Huge study about safety can be misinterpreted by SUV drivers

  • Thread starter Dianelos Georgoudis
  • Start date
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GIVING PILLS TO CATS AND DOGS MADE EASY

CATS:
1. Pick cat up and cradle it in the crook of your left arm as if holding
baby. Position right forefinger and thumb on either side of cat's mouth
and gently apply pressure to cheeks while holding pill in right hand. As
cat opens mouth pop pill into mouth. Allow cat to close mouth and swallow.

2. Retrieve pill from floor and cat from behind sofa. Cradle cat in left
arm and repeat process.

3. Retrieve cat from bedroom, and throw soggy pill away.

4. Take new pill from foil wrap, cradle cat in left arm -- holding rear
paws tightly with left hand. Force jaws open and push pill to
back of mouth with right forefinger. Hold mouth shut for a count of ten.

5. Retrieve pill from goldfish bowl and cat from top of wardrobe. Call
spouse from garden.

6. Kneel on floor with cat wedged firmly between knees, hold front and
rear paws. Ignore low growls emitted by cat. Get spouse to hold head
firmly with one hand while forcing wooden ruler into mouth. Drop pill
down ruler and rub cat's throat vigorously for 30-40 seconds.

7. Retrieve cat from curtain rail, get another pill from foil wrap. Make
note to buy new ruler and repair curtains. Carefully sweep shattered
figurines and vases from hearth and set to one side for gluing later.

8. Wrap cat in large towel and get spouse to lie on cat with head just
visible from below armpit. Put pill in end of drinking straw, force open
with pencil and blow down drinking straw.

9. Check label to make sure pill not harmful to humans, drink 1 beer to
take taste away. Apply Band-Aid to spouse's forearm and remove blood from
carpet with cold water and soap. Throw pieces of towel in garbage.

10. Retrieve cat from neighbor's shed. Get another pill. Open another
beer. Place cat in cupboard and close door onto neck to leave head
showing. Force mouth open with dessert spoon. Flick pill down throat
with elastic band.

11. Fetch screwdriver from garage and put cupboard door back on hinges.
Drink beer. Fetch bottle of scotch. Pour shot, drink. Apply cold compress
to cheek and check records for date of last tetanus shot. Apply whiskey
compress to cheek to disinfect. Toss back another shot. Throw T-shirt away
and fetch new one from bedroom.

12. Ring fire brigade to retrieve the cat from tree across the
road. Apologize to neighbor who crashed into fence while swerving to
avoid cat. Take last pill from foil wrap.

13. Tie the cat's front paws to rear paws with garden
twine and bind tightly to leg of dining room table, find heavy duty pruning
gloves from shed. Push pill into mouth followed by large piece of fillet
steak. Be rough about it. Hold head vertically and pour 2 pints of water
down throat to wash pill down. Pray vigorously while performing all steps.

14. Consume remainder of Scotch. Get spouse to drive you to the emergency
room, sit quietly while doctor stitches fingers and forearm and removes
pill remnants from right eye. Call furniture shop on way home to order
new table.

15. Arrange for ASPCA to collect mutant cat from hell and ring local pet
shop to see if they have any hamsters left.



DOGS:
1. Wrap pill in bacon.



"z" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greg ([email protected]) wrote:
> Subject: Re: Global Warming - a Liberal Scam?, (was Huge study about
> safety can be misinterpreted by SUV drivers)
>
> >Lloyd Parker wrote:
> >> >>>>>> Yeah, it'd be terrible if everybody were covered and we

> spent less on >health
> >> >>>>>> care, as Europe, Canada, and Japan do, wouldn't it?

> Terrible for >insurance
> >> >>>>>> companies, drug companies, HMOs, etc, that is.
> > >>>>>How would we spend "less on health care" ? Instead of paying for

health
> > >>>>>insurance we would pay *AT LEAST* that much in additional taxes.

>
> Americans are now spending over $5,000 per capita on healthcare, more
> than double what is spent in Canada, or any other country, and that's
> with like 40% of the people not belonging to any health plan. What
> makes you think we would 'spend *AT LEAST* that much in additional
> taxes'?
>
> > >>>> Why is it, then, that every western European nation, plus Canada

and Japan,
> > >>>> spend less per capita on health care than the US yet still cover

everybody?
> > >>>Answer a question with a question. How does your state run health

care
> > >>>system cost less than the current private one?

