Anyone else got snow? ❄️

Knappster said:

The first sign of snow brings out lots of 4x4 owners in camo trousers and lifted off-roaders with LED light bars wanting to tow people. How many have thought of the what-ifs though? Help takes many forms, not just towing others just because you can. I’m not a doom merchant, but I’d be very wary of us feeding the ambulance chasers.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I’m sure more pics will follow soon!

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There was a call out for recovery by my house. Fiat panda on its roof by the side of a byway.
Good how the crashed owner joined a 4x4 forum to ask for help instead of getting a proper person to do this.
And yep someone went out double sling onto the wheels & winched back over.

Idiots,steep hills & ice don’t mix.

Now back on to the thread…. Dog says not a lot of snow this morning

miktdish said:

It's fraught with problems to be fair.
With regards to equipment, on your car you need tow points, something solidly attached to the chassis, a jate ring or tow ring/ball solidly attached to the bumper/dumb irons.
I'm not a fan of using the tow ball on the back of the car, jate rings are (IMHO) a much better option.
The key is to ensure that the tow point on your car is solid and it's fixed to something solid, not a rusty chassis or rear cross member.

A 10M long, 4 ton endless roundsling would be ideal as they can be fixed and used in a variety of configurations.

Roundsling 4ton 10mtr (circ) - Damar Webbing Solutions Ltd

Application: Lifting, softer than duplex slings so better for delicate surfaces, manufactured to the BS EN1492: 2000 standard with test certificate Material:

slingsandstraps.co.uk

To attach to your car either a 5/8", 3.25T 'Bow' shackle or a soft shackle.
To attach to the load I would use a 2 ton duplex strap

Lifting Slings Duplex 2ton 2mtr - Damar Webbing Solutions Ltd

Lift loads of up to 2 tons with these polyester Duplex Lifting Slings, complete with reinforced eyes for added security. Use one or more of these slings with

slingsandstraps.co.uk

The strop can be past around something solid on the car you are pulling out (the load), the sling can pass through the eyes of the strop and then attach to your car using the shackle.
How you attach your sling will define the distance you are from the load. 5M (max) or 2.5M with the sling folded in half.

Both the sling and the strop will not break instead they will rip bits off the load or your car, it's therefore important that you connect both ends to something 'solid' and be aware of how much load you are applying.
Don't snatch, take up the tension and then apply a gentle pull. Nothing sudden.
Make sure no one is between the load and you. Pull in straight lines.

Some say you should always let the "customer" attach the rope to his car but I always have a conversation first along the lines of, "If this pull damages your car in any way I am not liable" ...
I have refused to do some as there was nowhere to attach the strap to and the car was well stuck in the mud.

These days I have a winch which makes life 50 Million times easier.

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Really interesting thanks (and apologies from me too for hijacking -10°C last night, plenty of snow / ice still about).

I was contemplating soft shackles with a kinetic recovery rope, something like one of these in the link but there are other combos.

GODIAG 1"×20ft Kinetic Recovery Rope (33000lbs) Heavy Duty Energy Tow Rope with 2 Soft Shackles, Offroad Power Stretch Snatch Rope for Truck Jeep Car ATV UTV Tractor https://amzn.eu/d/59suNiK

We've got a couple of Landys, the intended recovery beast is an ex-MoD 110 with a 1.6 transfer box and a properly built and fitted 3.5t towing setup (I must get it painted) we use on the croft. We can have a wee practice run with the 90.

One evening of snow here, Went out in the D max. Sorry the 90 is on Insa tyres and its caked in mud inside and out but I did get to compare the D-max on Geolander tyres vs 90 on BFG's and geolanders were great to be fair.

Towing with ropes well I'm a fan of a 24mm nylon rope. In fact we use them in Team Recovery competitions with the dreaded "Tow Ball" but be assured these are UK spec tow balls mounted with M16 HT bolts to an adequate Chassis member incorporating a rear spreader plate so no real chance of it failing even with the vast abuse and snatching they get during the competition as its a timed event. Its not a swan neck, or Australian/US spec piece of rubbish they class as tow balls.

Lifting strops IMO should be banned as everyone seems to use them incorrectly as tow ropes and they make a simple recovery hard work whereas a nylon 24mm rope or similar aids recovery by having some kinetic properties (note not a dedicated kinetic rope that has a short lifespan).

SteveMarquis said:

Really interesting thanks (and apologies from me too for hijacking -10°C last night, plenty of snow / ice still about).

