on it these days, Jerry? Not to
> mention all of the hard wheeling. My brother's '97 TJ is over 100K now
> and the only problems he has had with it have all been self-inflicted.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Del Rawlins- del@_kills_spammers_rawlinsbrothers.org
> Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply via email.
> Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
> http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/


 
Pure bullsh*t.

--
Jim
--
98 TJ SE
90 SJ GW
http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/JDJeep98
"You can do any job in the world with the wrong tool if you try hard
enough..."
"4x4" in caps is "$X$"


"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:w1Wvb.993$ZE1.110@fed1read04...
> If a Ford is a 4, then I'd have to say a Jeep would be about a -20. Maybe
> the CJ a -10.
>
> Note I'm note talking about off road capability - no arguments there -
most
> Jeeps do well there. Note I say most Jeeps - the Liberty being the
> exception. Just plain reliability, mechanical, etc, the Jeeps fall apart.
>
> Sorry to you Jeep lovers - just from my and every one I know experience.
>
>
>
>
> "Paul Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am thinking of buying a Jeep Liberty. There had been a lot of
> > discussion about this SUV in the newsgroups. I understand overall it
> > is a pretty good vehicle. There are a couple of things about liberty
> > that I would like to know. Safety and Reliability.
> >
> > Safety : How safe is it? I am new to SUVs and I hear that SUVs are
> > vulnerable to tip over. How is jeep's record on this? How about other
> > safety features?
> >
> >
> > Reliability : How reliable is Liberty? I am going to use it only to
> > commute to and from work and may be some camping. Strictly no rock
> > climbing or extreme off roading of any sort. If you give Honda a
> > reliability rating of 10 and a Ford a reliability rating of 4 how
> > would you rate Liberty? ( Remember no offroading). Does the parts
> > start malfunctioning after a couple of years? (I hear Nissan Xterra
> > has this problem )
> >
> >
> > I am a novice in autos. What is the deal with independent front
> > suspension and solid rear axle? How does it affect comfort and
> > reliability?
> >
> > Thank you all for your help,
> >
> > Paul Thomas
>
>


 
> Pure bullsh*t.<

Indeed, the later model YJs, XJs, and TJs are extraordinarily reliable
vehicles. 200k miles on a moderately maintained Cherokee or YJ is not
unusual at all, and TJs seem to run like a top forever.



 
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andyfreelandy
andyfreelandy
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Am I mad for buying another Disco 4?
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lynall
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