>
> Because there are no expenses for HMO marketing, competing redundant
> HMO bureaucracies (if you think the government bureaucracy is bad
> you're not familiar with HMOs), huge executive salaries, dividends and
> profits for shareholders, money to cover investment losses (a big
> factor in the current sudden rise in insurance costs, or didn't you
> know that that's what insurance companies and HMOs do with your
> money?); because providers don't have to spend significant chunks of
> their highly expensive time filling out various and sundry varieties
> of reimbursement forms; because there are no random deliberate or
> accidental routine nonpayments of bills that should be paid, requiring
> a repeat of the reimbursement process; because a huge health plan has
> the market muscle to wrestle low charges from providers, who then
> charge correspondingly more for smaller plans and charge the maximum
> for individuals paying out of pocket. (Or did you have no idea the
> discount your health plan, if you have one, gets from the amount you
> see on your hospital bill?)
> Of course, that explains why Medicare gets the lowest rates in the US,
> and is one of the most successful plans in terms of patient
> satisfaction, as well as being the only health plan in the US whose
> members get care that's at or near the top rank of the industrialized
> nations. Ironic, because of course it is, of course, state-run
> healthcare.
>
> > >> Because all the examples we have of state-run health care say it

would.
> > >> Economy of scale, negotiation for lower prices, preventative care

instead of
> > >> waiting until the person becomes sick -- all these and other factors.
> > >
> > >So your answer is we would save money through the reduced quality of

care.
> > >I suggest you gain some experience with how government price controls
> > >have a negative impact on care, at least with regards to how it works
> > >in the USA.
> > >
> > >

> > Again, I refer you to all the data which shows people in Canada and

western
> > Europe are healthier and live longer.

>
> >And naturally this has absolutely nothing to do with lifestyle, food

> choices,
> >relative scarcity of obesity, and regular excercise as part of the

> daily
> >routine. Nope, it must only because of state run health care.

>
> Well, yeah, good to see it's dawning on you.
> The famous JAMA 7/26/2000 paper points out that the US doesn't have
> such bad habits as to put it at the bottom of the barrel for health
> care outcomes; we're the 5th best and 3rd best for smoking for females
> and males, 5th best for alcohol consumption, fifth best in consumption
> of animal fats and third best for cholesterol level, for instance. And
> deaths from unnatural causes, like getting shot or car accidents, are
> not included. So, if we rank at the bottom of healthcare measures of
> quality without ranking at the bottom for lifestyle causes, it's hard
> to escape the implication that we are just not getting the best or
> most appropriate care, regardless of price.
> But enough about me and what I know; what evidence do you have that
> you are getting the best care in the industrialized world, or even
> average care for the industrialized world, other than your deep-seated
> belief that anything else would be just too unthinkable to even
> consider?



 

GIVING PILLS TO CATS AND DOGS MADE EASY

CATS:
1. Pick cat up and cradle it in the crook of your left arm as if holding
baby. Position right forefinger and thumb on either side of cat's mouth
and gently apply pressure to cheeks while holding pill in right hand. As
cat opens mouth pop pill into mouth. Allow cat to close mouth and swallow.

2. Retrieve pill from floor and cat from behind sofa. Cradle cat in left
arm and repeat process.

3. Retrieve cat from bedroom, and throw soggy pill away.

4. Take new pill from foil wrap, cradle cat in left arm -- holding rear
paws tightly with left hand. Force jaws open and push pill to
back of mouth with right forefinger. Hold mouth shut for a count of ten.

5. Retrieve pill from goldfish bowl and cat from top of wardrobe. Call
spouse from garden.

6. Kneel on floor with cat wedged firmly between knees, hold front and
rear paws. Ignore low growls emitted by cat. Get spouse to hold head
firmly with one hand while forcing wooden ruler into mouth. Drop pill
down ruler and rub cat's throat vigorously for 30-40 seconds.

7. Retrieve cat from curtain rail, get another pill from foil wrap. Make
note to buy new ruler and repair curtains. Carefully sweep shattered
figurines and vases from hearth and set to one side for gluing later.

8. Wrap cat in large towel and get spouse to lie on cat with head just
visible from below armpit. Put pill in end of drinking straw, force open
with pencil and blow down drinking straw.

9. Check label to make sure pill not harmful to humans, drink 1 beer to
take taste away. Apply Band-Aid to spouse's forearm and remove blood from
carpet with cold water and soap. Throw pieces of towel in garbage.

10. Retrieve cat from neighbor's shed. Get another pill. Open another
beer. Place cat in cupboard and close door onto neck to leave head
showing. Force mouth open with dessert spoon. Flick pill down throat
with elastic band.

11. Fetch screwdriver from garage and put cupboard door back on hinges.
Drink beer. Fetch bottle of scotch. Pour shot, drink. Apply cold compress
to cheek and check records for date of last tetanus shot. Apply whiskey
compress to cheek to disinfect. Toss back another shot. Throw T-shirt away
and fetch new one from bedroom.

12. Ring fire brigade to retrieve the cat from tree across the
road. Apologize to neighbor who crashed into fence while swerving to
avoid cat. Take last pill from foil wrap.

13. Tie the cat's front paws to rear paws with garden
twine and bind tightly to leg of dining room table, find heavy duty pruning
gloves from shed. Push pill into mouth followed by large piece of fillet
steak. Be rough about it. Hold head vertically and pour 2 pints of water
down throat to wash pill down. Pray vigorously while performing all steps.

