definition of a proper off road vehicle ?

Huw (hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

>> > Petrol engine up to 600cc with seat for a maximum of two and a dog.

>> Yep, I quite fancy a Haflinger, too.

> Your dream can become a cheap reality at any quad-bike dealer. Used
> ones are plentiful to say the least.

No, none of my local quadbike dealers have any Haflingers in stock - I don't
think they even knew what one was...

<light dawns>
Why on earth would I want a quadbike...?

"Adrian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Huw (hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they
> were saying :
>
> >> > Petrol engine up to 600cc with seat for a maximum of two and a
dog.
>
> >> Yep, I quite fancy a Haflinger, too.
>
> > Your dream can become a cheap reality at any quad-bike dealer.
Used
> > ones are plentiful to say the least.
>
> No, none of my local quadbike dealers have any Haflingers in stock -
I don't
> think they even knew what one was...
>
> <light dawns>
> Why on earth would I want a quadbike...?

To tread lightly in extreme off-road conditions where Haflingers dare
not go?

Huw


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.572 / Virus Database: 362 - Release Date: 28/01/04

Geoff wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 16:12:19 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ->Strong ladder chassis, solid axles both ends on coil springs with
> lots of
> ->travel, permanent 4WD, low box with deep low gearing, engine with
> lots of
> ->torque below 2000rpm and decent set of tyres.
>
> How is permanent 4WD going to make any odds on a proper offroad
> vehicle ? What's wrong with leaf springs ? Get more articulation for
> less money. You don't mention approach, departure or ramp over angles.
> Diff clearance.
> C.O.G
>
> The most important thing a proper off road vehicle needs is the
> correct nut behind the wheel ;-)

This was the important bit of my post you snipped: ;-)

'It's whatever you want it to be, my personal definition is:'

To me permanent 4WD is important because I want 4WD all the time and
sometimes I want lowbox on a road that is grippy. I like to drive many miles
to off-road in interesting places so leaf springs are out coz they are
uncomfirtable on the way to the mud.

Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper off-roader is. I
mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap hairdresser motors are
cool . . . . . . . . .

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Geoff wrote:
> > On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 16:12:19 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > ->Strong ladder chassis, solid axles both ends on coil springs with
> > lots of
> > ->travel, permanent 4WD, low box with deep low gearing, engine with
> > lots of
> > ->torque below 2000rpm and decent set of tyres.
> >
> > How is permanent 4WD going to make any odds on a proper offroad
> > vehicle ? What's wrong with leaf springs ? Get more articulation for
> > less money. You don't mention approach, departure or ramp over angles.
> > Diff clearance.
> > C.O.G
> >
> > The most important thing a proper off road vehicle needs is the
> > correct nut behind the wheel ;-)
>
> This was the important bit of my post you snipped: ;-)
>
> 'It's whatever you want it to be, my personal definition is:'
>
> To me permanent 4WD is important because I want 4WD all the time and
> sometimes I want lowbox on a road that is grippy. I like to drive many
miles
> to off-road in interesting places so leaf springs are out coz they are
> uncomfirtable on the way to the mud.
>
> Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper off-roader is.
I
> mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap hairdresser motors are
> cool . . . . . . . . .
>
> --
> Julian
> ---------
> = Pretentious Sig required =

OK
What is "Underpowered"
>
>

"Charles Holder" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]
> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

<snip>

>> Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper
>> off-roader is. I mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap
>> hairdresser motors are cool . . . . . . . . .
>>
>> --
>> Julian
>> ---------
>> = Pretentious Sig required =
>
> OK
> What is "Underpowered"

LOL
Well, he'll probably want a slightly tuned-down Merlin V12 as his engine
of choice (so it'll get at least off the driveway without a refill).
And it better be center-steer, because Julian hates seats that are
mounted too close to the door.
;-)