I was contemplating soft shackles with a kinetic recovery rope, something like one of these in the link but there are other combos.

GODIAG 1"×20ft Kinetic Recovery Rope (33000lbs) Heavy Duty Energy Tow Rope with 2 Soft Shackles, Offroad Power Stretch Snatch Rope for Truck Jeep Car ATV UTV Tractor https://amzn.eu/d/59suNiK

We've got a couple of Landys, the intended recovery beast is an ex-MoD 110 with a 1.6 transfer box and a properly built and fitted 3.5t towing setup (I must get it painted) we use on the croft. We can have a wee practice run with the 90.

View attachment 333176


View attachment 333179

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I'd be surprised if that coated Dixon bate copy is actually stamped/rated at 3.5t. Not that it matters much for anything pre'98. I had to get a genuine Dixon Bate for a pickup for work. The rated ones are welded fully insode and out on the bars. There was a period that they were sold on Ebay and quality varied. I have built many years ago now..... Eek, A removable drop hitch that fits a nato on my 90 I'll find a link and add it.

Link here: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/removable-tow-hitch-build.106455/

Its done 15 years+ work towing 3.5+ trailer on my 90 and it undoes for trials comps in matter of seconds leaving a decen departure angle and lifts out the nato hitch meaning I can tow pretty much anything ball, pin, nato. Different length stays it can fit a discovery or whatever fitted with a nato and std chassis points for lower stays.

jai_landrover said:

I'd be surprised if that coated Dixon bate copy is actually stamped/rated at 3.5t. Not that it matters much for anything pre'98. I had to get a genuine Dixon Bate for a pickup for work. The rated ones are welded fully insode and out on the bars. There was a period that they were sold on Ebay and quality varied. I have built many years ago now..... Eek, A removable drop hitch that fits a nato on my 90 I'll find a link and add it.

Link here: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/removable-tow-hitch-build.106455/

Its done 15 years+ work towing 3.5+ trailer on my 90 and it undoes for trials comps in matter of seconds leaving a decen departure angle and lifts out the nato hitch meaning I can tow pretty much anything ball, pin, nato. Different length stays it can fit a discovery or whatever fitted with a nato and std chassis points for lower stays.

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The Height Adjuster has a 3,500kg rated capacity, the tow ball and pin are 3,500kg rated capacity and E11 rated (D Value = 17Kn). Mounted with m16 h/t bolts with appropriately graded plates, back plate and bracers to the jate ring points on a sound chassis.

As versatile as your setup is I think what I have is more than adequate for the loading although I'd admit If I could have found a forged tow hitch I'd have jumped at it. If I get to get myself a power hammer I might forge one as my hammer arm isn't up to it anymore.

It's over spec for pulling a livestock / cattle trailer which is the job it's intended for, thought I'd look to extend it's function, you imply it's less than adequate.

jai_landrover said:

One evening of snow here, Went out in the D max. Sorry the 90 is on Insa tyres and its caked in mud inside and out but I did get to compare the D-max on Geolander tyres vs 90 on BFG's and geolanders were great to be fair.

Towing with ropes well I'm a fan of a 24mm nylon rope. In fact we use them in Team Recovery competitions with the dreaded "Tow Ball" but be assured these are UK spec tow balls mounted with M16 HT bolts to an adequate Chassis member incorporating a rear spreader plate so no real chance of it failing even with the vast abuse and snatching they get during the competition as its a timed event. Its not a swan neck, or Australian/US spec piece of rubbish they class as tow balls.

Lifting strops IMO should be banned as everyone seems to use them incorrectly as tow ropes and they make a simple recovery hard work whereas a nylon 24mm rope or similar aids recovery by having some kinetic properties (note not a dedicated kinetic rope that has a short lifespan).

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Yes I've plenty of rope and could splice something suitable but wanted something I felt comfortably rated for the job and had that bit of stretch to take up the load. As I've said elsewhere, I believe the spec is up to the job.

I’m a big fan of using the nato hitch and 24mm rope where possible. The only reason if don’t have a drop late is because we compete in off-road trials driving and having a ground anchor behind puts you at a massive disadvantage aswell as no nato for towing the sankey trailers we have.

We use ropes often at private off-road events and I have a rope that’s probably 32 years old still gets used frequently. They last well if looked after.