14. Consume remainder of Scotch. Get spouse to drive you to the emergency
room, sit quietly while doctor stitches fingers and forearm and removes
pill remnants from right eye. Call furniture shop on way home to order
new table.

15. Arrange for ASPCA to collect mutant cat from hell and ring local pet
shop to see if they have any hamsters left.



DOGS:
1. Wrap pill in bacon.



"Greg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Lloyd Parker wrote:
>
> > Didn't "separate but equal" get discredited in the 1950s?

>
> Apparently not, see Harvey Milk Public High School, City of New York. It

is a
> separate public high school for gay students only. Interesting that the

gay
> lobby only feels like latching on to the civil rights crusade to receive

equal
> treatment when it is most convenient.
>
> First we hear that gay people need to be married, because they need to be
> treated like anyone else, than we hear that they need separate schools,

unlike
> anyone else.
>
> And just try not hiring any job applicant with that school on his/her

resumé and
> try to claim that you aren't discriminating on sexuality.
>



 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 02:22:35 GMT, Brandon Sommerville
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 16:25:51 -0700, Bill Funk <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:09:47 GMT, Brandon Sommerville
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 17:18:54 -0700, Bill Funk <[email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 19:22:36 GMT, Brandon Sommerville
>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>You can always pay for more care here, if you want a chiropractor or
>>>>>you want to go to some sort of therapist or something along those
>>>>>lines. What you *don't* get is the right to skip to the head of the
>>>>>line because you've got more disposable income if you need or want a
>>>>>non-critical procedure.
>>>>
>>>>Really?
>>>>So your health system is non-competitive, in the sense that doctors
>>>>can't work outside the system?
>>>
>>>Not that I'm aware of, unless they want to work for free.

>>
>>it seemed that way, from what was written...
>>"What you *don't* get is the right to skip to the head of the line
>>because you've got more disposable income if you need or want a
>>non-critical procedure."
>>
>>This seems to be saying that you can't get faster service even if you
>>pay for it.
>>But if doctors can work outside the system, why can't you get service
>>faster by paying more?

>
>There are big discussions going on now about private clinics: should
>they be allowed or not?
>
>If so, we essentially have a two tier health system: One for the
>wealthy, one for the rest. That sort of defeats the purpose behind
>the concept.


Which concept would that be?
The one about making sure that everyone has access to health care?
Or the one about making sure that the government controls health care?

--
Bill Funk
replace "g" with "a"
 


"David J. Allen" wrote:
>
> ...That isn't the point, and no it isn't tough on Athiests (they should
> thank.... oh never mind). The basis for our entire political system, and
> what made it unique at the time, is the concept that there are certain
> rights that can't be granted by *any* institution or government (or
> community) because they are inalienable. So they were described as granted
> "by God".
>
> The notion that our rights are granted by the community is un-American.
> Literally. In the monarchies of the past, rights were derived from the
> monarch. They were the gods of their subjects. Communism claims all rights
> eminate from the government or 'proletariet'.


That is a singularly and extremely important point that we all need to
be reminded of - myself included.

Thanks, David!

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:03:23 GMT, "David J. Allen"
<dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:

>
>"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 21:29:11 GMT, "David J. Allen"
>> <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Marriage is what it is for the benefit is provides to society not for any
>> >civil right it satisfies.

>>
>> And that benefit is children, right? Which brings us back to couples
>> who can't or don't want to have children. It also leads us to the
>> question of what is better for kids? An unhappy marriage between a
>> man and a woman or a happy relationship between two men or two women?
>> As long as they learn how to love someone else, it doesn't matter the
>> sex of that person.

>
>No, the benefit is carrying forward values and blessings from generation to
>generation. You can try to stir up the stew by throwing in a bunch of "what
>if"'s about happy, well adjusted, smart, intelligent gay couples and stupid,
>idiodic, lying, cheating, bank-robbing straight couples. It doesn't change
>the principles of the argument though.
>
>Changing marriage into a civil right for <fill in the blank> rather than an
>institution to bless our continued existence over the generations.


And "our continued existence over the generations" means children,
doesn't it?

>> >No. The right believes in natural rights that are God given.

>>
>> Tough on atheists, isn't it? Every right is granted by the community,
>> not god (which god anyways?).
>>

>That isn't the point, and no it isn't tough on Athiests (they should
>thank.... oh never mind). The basis for our entire political system, and
>what made it unique at the time, is the concept that there are certain
>rights that can't be granted by *any* institution or government (or
>community) because they are inalienable. So they were described as granted
>"by God".
>
>The notion that our rights are granted by the community is un-American.
>Literally. In the monarchies of the past, rights were derived from the
>monarch. They were the gods of their subjects. Communism claims all rights
>eminate from the government or 'proletariet'.


It's ironic that it's considered un-American, due to the fact that
it's the American community that grants these rights. The state is
limited by agreement in what it can or cannot take away from the
people.

>We all know that he who has the power to grant, also has the power to take
>away.


Patriot Act, anyone?