"aghasee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Charles Holder" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper
> >> off-roader is. I mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap
> >> hairdresser motors are cool . . . . . . . . .
> >>
> >> --
> >> Julian
> >> ---------
> >> = Pretentious Sig required =
> >
> > OK
> > What is "Underpowered"
>
> LOL
> Well, he'll probably want a slightly tuned-down Merlin V12 as his engine
> of choice (so it'll get at least off the driveway without a refill).
> And it better be center-steer, because Julian hates seats that are
> mounted too close to the door.
> ;-)
>
>

Spitfires are truly "Off Road " vehicles ))

Charles Holder wrote:
> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Geoff wrote:
>>> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 16:12:19 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> ->Strong ladder chassis, solid axles both ends on coil springs with
>>> lots of
>>> ->travel, permanent 4WD, low box with deep low gearing, engine with
>>> lots of
>>> ->torque below 2000rpm and decent set of tyres.
>>>
>>> How is permanent 4WD going to make any odds on a proper offroad
>>> vehicle ? What's wrong with leaf springs ? Get more articulation for
>>> less money. You don't mention approach, departure or ramp over
>>> angles. Diff clearance.
>>> C.O.G
>>>
>>> The most important thing a proper off road vehicle needs is the
>>> correct nut behind the wheel ;-)
>>
>> This was the important bit of my post you snipped: ;-)
>>
>> 'It's whatever you want it to be, my personal definition is:'
>>
>> To me permanent 4WD is important because I want 4WD all the time and
>> sometimes I want lowbox on a road that is grippy. I like to drive
>> many miles to off-road in interesting places so leaf springs are out
>> coz they are uncomfirtable on the way to the mud.
>>
>> Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper
>> off-roader is. I mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap
>> hairdresser motors are cool . . . . . . . . .
>>
>> --
>> Julian
>> ---------
>> = Pretentious Sig required =
>
> OK
> What is "Underpowered"

Depends on the gearing.

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

"aghasee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Charles Holder" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
> news:[email protected]
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper
> >> off-roader is. I mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap
> >> hairdresser motors are cool . . . . . . . . .
> >>
> >> --
> >> Julian
> >> ---------
> >> = Pretentious Sig required =
> >
> > OK
> > What is "Underpowered"
>
> LOL
> Well, he'll probably want a slightly tuned-down Merlin V12 as his engine
> of choice (so it'll get at least off the driveway without a refill).
> And it better be center-steer, because Julian hates seats that are
> mounted too close to the door.
> ;-)
>
>

IIRC one of the American Bigfoot type show monsters has a V12 WW2 Allison or
Packard Aero engine out of a P-51 before they started using Brit engines.

rhys

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:42:09 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:

->> How is permanent 4WD going to make any odds on a proper offroad
->> vehicle ? What's wrong with leaf springs ? Get more articulation for
->> less money. You don't mention approach, departure or ramp over angles.
->> Diff clearance.
->> C.O.G
->>
->> The most important thing a proper off road vehicle needs is the
->> correct nut behind the wheel ;-)
->
->This was the important bit of my post you snipped: ;-)

You made only the one valid point so I thought I would snip it !! )

->'It's whatever you want it to be, my personal definition is:'

Proper off road we are talking about not personal definition.

->To me permanent 4WD is important because I want 4WD all the time and
->sometimes I want lowbox on a road that is grippy. I like to drive many miles
->to off-road in interesting places so leaf springs are out coz they are
->uncomfirtable on the way to the mud.

Can't agree there, leafs are ok on road, done loads of 100+ mile road trips on
leafs not a problem, off road leafs are more uncomfortable but they can be made
into a trick suspension much cheaper and easier then coils.

->Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper off-roader is. I
->mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap hairdresser motors are
->cool . . . . . . . . .

What's being cool got to do with anything ?

How about power to weight ?

