Diesel additive, 2-stroke oil?

Shifty1962 · Apr 22, 2009

I've been using engine oil from my local garage mixed between 10% and 15% with petrol to thin it. No need to be to exact just make sure it is roughly the same viscosity as diesel. I filter out any large bits using some old wine filters I had in the shed before pumping it through these lucas filters which I got cheap at a marine supplies shop. £10 brand new and I can get packs of 20 filter elements for £18 on the net.
They filter down to 5 microns and I've been tipping it straight into my tank once filtered. I started on a 50:50 mix of diesel to home brew but now have it up to 100% as the weather has warmed up. It smokes a tad on starting but once warmed up you'd never know the difference.
My next plan is to get hold of a centrifuge filter and a decent pump so that I can do bigger batches more quickly. I dont intend buying any diesel this summer and a 20ltr jerry of petrol at 10% mixes up to 200ltr of fuel. Cost apprx £20 which is the equivalent of 10p per litre assuming you can get the used oil for nowt. Obviously there are the initial set up costs but you should be quids in after your second batch of 200lt.

Ilson lad · Apr 24, 2009

Another wee question

A neighbour who works in a textile factory may be able to let me have used sewing machine oil (5w-10w). Reading on here about "cutting" regular engine oil by 5-10%, was wondering if this sewing machine oil may be too "thin" to use?

Shifty1962 · Apr 24, 2009

Sounds ideal to me. I dont think you could have an oil that was too thin. 5w-10w is not too heavy and used sewing machine oil is probably a lot cleaner than used engine oil as it wont have combustion products in suspension. It should need little if any cutting to make it around the same viscosity as pump diesel.
I suppose it depends on how much you can get but I'd filter it and try it 50:50 with diesel to start with. Put 10ltrs of this mix in an empty tank and try it. If it doesn't work top the tank off with pump diesel and dilute it to where it wont make any difference. Once I was happy I'd increase the mix and find out what my engine was happiest with. You may find that it will run on 100% sewing machine oil with no problems. As with all these alternative oils as fuel it basically comes down to the viscosity that your pumps and injectors are happy with. I've yet to hear of an oil that wont burn.
I'm told that a diesel engine will run on baby oil if it was all you could get. Might smel a bit girly though!
I'm converted to the used engine oil as it is plentiful and easier to come by than veg oil without the problems of animal fats and chemistry etc.

Ilson lad · Apr 25, 2009

Cheers for yer thoughts on that Shifty

Im not sure as yet as to how much this bloke can get for me but as I only use the 90 for weekend fun,Im not after 45 gallon drums at a time

Shifty1962 · Apr 25, 2009

Well for every litre you put in your tank you will be saving about £1 at current prices.

CharlesY · Apr 25, 2009

Shifty1962 said:
Well for every litre you put in your tank you will be saving about £1 at current prices.

Ain't that the plain truth?

Diesel prices are creeping up again, and there's a new tax rise coming soon.

Time to start running my TD5 Disco on my rocket fuel again!

CharlesY

Shifty1962 · Apr 25, 2009

Hey CharlesY.
I've abandoned the spark eroder fluid because it is too full of microscopic metal particles.
Pain in the arse to filter and when you try to lift a standard oil drum it feels 50% heavier than normal oil.
I'm sure it would be fine as fuel if you could handle it easily but for me the easiest option is hydraulic oil which my mate will deliver to my house and used engine oil which I can collect in 25 litre drums from my local garages free of charge if you dont count the biscuits I have to donate to their tea fund.

karamac · Apr 29, 2009

Hi All
I`ve been using veg oil in the Landy for a few years now with no probs but need some info on using the odd gallon or so of old engine oil. ( I know it runs fine in my Landy ! )
If I'm dipped after adding some waste engine oil in my tank, how far back do they make me pay fuel duty ? I know you can use up to 2500 litre veg oil per year, but I don`t think this applies to old engine oil.
Anyone been dipped ? What was the results ?

Regards,
Karamac

Shifty1962 · Apr 29, 2009

What makes you think it does not apply to old engine oil ?
As I understand it you can use up to 2500 litres of RECLAIMED oil per year for personal use as fuel.
If I get dipped then I'll be telling them I just did an oil change and tipped it in my tank rather than down the drain. There will be nothing in my tank other than traces of petrol, diesel, and some old engine oil.

CharlesY · Apr 29, 2009

Shifty1962 said:
Hey CharlesY.
I've abandoned the spark eroder fluid because it is too full of microscopic metal particles.
Pain in the arse to filter and when you try to lift a standard oil drum it feels 50% heavier than normal oil.
I'm sure it would be fine as fuel if you could handle it easily but for me the easiest option is hydraulic oil which my mate will deliver to my house and used engine oil which I can collect in 25 litre drums from my local garages free of charge if you dont count the biscuits I have to donate to their tea fund.

Hmmm..... try suspending a speaker magnet (or a hard-drive magnet) in a gallon of that oil overnight and send a photo of what happens.

Interesting!

Hydraulic oils are the business.