>By the way... are you from Canada? It didn't occur to me that you might be
>and that maybe Canadians rights aren't recognized as "God given".


Yep, I'm from the Great White North.

>> >The left
>> >loves to pile on with new rights all the time. We start out with rights of
>> >life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and the bill of rights and the
>> >libs want to drive it as far as they can with rights to benefits, jobs,
>> >shelter, health care, etc.. All of which would obligate the government to
>> >provide them. The right believes that, generally, individuals should be
>> >responsible for their own welfare and do a better job of it that the
>> >government.

>>
>> If only we could come to a fair balance. The problem now is that as
>> soon as something is suggested by the left the right reflexively
>> dismisses it and the same thing happens to that suggested by the
>> right. *Who* puts forward the idea has become more important than the
>> idea itself.

>
>Well that works both ways (left and right). And it's true for the politcal
>faces of Democrats and Republicans.


Isn't that what I just said?

>But actually, it isn't true. Both left
>and right have won ideological vitories in the US. There is a huge
>entitlement class in the US thanks to the left. The right is not going to
>change it. The right has built a powerful military that has protected
>freedom and liberty wordwide and has the courage to use it.


Both of those were started before things got so badly entrenched.

>> >> Why is this not good? Hell, 50 yrs ago the idea of a woman working
>> >> outside the home was a bad thing. The idea of a woman executive was
>> >> unthinkable, yet here we are today.
>> >>
>> >Because it changes the nature of marriage. It changes it into a union whose
>> >purpose is to acquire benefits, most of which are available outside
>> >marriage, and are specific to protecting the dependents of a provider.

>>
>> Women working changed the nature of marriage too. We survived.

>
>We have, but it's caused family problems for double income families with
>children. It hasn't been a good thing. It's tended towards a negative
>effect on families. The idea of women in the work force as a concept
>isolated to itself is not an issue. Just it's effect on the family.


And somehow gays getting married will make this worse?

>> >BTW, we don't have a completely gender normalized society and it's debatable
>> >that it would be beneficial. One could *never* differentiate based on
>> >gender. Is that necessarily good?

>>
>> Why should you differentiate on gender for anything except who your
>> life partner is?
>>

>Oh heavens. Anything we do by gender. Public bathrooms and locker rooms,
>public nudity,


If it wasn't forbidden none of this would matter!

>public discrimination of private organizations that gender
>discriminate (the priesthood, private universities, etc.).


Do only men have the ability to commune with your god? Separate
universities are already under attack, aren't they?

>There are
>probably better examples, but we wouldn't benefit from a gender normalized
>society. That's not to say that there are some things that should be gender
>normalized that maybe aren't, just that it's unrealistic and undesirable to
>normalize *everything* we do and *every* institution by gender. That's why
>the Equal Rights Amendment lost 30 years ago. Men and women are different
>to a degree that warrants proper discrimination.


The problem with the Equal Rights Amendment was that it was simply the
pendulum swinging the other way instead of rational thought. If it
came down to a choice between a more qualified man and a less
qualified woman, the woman was to be chosen because she was a woman.
Before that it was the other way around. The *right* way to do it is
closer to being in place now, where the gender of the person is
irrelevant. There needs to be a single standard and if someone can
meet it or exceed it, the job is theirs.

>> The courts *should* protect what individuals choose. It would seem
>> that you're all about freedom until it compromises your ideas about
>> what people should be doing.

>
>Not at all! The courts have no such jurisdiction! They only have power to
>rule on the law.


And to determine when a law is wrong.

>You seem to have missed the point. If marriage were a
>civil right, then congress could not pass laws regulating it and the courts
>would enforce it. As long as it isn't a civil right, congress, or
>legislatures, can regulate it in the interest of the public welfare (that's
>for you Lloyd) as they see fit. Since they are our representatives, they
>represent the public view by how they vote to regulate things. If they vote
>to allow gay marriage. That's what we'll do. If the court "finds" a right
>to marriage in the constitution (and only a leftest court would), then
>congress is removed from the picture and thus the desires and opinions of
>the people on the matter are rendered irrelevent (unless we pass a
>constitutional amendment).


Maybe Canada has a leftist Supreme Court then, because IIRC it was
found to be discrimination to prevent same sex couples from getting
married.
--
Brandon Sommerville
remove ".gov" to e-mail

Definition of "Lottery":
Millions of stupid people contributing
to make one stupid person look smart.
 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:50:58 -0700, Bill Funk <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 02:22:35 GMT, Brandon Sommerville
><[email protected]> wrote:


>>There are big discussions going on now about private clinics: should
>>they be allowed or not?
>>
>>If so, we essentially have a two tier health system: One for the
>>wealthy, one for the rest. That sort of defeats the purpose behind
>>the concept.

>
>Which concept would that be?
>The one about making sure that everyone has access to health care?
>Or the one about making sure that the government controls health care?