We managed to get 2 fire engines and a couple of ambulances out of trouble back in 2008 from a snow covered close that they went down for a shout but could not get out as it was on a gradient when it last snowed bad around here.

We both Gibbo-Phil and myself got a nice letter from them saying thank you. It is now a prized possession.

I use a 5 tonne, 3 way locking carabiner made by Big Dan on the stuck cars tow ring, and a 5 meter lifting sling (or several looped together) to my tow hitch. Sometimes if the stuck cars tow ring is buried, a 1 meter sling can go around a rear axle or A frame and is clipped back to the main sling. Watch for sharp edges where you put it, but if it gets buggered, hey it's only a sling. There is almost zero chance of a 3 way locking crab coming off, even if it is dragged through the ground, and if it does at least you are facing away from it. Just rig it to pull how it should, don't side load them. No knots, no hitches, no shackle pins in the slush. Just keep your tonne ratings of all the slings the same, 3 tonnes is plenty I have found, the tow truck will wheel skid before you need more. I never ever tow from the front, apart from maybe shunting a caravan around on a front ball, it is just not where mine is designed to pull from with heavier loads. If the angle looks good, at my end the loop of the sling is just thrown over the ball hitch, or in the jaws of a Nato hitch if it is on the back. Really safe, no boings either direction, but if the sling comes off my hitch it is only nylon flying to the stuck car, not a heavy bit of steel. I have pulled a lot of cars out (and heaved over thousands of trees) using this method and never had a sling boing off my rear ball hitch. I have occasionally put a 1 meter sling around the vertical ball height adjustment frame, they do not last long unless you lightly radius the front corners to stop them cutting. Just keep bystanders well away before the tension goes on.

I keep several slings and a couple of these carabiners in my truck at all times as standard go everywhere kit. I am really done with hours of my life wasted trying to prise apart 20 - 25mm ropes from a jammed triple bowline.

Clip, done.

this morn

lupus said:

I use a 5 tonne, 3 way locking carabiner made by Big Dan on the stuck cars tow ring, and a 5 meter lifting sling (or several looped together) to my tow hitch. Sometimes if the stuck cars tow ring is buried, a 1 meter sling can go around a rear axle or A frame and is clipped back to the main sling. Watch for sharp edges where you put it, but if it gets buggered, hey it's only a sling. There is almost zero chance of a 3 way locking crab coming off, even if it is dragged through the ground, and if it does at least you are facing away from it. Just rig it to pull how it should, don't side load them. No knots, no hitches, no shackle pins in the slush. Just keep your tonne ratings of all the slings the same, 3 tonnes is plenty I have found, the tow truck will wheel skid before you need more. I never ever tow from the front, apart from maybe shunting a caravan around on a front ball, it is just not where mine is designed to pull from with heavier loads. If the angle looks good, at my end the loop of the sling is just thrown over the ball hitch, or in the jaws of a Nato hitch if it is on the back. Really safe, no boings either direction, but if the sling comes off my hitch it is only nylon flying to the stuck car, not a heavy bit of steel. I have pulled a lot of cars out (and heaved over thousands of trees) using this method and never had a sling boing off my rear ball hitch. I have occasionally put a 1 meter sling around the vertical ball height adjustment frame, they do not last long unless you lightly radius the front corners to stop them cutting. Just keep bystanders well away before the tension goes on.

I keep several slings and a couple of these carabiners in my truck at all times as standard go everywhere kit. I am really done with hours of my life wasted trying to prise apart 20 - 25mm ropes from a jammed triple bowline.

Clip, done.

View attachment 333317

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Have you any pics of you in action with this setup? The setup I am contemplating was to avoid the stories of flying shackles but you sound like you've got it sussed but with shackles intact.

Hi, no shackles. A lifting sling has a loop at each end and can be up to 10 meters long (if that is too short loop another one on). Put one loop on your ball hitch. Put the 5T carabiner on the other loop and clip it to the stuck cars tow eye if it is available. If it is not available, put a 1 meter sling around somewhere solid on the rear of the stuck car, and clip both loops of that to the carabiner. Done.

Industrial lifting slings come in tonne ratings, from 1 to 300 tonnes or more, and are always certified and traceable. The serial number is normally on a tag tucked away in one of the loops at one end, or if it is a continuous sling (round loop rather than a strap with a loop at each end) it will be stitched on or stamped somewhere. You can tell what the rating is normally by looking at the stitching in the middle, 1 line per tonne. I won't use a sling that does not have the lines of stitching, as for me the stitching says it is a certified proper industrial sling. In Europe and UK proper industrial lifting slings must have this stitching because it allows quick recognition of the load rating is part of the safety legislation.