CharlesY

Shifty1962 · Apr 29, 2009

CharlesY said:
Hmmm..... try suspending a speaker magnet (or a hard-drive magnet) in a gallon of that oil overnight and send a photo of what happens.

Interesting!

Hydraulic oils are the business.

CharlesY

I dont have any to try the magnet thing but I'm sure I can arrange to hang a hard-drive magnet in the barrel overnight. Them magnets must be some of the most powerful available. Dont get your fingers between two of them cos it hurts like hell. :doh:

I'm with you regarding the hydraulic oil. Its cleaner and lighter than engine oil and as long as I can get it it wil be my preferred option. Just thought peeps would like to know how I got on with the engine oil.

I cant believe how well myTD5 is running considering the various types of oil I've been feeding it just lately. I did put 10 litres of thinned down EP90 in a virtually empty tank but it started to smoke on idle and under heavy throttle. Added 10 litres of diesel and after a short while the blue smoke disappeared so I guess gear oil is just to heavy to work without smoke or needs some serious thinning.

motiztab · Apr 29, 2009

This is all still very interesting reading. Some of youmight have seen from another thread that i had a little smoking when i had a try at this, to the point I could have sold the 90 to the army as a smoke machine!!
As I was using old engine oil (tractor oil in fact) i think the thining was just to little at one stage it even got to the point that when cold would only run on 3!
well after draining the tank, changing the filter still could not get rid of the smoke, that was when i pulled the injectors out! Boy what crap did i find all around the injector holes. Had to spend some very carefull chipping with a pick to get rid of it.
So the question is who is running on engine oil and what have you thinned it with? Do you have any smoke when cold or at anytime, i know Shifty has but I think he is now passed engine oil and now on machine oil.

karamac · Apr 30, 2009

Shifty1962 said:
What makes you think it does not apply to old engine oil ?
As I understand it you can use up to 2500 litres of RECLAIMED oil per year for personal use as fuel.
If I get dipped then I'll be telling them I just did an oil change and tipped it in my tank rather than down the drain. There will be nothing in my tank other than traces of petrol, diesel, and some old engine oil.

Cheers Shifty

As far as I'm aware the 2500 litres allowance is for the production and use of bio-fuels and does not include the use of hydrocarbon oils.
[Quote from Revenue & Customs Breif 45/08 " Legislation was introduced in the Finance Act 2008 and, with effect from 1 November 2008, heavy oil (including waste oils or petroleum fuels derived from waste oil) which does not meet the fiscal definition of kerosene, gas oil or fuel oil will attract the rebated rate of duty for fuel oil when put to a heating use or used as fuel in an off-road engine. Currently, the rate is 9.29 pence per litre. If used as road fuel, the rebated rate, that is the fuel oil rate, does not apply, and the full rate of duty, currently 50.35 pence per litre, is due. ]
I thin down old engine oil with diesel 50/50 and then filter down to 5 microns and it works fine for summer use. I just wonder what will happen if I'm found to have it in my tank WHEN I'm dipped, how much the fine is, and how far back will they go to reclaim lost revenue ?
Has anyone actually been dipped and found to have old engine oil/diesel mix in their tank ( without any other thinning oils added, kero etc. ) ? WHAT WAS THE RESULT ???
I think we have to be clear on the outcome before we can say it's OK to bung the stuff in our tanks.

Shifty1962 · Apr 30, 2009

karamac said:
Cheers Shifty
As far as I'm aware the 2500 litres allowance is for the production and use of bio-fuels and does not include the use of hydrocarbon oils.
[Quote from Revenue & Customs Breif 45/08 " Legislation was introduced in the Finance Act 2008 and, with effect from 1 November 2008, heavy oil (including waste oils or petroleum fuels derived from waste oil) which does not meet the fiscal definition of kerosene, gas oil or fuel oil will attract the rebated rate of duty for fuel oil when put to a heating use or used as fuel in an off-road engine. Currently, the rate is 9.29 pence per litre. If used as road fuel, the rebated rate, that is the fuel oil rate, does not apply, and the full rate of duty, currently 50.35 pence per litre, is due. ]

Hmmm. That don't sound good does it?

landyman1967 · Jul 16, 2009

hi charlesy, david (newbie) here, regarding mixing kerosene (paraffin) to used filtered engine oil, what ratio litre to litre would you suggest for example:- 5 litres of used engine oil, how much paraffin would you add to 5 litres of old engine oil?...regards david

Shifty1962 · Jul 16, 2009

landyman1967 said:
hi charlesy, david (newbie) here, regarding mixing kerosene (paraffin) to used filtered engine oil, what ratio litre to litre would you suggest for example:- 5 litres of used engine oil, how much paraffin would you add to 5 litres of old engine oil?...regards david

I'd stay away from parafin as you have no excuse if they find it in your tank.
Use petrol which costs less than parafin per litre and you can argue that it has fuel duty already paid if you have to.
Try a 10% mix ie. 1 litre per 9/10 litres of oil and see how you go. The reason for mixing is purely to get the consistency something like diesel so you will have to experiment depending on the oil you are using. 10% works for me in my TD5 but it is summer so I may have to adjust it during the colder weather.