Equal access to health care.
--
Brandon Sommerville
remove ".gov" to e-mail

Definition of "Lottery":
Millions of stupid people contributing
to make one stupid person look smart.
 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 05:02:39 GMT, "David J. Allen"
<dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>
>"Daniel J. Stern" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:p[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Greg wrote:


>> > Because if banning marriage of gays is discriminatory, than banning
>> > marriage of consenting adults in parties greater than two etc. certainly
>> > is too.

>>
>> Is this supposed to be scary and/or threatening? If so, why? Or is it just
>> another one of those things that you think should be illegal because you
>> think it's icky or whatever and it's been that way for as long as you can
>> remember?
>>

>Perhaps you presume that those who believe in the value of marriage and
>familty to society, to the exclusion of moral anarchy, is due to weak
>mindedness. Peasants nodding agreement, with bland stares, to
>power-mongering priests.
>
>Quite to the contrary in my view.


Nor mine. I've been married now for about 8 years and have a very
high regard for the institution of marriage. What I have with my wife
and my son isn't threatened at all if gays get married. I don't
understand why *you* feel threatened by it.
--
Brandon Sommerville
remove ".gov" to e-mail

Definition of "Lottery":
Millions of stupid people contributing
to make one stupid person look smart.
 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 05:43:35 GMT, "David J. Allen"
<dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:

>"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> We're already in the long run now. With divorce rates as high as they
>> are, marriage has apparently lost whatever sacred aspect there was to
>> it to society in general.

>
>I disagree. Whatever the marriage failure rate has been or is, there are
>still plenty of successful enough marriages and family units and the hope
>for better success is always there.


If someone presented you with a business model that had a 50% failure
rate with a few great successes, would you consider it overall to be a
success or would you recommend changing it?

>> >> So gay families with either adopted kids or kids from prior
>> >> relationships don't count?
>> >
>> >I'm not for gay adoption and kids from prior marriages don't mean anything
>> >legally in a new marriage of any stripe. Step parents don't have any legal
>> >obligations or rights to step children.

>>
>> They provide a stable environment for those kids to grow up in.

>
>Too often (not always) step-parents intrude on a childs relationship with
>the only full-time parent they have left. And the dependent benefits of
>marriage don't apply to second marriages. The biological parents retain
>most of the protective benefits of marriage, even after divorce for the sake
>of the children unless an adoption occurs.


So since step parents can be harmful to the family unit should we
disallow re-marriage?
--
Brandon Sommerville
remove ".gov" to e-mail

Definition of "Lottery":
Millions of stupid people contributing
to make one stupid person look smart.
 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 05:53:32 GMT, "David J. Allen"
<dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:

>
>"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:32:03 -0500, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Now, back to the real question, what do you specifically have against
>> gay marriage?

>
>Maybe you've missed many of the earlier posts.


The question was directed at Greg who brought up the red herring of
incest.

As far as you're concerned I know you're worried about devaluing
something that has a 50% success rate these days. If I were you I'd
be complaining about hetero couples devaluing it!
--
Brandon Sommerville
remove ".gov" to e-mail

Definition of "Lottery":
Millions of stupid people contributing
to make one stupid person look smart.
 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:17:12 GMT, "David J. Allen"
<dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:

>
>"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:06:44 GMT, "David J. Allen"
>> <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Anectodal. The principles behind marriage are what they are and variation
>> >*within* those principles are insignificant. Changing the principles behind
>> >marriage are significant and opens a door that will force us to re-evaluate
>> >the meaning of marriage in ever changing contexts.

>>
>> Why is re-evalution bad? The current model is failing badly at the
>> moment, unless you consider a 50% failure rate to be a success.

>
>Divorce, by itself, isn't proof our insitution of marriage doesn't work.


You're right. And were the rate 10 or even 20% you'd have a point.
But 50%?

>Early on Lenin and the Soviets attempted to eradicate the family so the
>state could raise children ideologically pure. Now there's a model that
>failed badly.


I'm not arguing with that.

>> >If our society were normalized for race, racial differences would be
>> >abstracted out of all our institutions. Oh, that it were the case!
>> >Unfortunately, the agenda of liberal black groups like the NAACP and what's
>> >his name Farrakhan is to abnormalize race, not normalize it. Abnormal works
>> >both ways.

>>
>> If people were truly colour blind then those institutions would have
>> no purpose and would disappear. Racism occurs on both sides,
>> unfortunately.

>
>I'm sure it does, but don't get the idea that those organizations exist (any
>longer) because of racism. They've transformed into political and financial
>entities seeking power. They love to find racism to justify the good will
>they need to exist. They love to find racism so much they'll find it where
>it isn't... just to find something. They love to conjure up anger and
>resentment in the black community at every turn.


My experience has been that those who are racist themselves are the
most likely to have racist experiences and scream the loudest about
them. Political entities exist originally for a purpose, then that
purpose inevitably evolves into the existence of the political entity
itself. They rely on what racism exists (a lot less blatant now, but
far from non-existant) to make it appear that there is a lot more. If
there were truly none, then no one would react or believe in their
message.