Anyway, just to say, if you see a sling with 2 rows of stitching down the middle, you know it's a 2 tonne sling. Simples. I would say 3 tonne for towing out cars is ample for a Landrover of any size.

I find the strap type with 2 loops to be the most useful, with those carabiners. Super fast, less p*ssing around means less time spent lying on the ground fiddling with shackles and ropes etc. They are cheap too, and coil up flat well for storage. The continuous round slings are very good, but they have a soft loose outer sheath and are more prone to get torn, and they take up twice the space for the usable length when stored. Super fast, less p*ssing around means less time spent lying on the ground getting a line on the stuck car.

They are cheap too, and coil up flat well for storage.

Flat type.

3T, 6M about 30 quid.




Continuous loop type. Ditto.




I am not a certified tow guy, but in 35 years of working off road in all weathers I have never had a sling break or anything fly off either end. Every situation can be different and needs assessing (and backing up sometimes.) Always look for sharp edges near your attachment point, it is amazing how quickly even massively tough nylon ropes or straps can cut through if they are sliced even a little bit on something under load.

If you have doubts about a tow line hook or shackle, if you know how, you can rig a preventer that will catch flying hooks or chains etc mid air so they are controlled. Imagine you have your tow line all set up and you take up the strain, line tight but no real tension. Tie another substantial line to the bit you are worried about, and the other end of that line to a good solid bit near the tow ball, but leave 3 or 4 meters of slack lying on the ground (with no tangles). If the hook or whatever lets go, the second line will catch it.

Bear in mind this preventer line may not hold the stuck car you are towing out when the hook or shackle lets go, it just catches the big bit of steel flying through the air. You can also hitch a preventer line to big 20 - 25mm tow ropes if that is what you have, after a scuffed or dodgy bit, they work the same. Big long ropes will easily go through windscreens and injure occupants if they snap. A preventer is a last resort, as really if you have doubts about any part of your tow set up, you shouldn't use it, but any port in a storm.

Anyone got any snow chains? I have never had them on my Landy, but it would be good to have a set standing by in the barn.

Anyone have any recommendations? I have no idea.

lupus said:

Anyone got any snow chains? I have never had them on my Landy, but it would be good to have a set standing by in the barn.

Anyone have any recommendations? I have no idea.

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yes I have a pair of rudmatic 750's but we had some 900x16 ones only ever used in mud but it transformed the ability of the 90 with chains on in mud

lupus said:

I use a 5 tonne, 3 way locking carabiner made by Big Dan on the stuck cars tow ring, and a 5 meter lifting sling (or several looped together) to my tow hitch. Sometimes if the stuck cars tow ring is buried, a 1 meter sling can go around a rear axle or A frame and is clipped back to the main sling. Watch for sharp edges where you put it, but if it gets buggered, hey it's only a sling. There is almost zero chance of a 3 way locking crab coming off, even if it is dragged through the ground, and if it does at least you are facing away from it. Just rig it to pull how it should, don't side load them. No knots, no hitches, no shackle pins in the slush. Just keep your tonne ratings of all the slings the same, 3 tonnes is plenty I have found, the tow truck will wheel skid before you need more. I never ever tow from the front, apart from maybe shunting a caravan around on a front ball, it is just not where mine is designed to pull from with heavier loads. If the angle looks good, at my end the loop of the sling is just thrown over the ball hitch, or in the jaws of a Nato hitch if it is on the back. Really safe, no boings either direction, but if the sling comes off my hitch it is only nylon flying to the stuck car, not a heavy bit of steel. I have pulled a lot of cars out (and heaved over thousands of trees) using this method and never had a sling boing off my rear ball hitch. I have occasionally put a 1 meter sling around the vertical ball height adjustment frame, they do not last long unless you lightly radius the front corners to stop them cutting. Just keep bystanders well away before the tension goes on.

I keep several slings and a couple of these carabiners in my truck at all times as standard go everywhere kit. I am really done with hours of my life wasted trying to prise apart 20 - 25mm ropes from a jammed triple bowline.

Clip, done.