BuzzLand · Jul 16, 2009

karamac said:
Cheers Shifty
As far as I'm aware the 2500 litres allowance is for the production and use of bio-fuels and does not include the use of hydrocarbon oils.
[Quote from Revenue & Customs Breif 45/08 " Legislation was introduced in the Finance Act 2008 and, with effect from 1 November 2008, heavy oil (including waste oils or petroleum fuels derived from waste oil) which does not meet the fiscal definition of kerosene, gas oil or fuel oil will attract the rebated rate of duty for fuel oil when put to a heating use or used as fuel in an off-road engine. Currently, the rate is 9.29 pence per litre. If used as road fuel, the rebated rate, that is the fuel oil rate, does not apply, and the full rate of duty, currently 50.35 pence per litre, is due. ]
I thin down old engine oil with diesel 50/50 and then filter down to 5 microns and it works fine for summer use. I just wonder what will happen if I'm found to have it in my tank WHEN I'm dipped, how much the fine is, and how far back will they go to reclaim lost revenue ?
Has anyone actually been dipped and found to have old engine oil/diesel mix in their tank ( without any other thinning oils added, kero etc. ) ? WHAT WAS THE RESULT ???
I think we have to be clear on the outcome before we can say it's OK to bung the stuff in our tanks.

Well I know that what they spew out on paper is one thing and what happens in real life is a completely different tale.

How sophisticated are there measuring devices? Landrovers burn a bit of oil anyway and unless you are running a 50 percent + mix of used engine oil how easy would it be to detect it?

Also you have the case of what is a 'waste oil' for all they know you could of used non-waste hydraulic oil or non-waste engine oil for engine management etc.

My next thought is that if they still say you've used engine oil and 'punish' you they can't just impound your vehicle. They can force you to pay the duty but impounding the vehicle is a no-no afaik.

Shifty1962 · Jul 16, 2009

BuzzLand said:
Well I know that what they spew out on paper is one thing and what happens in real life is a completely different tale.

How sophisticated are there measuring devices? Landrovers burn a bit of oil anyway and unless you are running a 50 percent + mix of used engine oil how easy would it be to detect it?

Also you have the case of what is a 'waste oil' for all they know you could of used non-waste hydraulic oil or non-waste engine oil for engine management etc.

My next thought is that if they still say you've used engine oil and 'punish' you they can't just impound your vehicle. They can force you to pay the duty but impounding the vehicle is a no-no afaik.

Be under no misunderstanding but HMRC revenue officers have more powers than the police. They can enter your home, freeze your bank accounts, seize property and vehicles all without a warrant from the courts. They can, and do, impound vehicles for evasion of fuel duty. They dont have to see your motor burning oil to dip the tank.
The onus will be on you to prove that you only tipped a gallon or two of used oil in your tank when the sample comes out as black as the ace of spades. When they tip up at your house and find 200 litres of used oil you'll have a big problem. They will require you to pay the duty on "their" estimated fuel usage from the last fuel receipt you have proving you bought diesel. Dont forget they can check your MOTs to confirm the mileage you have driven and if you have only bought £5 of diesel in the last year it wont look good. If you cant or wont pay you can go to jail, have your motor confiscated and destroyed, and still owe the imposed duty when you get out of pokey. They can then come to your house and take goods to cover the outstanding demand plus any costs.
Dont fcuk about with these guys as they will win every time.

BuzzLand · Jul 16, 2009

Only a madman would of given these people such powers.
I can understand customs doing this at a port but I've never heard VAT man doing this. Only in these internet horror stories do I hear of impoundments.

Such activities would be commonplace in a totalitarian regime.

Since when should the VAT man have such a power of an individual. Utterly wrong.

For the record the stories I've heard never included impoundments, just an emissions check and an on-the-spot fine...

karamac · Jul 17, 2009

Shifty1962 said:
Be under no misunderstanding but HMRC revenue officers have more powers than the police. They can enter your home, freeze your bank accounts, seize property and vehicles all without a warrant from the courts. They can, and do, impound vehicles for evasion of fuel duty. They dont have to see your motor burning oil to dip the tank.
The onus will be on you to prove that you only tipped a gallon or two of used oil in your tank when the sample comes out as black as the ace of spades. When they tip up at your house and find 200 litres of used oil you'll have a big problem. They will require you to pay the duty on "their" estimated fuel usage from the last fuel receipt you have proving you bought diesel. Dont forget they can check your MOTs to confirm the mileage you have driven and if you have only bought £5 of diesel in the last year it wont look good. If you cant or wont pay you can go to jail, have your motor confiscated and destroyed, and still owe the imposed duty when you get out of pokey. They can then come to your house and take goods to cover the outstanding demand plus any costs.
Dont fcuk about with these guys as they will win every time.

What if one loosened their belt and had some Vaseline ready ?

Diesel additive, 2-stroke oil?

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