>> >Normalizing our institutions based on sexual preference is much different,
>> >at least for marriage. It isn't about making it more inclusive, it's about
>> >redefining it. It changes the nature of marriage.

>>
>> Two people formally agreeing to an exclusive arrangement. Sounds
>> pretty similar to me.

>
>That's not marriage. That's a contract and anyone (adult) can enter a
>contract.


Marriage *is* a contract. I remember signing the papers!
--
Brandon Sommerville
remove ".gov" to e-mail

Definition of "Lottery":
Millions of stupid people contributing
to make one stupid person look smart.
 

"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 07:17:12 GMT, "David J. Allen"
> <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:06:44 GMT, "David J. Allen"
> >> <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Anectodal. The principles behind marriage are what they are and

variation
> >> >*within* those principles are insignificant. Changing the principles

behind
> >> >marriage are significant and opens a door that will force us to

re-evaluate
> >> >the meaning of marriage in ever changing contexts.
> >>
> >> Why is re-evalution bad? The current model is failing badly at the
> >> moment, unless you consider a 50% failure rate to be a success.

> >
> >Divorce, by itself, isn't proof our insitution of marriage doesn't work.

>
> You're right. And were the rate 10 or even 20% you'd have a point.
> But 50%?
>


Well... yeah! 50% is a lot, but not all of that 50% is a failure of the
institution. People do try again and end up in marriage that work. I think
if the number of people who just decided not to marry (because they didn't
believe in or trust the insitution) was large enough, then the institution
would begin to teeter and lose it's value in society.



> >Early on Lenin and the Soviets attempted to eradicate the family so the
> >state could raise children ideologically pure. Now there's a model that
> >failed badly.

>
> I'm not arguing with that.
>


Well, it is an example of a failed insitution. It doesn't exist anymore.
Marriage does mostly in it's traditional form.

> >> >If our society were normalized for race, racial differences would be
> >> >abstracted out of all our institutions. Oh, that it were the case!
> >> >Unfortunately, the agenda of liberal black groups like the NAACP and

what's
> >> >his name Farrakhan is to abnormalize race, not normalize it. Abnormal

works
> >> >both ways.
> >>
> >> If people were truly colour blind then those institutions would have
> >> no purpose and would disappear. Racism occurs on both sides,
> >> unfortunately.

> >
> >I'm sure it does, but don't get the idea that those organizations exist

(any
> >longer) because of racism. They've transformed into political and

financial
> >entities seeking power. They love to find racism to justify the good

will
> >they need to exist. They love to find racism so much they'll find it

where
> >it isn't... just to find something. They love to conjure up anger and
> >resentment in the black community at every turn.

>
> My experience has been that those who are racist themselves are the
> most likely to have racist experiences and scream the loudest about
> them. Political entities exist originally for a purpose, then that
> purpose inevitably evolves into the existence of the political entity
> itself. They rely on what racism exists (a lot less blatant now, but
> far from non-existant) to make it appear that there is a lot more. If
> there were truly none, then no one would react or believe in their
> message.
>


I think they're nearing that state, but there's a big stake in allowing this
racial circus to continue by Democrats. They need the black vote to win.
They benefit when the black community is stirred up in anger against "racial
injustice" (Republican policies). They can't afford to ignore or sweep
aside the black community. So they cultivate this stuff.

> >> >Normalizing our institutions based on sexual preference is much

different,
> >> >at least for marriage. It isn't about making it more inclusive, it's

about
> >> >redefining it. It changes the nature of marriage.
> >>
> >> Two people formally agreeing to an exclusive arrangement. Sounds
> >> pretty similar to me.

> >
> >That's not marriage. That's a contract and anyone (adult) can enter a
> >contract.

>
> Marriage *is* a contract. I remember signing the papers!


Sure, but it's way more than that. The reason it's treated as it is legally
is because of the way we view it's importance. It's not "merely" a
contract.

> --
> Brandon Sommerville
> remove ".gov" to e-mail
>
> Definition of "Lottery":
> Millions of stupid people contributing
> to make one stupid person look smart.



 
x-no-archive: yes

Brandon Sommerville wrote:

> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:32:03 -0500, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >x-no-archive: yes
> >
> >Brandon Sommerville wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 15:08:11 -0500, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Brandon Sommerville wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 00:35:30 -0500, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Siblings cannot either. I don't see you pointing out the 'discrimination' here.
> >> >>
> >> >> There are significant medical reasons for disallowing siblings to
> >> >> marry. Are you suggesting that there are similar reasons preventing
> >> >> gays from marrying?
> >> >
> >> >Only if the siblings are opposite sex & producing children is involved. Clearly
> >> >producing children is not a factor for gay marriage, why should it be for sibling
> >> >marriage? If two (or more) siblings wish to get married to get all those legal
> >> >benefits that people strive for in the form of marriage, why stop them?
> >>
> >> Children are impossible in a gay marriage. They are not impossible in
> >> a sibling marriage.