Funny your ideal off road car is what my Mrs uses every day for work and Tesco's
;-)

--
Geoff
www.anoraks.uk.net

Geoff wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:42:09 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ->> How is permanent 4WD going to make any odds on a proper offroad
> ->> vehicle ? What's wrong with leaf springs ? Get more articulation
> for
> ->> less money. You don't mention approach, departure or ramp over
> angles.
> ->> Diff clearance.
> ->> C.O.G
> ->>
> ->> The most important thing a proper off road vehicle needs is the
> ->> correct nut behind the wheel ;-)
> ->
> ->This was the important bit of my post you snipped: ;-)
>
> You made only the one valid point so I thought I would snip it !! )
>
> ->'It's whatever you want it to be, my personal definition is:'
>
> Proper off road we are talking about not personal definition.
>
Yes we are. They are about what the owner wants to achieve. They are about
what the intended use is. Are you really saying that both an overlander and
a trialler must be the same to be a proper off-roader?

> ->To me permanent 4WD is important because I want 4WD all the time and
> ->sometimes I want lowbox on a road that is grippy. I like to drive
> many miles
> ->to off-road in interesting places so leaf springs are out coz they
> are
> ->uncomfirtable on the way to the mud.
>
> Can't agree there, leafs are ok on road, done loads of 100+ mile road
> trips on leafs not a problem, off road leafs are more uncomfortable
> but they can be made into a trick suspension much cheaper and easier
> then coils.
>
Leafs are crap. That's why no manufacturers use them anymore except on the
back of the odd pickup truck. You're just polishing a turd.

> ->Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper
> off-roader is. I
> ->mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap hairdresser
> motors are
> ->cool . . . . . . . . .
>
> What's being cool got to do with anything ?
>
Everything - getting stuck is uncool dude. . . . .

> How about power to weight ?
>
Irrelevant. If you knew anything about off-roading you'd know it's torque to
weight ratio that matters. All my off-roaders have more than 140lb-ft per
tonne below 2500rpm. Who cares what the power output is?

> Funny your ideal off road car is what my Mrs uses every day for work
> and Tesco's ;-)

At least you've got someone to give you a tow home then. . . . . . . . .
;-)

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:38:02 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:

->Yes we are. They are about what the owner wants to achieve. They are about
->what the intended use is. Are you really saying that both an overlander and
->a trialler must be the same to be a proper off-roader?

No but then I don't class overlanding as proper offroading, more a long drive
where you have to drive down the odd unmade surface, well that's been the case
in my experience.

->> Can't agree there, leafs are ok on road, done loads of 100+ mile road
->> trips on leafs not a problem, off road leafs are more uncomfortable
->> but they can be made into a trick suspension much cheaper and easier
->> then coils.
->>
->Leafs are crap. That's why no manufacturers use them anymore except on the
->back of the odd pickup truck. You're just polishing a turd.

Leafs are cheap and leafs can be made to out articulate coils for a fraction of
the cost, leafs are not as nice to the user as coils, but then we are not
talking about comfort.

->Everything - getting stuck is uncool dude. . . . .

I don't get stuck often enough to worry about it )

->> How about power to weight ?
->>
->Irrelevant. If you knew anything about off-roading you'd know it's torque to
->weight ratio that matters. All my off-roaders have more than 140lb-ft per
->tonne below 2500rpm. Who cares what the power output is?

I guess it depends on if you like being big fat and heavy or lithe and light,
there is no ideal for offroading as different terrains / obstacles require
different things.

->> Funny your ideal off road car is what my Mrs uses every day for work
->> and Tesco's ;-)
->
->At least you've got someone to give you a tow home then. . . . . . . . .
->;-)

On road is not the ideal environment for my proper offroaders.

--
Geoff
www.anoraks.uk.net

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:38:02 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Geoff wrote:

>> How about power to weight ?
>>
>Irrelevant. If you knew anything about off-roading you'd know it's torque to
>weight ratio that matters. All my off-roaders have more than 140lb-ft per
>tonne below 2500rpm. Who cares what the power output is?