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I'd not use these for the simple reason a rope or strop wouldn't sit in them well would try to bunch causing an uneven pull on the eye. Much rather use a bow shackle, d shackle or these days a soft shackle. The Caribana's seem to be ideal for smaller dia rope that fits the throat dia.

lupus said:

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The 5 tonne carabiners are massive, ropes and sling eyes sit very well in them. We are talking pulling out of snow, not lifting with a crane right over buildings etc. Soft shackles also great, I agree.

Thanks, I will check out the Rudematic chains.

lupus said:

The 5 tonne carabiners are massive, ropes and sling eyes sit very well in them. We are talking pulling out of snow, not lifting with a crane right over buildings etc. Soft shackles also great, I agree.

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How does a carabiner stay together? I have not seen the design you use
Are You are putting tension on an open side?

Hicap phill said:

How does a carabiner stay together? I have not seen the design you use
Are You are putting tension on an open side?

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personally i'd prefer to rely on a D shackle, its only a minor inconvenience to have to screw the pin.
never seen a carabiner on a recovery truck, i'm sure thats for a reason.
theres no flat edge to spread the load of a strap either

i know you wont get seriously stuck in snow, like you might in mud where you need to break suction, but is a 3t strap enough? a landy weighs ~2t on its own? disco/rr is heavier again

Phill, google 'how does a three way locking carabiner work?'

You can buy oval (wide at both ends) carabiners. I have never had any danger whatsoever using a Big Dan as per photo above, (thinner neck at 1 end style on a sling eye / loop). In fact the carabiners are arborist equipment and designed to work with both ropes and slings. If you have the choice and it bothers you, turn the carabiner so that the tow eye on the stuck vehicle is at the thinner side of the carabiner, the sling loop on the wide part, but it won't make a jot of difference to the sling or the breaking strain.

I suggested 3 tonne slings as a general work-a-day tow line, which in a looooong time has been adequate. If a truck is 2 tonnes, as you tow it, a large proportion of that weight is still pressing downwards on the ground as you pull, becoming lighter on the ground the more vertical it is pulled until you have the entire vehicle in the air. A 2 tonne truck on flat asphalt in nuetral with the handbrake off needs what, 20Kg of horizontal force to move it? 30Kg? So what line pull are we talking about with a stuck car of say 1.5tonnes? It depends on how vertical you need to pull the stuck car, and obstacles / inclines between it and the pulling vehicle, and where the car has to go. I do not operate a heavy rescue service, I just have pulled all sizes of family cars out of snow drifts and embankments with a 200 TDi Hicap. I am not talking about die-hard balls out up the side of is crevases rescues, I am talking about pulling numpties out of piles of snow by the road. If it is too much I would let the professionals do it, knowing ones limits is after all the code to obey no? Maybe I never broke a 3T sling because of that.

I drive a Hilux 8 professionally for 8 months of the year, and have done so every year for the last 15 years, often in mud soup way up over the door sills, yes I get stuck, it can be a daily occurrence when the weather is bad, and yes I carry my system of tow line with me, and have been pulled out by swing shovels and other tracked machines with my tow line system, in claggy sucking clay, sand etc with zero scary moments.

I have also towed / pulled with many 24mm ropes (on road, off road and pulling trees over for 30 years) and got rapidly sick of wrapping and wrapping to lessen the knot pressure, even with triple bowlines as the end knot.. Splices are good of course, but a spliced rope fixes the usable length to one length only, but yeah, easy on, easy off. Ropes are expensive to replace if they get ragged through the ground..for example over a small ridge, as is likely with a stuck car that has gone off the road. A 50 meter long 24mm three strand nylon rope is around 300 quid? 500 for braided? I carry one but I would really not tow with it if I don't have to, it takes ages to mitigate rope damage before the tension goes on. I also do not like so much boing when pulling a car out, it is stored energy that is difficult to control, but again that is just a personal preference. I have used 24mm nylon for its elasticity when dropping big bits of tree earthward, the boing to a large degree stops it snapping (have had so much tension on sometimes, they reduce in diameter to about 10mm), but towing a car out is a different matter, I prefer less boing and more positive feedback. Towing longer distances on asphalt, sure, some spring is welcome.

We are all free to do as we please according to our experience and way of thinking, and use whichever equipment we as individuals see fit. With good judgment and thought out equipment I would think that there are many ways to skin the cat. Each will have its advantages as well as drawbacks. Mine is easy, quick, certified, traceable, adequate to the task, and proven by experience, it is what I carry and what I use. YMMV.