> >
> >Then why ban gay, sibling marriages, or marriages between sterilized siblings where
> >children are impossible?

>
> An interesting question. Now that I think about it, incest was fairly
> common amongst royalty in a number of different cultures.
>
> Do I support it? No. Why? Because it's far simpler to ban
> incestuous marriages in total than to just ban specific types based on
> testing. Suppose the tests were wrong?


It's far simpler to discriminate, in other words. Why can't Jeff marry his brother Jerry?
Besides who says that the siblings would need be incestous? What if they just want those
rights that the gay lobby claims are available only by marriage?

> Now, back to the real question, what do you specifically have against
> gay marriage?


The inconsistencies of the arguments being used to promote it (gays need to get "married"
to get the legal benefits, but providing the legal benefits doesn't seem to be good
enough), claiming the need to redefine words but only narrowly when convenient, among other
reasons already mentioned here.

 
x-no-archive: yes

Brandon Sommerville wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 05:53:32 GMT, "David J. Allen"
> <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:32:03 -0500, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Now, back to the real question, what do you specifically have against
> >> gay marriage?

> >
> >Maybe you've missed many of the earlier posts.

>
> The question was directed at Greg who brought up the red herring of
> incest.
>
> As far as you're concerned I know you're worried about devaluing
> something that has a 50% success rate these days. If I were you I'd
> be complaining about hetero couples devaluing it!


Gay marriages wouldn't have gay divorces too?

 


Brandon Sommerville wrote:
>
> If someone presented you with a business model that had a 50% failure
> rate with a few great successes, would you consider it overall to be a
> success or would you recommend changing it?


When a problem is attempted to be fixed in the business world, yeah -
you probably should change something. But change for the sake of change
is not necessarily going to fix the problem. IOW - a business is having
problems. Let's burn the buildings down and start making its
products(say pistons and crankshafts) out of plastic instead of metal.
We changed some things - so the problems are now fixed and we have a
successful business, right?

Yeah - lets see - my left leg is broken, so I'll put a tourniquet on my
right arm - yeah - I had a problem - I made a change - problem solved.

I don't think homosexual "marriages" are a fix for whatever problems,
real or perceived, there are with the institution of marriage.

Just my opinion...

Bill Putney
(to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with "x")


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
 


Brandon Sommerville wrote:

> You do realize that people will continue to call it marriage despite
> what the technical term is. It will mean the exact same thing for
> those people as well.
>
> Right now you're just bothered by semantics.


No I am bothered by judges changing laws by deciding to reinterpert
words or phrases. What people call something doesn't bother me. What
bothers me is having laws changed by judicial fiat.

Ed
 
Right wing faith based beliefs are being spead around the internet by rats
that follow Rush Limbaugh. They souldn't be allowed to clutter up groups
where politics isn't the topic.

Bill Funk wrote in message ...
>On Fri, 05 Dec 03 10:57:10 GMT, [email protected] (Lloyd Parker)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>> Bill Funk <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 04 Dec 03 10:23:56 GMT, [email protected] (Lloyd Parker)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Marriage, in our culture (Judeo/Christian) has been historically
>>>>
>>>>But the US government, not being JudeoChristian or any religion, should

not
>>>>reflect religious bias, should it?
>>>
>>>Depends on how you look at it.
>>>The government is made up of 'the people'.
>>>Those people's lives are, at least in part, shaped by their religion.
>>>To expect their government to be completely divorced from that
>>>religion (whatever religion it is, or even the combination of
>>>religions it is here) is being unrealistic. It's asking the people to
>>>ignore what they believe in.

>>
>>Or asking them to not force others to live like the majority wants. You

seem
>>to be advocating the Taliban style of government -- those who are in power

get
>>to enforce their religious beliefs on everybody else.

>
>You're completely missing what I'm saying.
>Probably on purpose.
>
>Tha Taliban not only allowed the gov't to accfdept the fact that
>religion forms a strong part of many people's lives, but it went far
>further: it drcreed HOW that religion would be a strong part of their
>lives.
>I'm not advocating anything of the sort.
>But you knew that; you simply over-reated to an idea that didn't fit
>*YOUR* idea of how religion should (or shouldn't) be recognized.
>Gee, it seems that YOU are far more closely allied to the ideas of the
>Taliban than I am, since you want to dictate far more than I do.
>>
>>>
>>>It is a goal of our government, at this time, to attempt to divorce
>>>itself from all religion. Is that good?
>>>How can we expect our government to come up with laws that have no
>>>base? No anchor at all? How can we possibly expect to base our laws on
>>>the human experience, and then expect to deny a large part of that
>>>experience?
>>>
>>>I'm not proposing a theocracy, but I do think that trying to deny all
>>>religious beliefs is simply impossible, and, as such, should be
>>>recognized.
>>>

>
>--
>Bill Funk
>replace "g" with "a"


 
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 17:37:23 -0500, "Daniel J. Stern"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association,
>American Medical Association,


All of these groups classified homosexuality as a mental disorder
until liberal organizations conned government into removing all
funding from them under the guise that calling a mental disorder a
disorder is discriminatory.