Funny that. The military, who might be expected to know a thing or two
about what's desirable in offroad vehicles, talk about power to weight
not torque. Who cares what the torque output is?

--
QrizB

"On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:38:02 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Geoff wrote:

>> How about power to weight ?
>>
>Irrelevant. If you knew anything about off-roading you'd know it's torque to
>weight ratio that matters. All my off-roaders have more than 140lb-ft per
>tonne below 2500rpm. Who cares what the power output is?

Adding another bit here:

140lb-ft per tonne at 2500 rpm = 67 hp per tonne at 2500 rpm.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm

--
QrizB

"On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:00:16 GMT, [email protected] (QrizB) wrote:

->
->Adding another bit here:
->
->140lb-ft per tonne at 2500 rpm = 67 hp per tonne at 2500 rpm.
->
Chris you have far too much time on your hands ;-)

--
Geoff
www.anoraks.uk.net

Geoff wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:38:02 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ->Yes we are. They are about what the owner wants to achieve. They
> are about
> ->what the intended use is. Are you really saying that both an
> overlander and
> ->a trialler must be the same to be a proper off-roader?
>
> No but then I don't class overlanding as proper offroading, more a
> long drive where you have to drive down the odd unmade surface, well
> that's been the case in my experience.
>
Exactly my point - horses for courses. You can't define a proper off-roader
unless you define the terrain.

> ->> Can't agree there, leafs are ok on road, done loads of 100+ mile
> road
> ->> trips on leafs not a problem, off road leafs are more
> uncomfortable
> ->> but they can be made into a trick suspension much cheaper and
> easier
> ->> then coils.
> ->>
> ->Leafs are crap. That's why no manufacturers use them anymore except
> on the
> ->back of the odd pickup truck. You're just polishing a turd.
>
> Leafs are cheap and leafs can be made to out articulate coils for a
> fraction of the cost, leafs are not as nice to the user as coils, but
> then we are not talking about comfort.
>
What has cost got to do with it? Coils springs usually cost less than decent
leaf springs. You may not talk about comfort, but I do - once again it
depends on your definition.

> ->Everything - getting stuck is uncool dude. . . . .
>
> I don't get stuck often enough to worry about it )
>
You're not trying hard enough then. . . . . . . ;-)

> ->> How about power to weight ?
> ->>
> ->Irrelevant. If you knew anything about off-roading you'd know it's
> torque to
> ->weight ratio that matters. All my off-roaders have more than
> 140lb-ft per
> ->tonne below 2500rpm. Who cares what the power output is?
>
> I guess it depends on if you like being big fat and heavy or lithe
> and light, there is no ideal for offroading as different terrains /
> obstacles require different things.
>
Once again, exactly my point - to define a proper off-roader, you must first
define the terrain it must cross, not just make blanket statements.

> ->> Funny your ideal off road car is what my Mrs uses every day for
> work
> ->> and Tesco's ;-)
> ->
> ->At least you've got someone to give you a tow home then. . . . . .
> . . .
> ->;-)
>
> On road is not the ideal environment for my proper offroaders.

That's OK if you off-road locally, I like to travel abroad to play in the
mud.

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

QrizB wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:38:02 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Geoff wrote:
>
>>> How about power to weight ?
>>>
>> Irrelevant. If you knew anything about off-roading you'd know it's
>> torque to weight ratio that matters. All my off-roaders have more
>> than 140lb-ft per tonne below 2500rpm. Who cares what the power
>> output is?
>
> Adding another bit here:
>
> 140lb-ft per tonne at 2500 rpm = 67 hp per tonne at 2500 rpm.
>
> http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question622.htm

Well if it's power that matters, not torque, may I respectfully suggest you
fit a 67hp 600cc motorbike engine to a 110 and see how far off-road you get.
.. . . . . . . . . ;-)

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

Geoff wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:00:16 GMT, [email protected] (QrizB) wrote:
>
> ->
> ->Adding another bit here:
> ->
> ->140lb-ft per tonne at 2500 rpm = 67 hp per tonne at 2500 rpm.
> ->
> Chris you have far too much time on your hands ;-)

We all must have too much time. . . . . . .

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:17:31 +0000, Geoff <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:00:16 GMT, [email protected] (QrizB) wrote:
>
>->
>->Adding another bit here:
>->
>->140lb-ft per tonne at 2500 rpm = 67 hp per tonne at 2500 rpm.
>->
>Chris you have far too much time on your hands ;-)

I'm meant to be decorating ...

--
QrizB

"On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

"Geoff" <[email protected]> wrote

>
> ->> How is permanent 4WD going to make any odds on a proper offroad
> ->> vehicle ? What's wrong with leaf springs ? Get more articulation for
> ->> less money. You don't mention approach, departure or ramp over angles.
> ->> Diff clearance.
> ->> C.O.G
> ->>
> ->> The most important thing a proper off road vehicle needs is the
> ->> correct nut behind the wheel ;-)
> ->
> ->This was the important bit of my post you snipped: ;-)
>
> You made only the one valid point so I thought I would snip it !! )
>
> ->'It's whatever you want it to be, my personal definition is:'
>
> Proper off road we are talking about not personal definition.
>
> ->To me permanent 4WD is important because I want 4WD all the time and
> ->sometimes I want lowbox on a road that is grippy. I like to drive many
miles
> ->to off-road in interesting places so leaf springs are out coz they are
> ->uncomfirtable on the way to the mud.
>
> Can't agree there, leafs are ok on road, done loads of 100+ mile road
trips on
> leafs not a problem, off road leafs are more uncomfortable but they can be
made
> into a trick suspension much cheaper and easier then coils.
>

I have a 88 Isuzu Bighorn/trooper with leaf rears and have taken it on 450Km
each way trips and never felt anything wrong with them. Love the Bighorn

rhys

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Charles Holder wrote:
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Geoff wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 16:12:19 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> ->Strong ladder chassis, solid axles both ends on coil springs with
> >>> lots of
> >>> ->travel, permanent 4WD, low box with deep low gearing, engine with
> >>> lots of
> >>> ->torque below 2000rpm and decent set of tyres.
> >>>
> >>> How is permanent 4WD going to make any odds on a proper offroad
> >>> vehicle ? What's wrong with leaf springs ? Get more articulation for
> >>> less money. You don't mention approach, departure or ramp over
> >>> angles. Diff clearance.
> >>> C.O.G
> >>>
> >>> The most important thing a proper off road vehicle needs is the
> >>> correct nut behind the wheel ;-)
> >>
> >> This was the important bit of my post you snipped: ;-)
> >>
> >> 'It's whatever you want it to be, my personal definition is:'
> >>
> >> To me permanent 4WD is important because I want 4WD all the time and
> >> sometimes I want lowbox on a road that is grippy. I like to drive
> >> many miles to off-road in interesting places so leaf springs are out
> >> coz they are uncomfirtable on the way to the mud.
> >>
> >> Like I said, everyone to their own idea about what a proper
> >> off-roader is. I mean some people think underpowered cart sprung jap
> >> hairdresser motors are cool . . . . . . . . .
> >>
> >> --
> >> Julian
> >> ---------
> >> = Pretentious Sig required =
> >
> > OK
> > What is "Underpowered"
>
> Depends on the gearing.
>
> --
> Julian
> ---------
> = Pretentious Sig required =
>
>
Many postings have possibly already answered my next question but.

We are not talking the North Face of the Eiger.

I use my 4X4 on muddy dirt tracks, in forested areas , ploughed fields. Of
road .

So lets take it one step at a time

Power to weight, Ground clearance, gear ratio / dif. Ratio, Tyre pattern .
Coil or leaf springs. Weather I am a prat. Is not the question.

Is a 2.0 V6 Under powered ?