Once the power of money got in the way, science was no longer
important.

The fact is that homosexuality can not be genetic. Two major reasons
- it would have disappeared a long time ago as homos can't reproduce,
and both twins of identical twins are no more often homosexual than
the rest of the population is, which is 5%.

Take that and stuff it up your rather large ass hole and smoke it.

>government of Ontario, government of Canada,


Governments are certainly not authoritative on science. Even an idiot
like you should know that.

>government of Germany, government of Holland


Yes, we all get our facts about sex from Holland.
 


AHoudini wrote:

> Right wing faith based beliefs are being spead around the internet by rats
> that follow Rush Limbaugh. They souldn't be allowed to clutter up groups
> where politics isn't the topic.


That's pretty far out there. Nobody was discussing Rush Limbaugh. Naturally
though you like to be able to say who should not be allowed to post on politics,
in the next sentence after you do so yourself.

>
>
> Bill Funk wrote in message ...
> >On Fri, 05 Dec 03 10:57:10 GMT, [email protected] (Lloyd Parker)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In article <[email protected]>,
> >> Bill Funk <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>On Thu, 04 Dec 03 10:23:56 GMT, [email protected] (Lloyd Parker)
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>Marriage, in our culture (Judeo/Christian) has been historically
> >>>>
> >>>>But the US government, not being JudeoChristian or any religion, should

> not
> >>>>reflect religious bias, should it?
> >>>
> >>>Depends on how you look at it.
> >>>The government is made up of 'the people'.
> >>>Those people's lives are, at least in part, shaped by their religion.
> >>>To expect their government to be completely divorced from that
> >>>religion (whatever religion it is, or even the combination of
> >>>religions it is here) is being unrealistic. It's asking the people to
> >>>ignore what they believe in.
> >>
> >>Or asking them to not force others to live like the majority wants. You

> seem
> >>to be advocating the Taliban style of government -- those who are in power

> get
> >>to enforce their religious beliefs on everybody else.

> >
> >You're completely missing what I'm saying.
> >Probably on purpose.
> >
> >Tha Taliban not only allowed the gov't to accfdept the fact that
> >religion forms a strong part of many people's lives, but it went far
> >further: it drcreed HOW that religion would be a strong part of their
> >lives.
> >I'm not advocating anything of the sort.
> >But you knew that; you simply over-reated to an idea that didn't fit
> >*YOUR* idea of how religion should (or shouldn't) be recognized.
> >Gee, it seems that YOU are far more closely allied to the ideas of the
> >Taliban than I am, since you want to dictate far more than I do.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>It is a goal of our government, at this time, to attempt to divorce
> >>>itself from all religion. Is that good?
> >>>How can we expect our government to come up with laws that have no
> >>>base? No anchor at all? How can we possibly expect to base our laws on
> >>>the human experience, and then expect to deny a large part of that
> >>>experience?
> >>>
> >>>I'm not proposing a theocracy, but I do think that trying to deny all
> >>>religious beliefs is simply impossible, and, as such, should be
> >>>recognized.
> >>>

> >
> >--
> >Bill Funk
> >replace "g" with "a"


 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 16:07:46 GMT, Brandon Sommerville
<[email protected]> wrote:

>If someone presented you with a business model that had a 50% failure


Ah the typical liberal idiot method of making up facts to prove
something we all know is false.

If you told somebody that businesses have a failure rate of about 90%,
they would argue how that isn't true because most businesses they know
of go on for years. But it is true, because the rate is based on how
many new businesses fail compared to how many are started each year.

Which is how liberals came up with the divorce rate bull****. Of
course, if you remove the liberal divorces, the rate is more like 10%.

Funny, I wonder how liberals got together to make that happen.
 
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 12:24:50 -0500, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Brandon Sommerville wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 05:53:32 GMT, "David J. Allen"
>> <dallen03NO_SPAM@sanNO_SPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Brandon Sommerville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:32:03 -0500, Greg <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Now, back to the real question, what do you specifically have against
>> >> gay marriage?
>> >
>> >Maybe you've missed many of the earlier posts.

>>
>> The question was directed at Greg who brought up the red herring of
>> incest.
>>
>> As far as you're concerned I know you're worried about devaluing
>> something that has a 50% success rate these days. If I were you I'd
>> be complaining about hetero couples devaluing it!

>
>Gay marriages wouldn't have gay divorces too?


Irrelevant. The point was that marriage is apparently something too
valuable to risk tampering with. At a 50% failure rate, society
apparently doesn't consider it to be that valuable anymore.
--
Brandon Sommerville
remove ".gov" to e-mail

Definition of "Lottery":
Millions of stupid people contributing
to make one stupid person look smart.
 
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