X3 to buy or not?

I've been in South Africa for over 2 years so I'm slightly out of touch with
things back in the UK. When we return in June 05 we need a family car and
one on the short list is a BMW X3 2.0d SE. I currently use a Jeep Cherokee
3.7 Sport Auto, which I like as I don't pay for fuel. I have no intention
of going off road in the UK, but like the high driving position and the poor
weather grip (X-drive?). Mostly, being a private buyer, the depreciation of
SUVs seems to beat similar estate and saloons (3 series, C class diesels)
into next week.

Is this car any good.
Some press reports say avoid due to poor ride quality.
Will it hold value as predicted, X5s and ML seem too. MLs get rubbished in
the press too.
Does anyone here drive this car and can give me first hand opinion.

TIA
Brian

P.S.
I you've never driven this car, or don't like it just because it's a soft
roader, then keep it to yourself please.

> Is this car any good.

Shame nobody's got an opinion as I would quite like to hear about
some experiences with the X3 too.. The two main criticisms of
it appear to be a) poor ride (but how poor is poor? are we talking
soapbox racer here?) and b) poor build quality although it has
good levels of kit and is apparently decent offroad.

I will give you my opinion anyway Brian From what you've
said, the new Discovery could be right up your street, or failing
that you could buy a Cherokee/X-Trail/Freelander/HRV/CRV and
have some handy change from what you would've spent on a
X3.

Cheers, Chris

"Chris Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Is this car any good.
>
> Shame nobody's got an opinion as I would quite like to hear about
> some experiences with the X3 too.. The two main criticisms of
> it appear to be a) poor ride (but how poor is poor? are we talking
> soapbox racer here?) and b) poor build quality although it has
> good levels of kit and is apparently decent offroad.
>
> I will give you my opinion anyway Brian From what you've
> said, the new Discovery could be right up your street, or failing
> that you could buy a Cherokee/X-Trail/Freelander/HRV/CRV and
> have some handy change from what you would've spent on a
> X3.


Aside from it not having a BMW badge, the X-Trail is by far a better drive,
especially in 136 Dci flavour.

You can have it in a 2 wheel drive version if you never intend to go offroad
too.

Tim..

Brian,

As it happens I had a test drive in an X3 (the 3.0i SE) last week and
not being a big fan of BMW I thought it lived down to expectations very
well. Up front I'll declare my love of the Discovery (I've owned 3
although I'm still to be convinced about the look of the new one) but as
my local BMW dealership offered me the chance I took it.

I drove the X3 all day on my own covering about 300 miles on motorway,
major A roads and some minor roads too. I also visited a client that
operates out of a farm building so got to "soft road" it a bit. Here are
my impressions:

Likes:
The seating position and the ease of reaching all the controls
Engine performance
Slickness of the gearbox

Dislikes:
Road noise (especially at motorway speeds)
Ride (okay on the motorway but too hard elsewhere particularly on the
farm track where it's lack of articulation was surprisingly noticeable)
Build quality and materials used (lots of plastic squeaks)

I doubt I'd ever buy one. IMO the current Volvo offerings are much
better vehicles, particularly the XC90.

HTH

Regards

Steve G



Brian wrote:
> I've been in South Africa for over 2 years so I'm slightly out of touch with
> things back in the UK. When we return in June 05 we need a family car and
> one on the short list is a BMW X3 2.0d SE. I currently use a Jeep Cherokee
> 3.7 Sport Auto, which I like as I don't pay for fuel. I have no intention
> of going off road in the UK, but like the high driving position and the poor
> weather grip (X-drive?). Mostly, being a private buyer, the depreciation of
> SUVs seems to beat similar estate and saloons (3 series, C class diesels)
> into next week.
>
> Is this car any good.
> Some press reports say avoid due to poor ride quality.
> Will it hold value as predicted, X5s and ML seem too. MLs get rubbished in
> the press too.
> Does anyone here drive this car and can give me first hand opinion.
>
> TIA
> Brian
>
> P.S.
> I you've never driven this car, or don't like it just because it's a soft
> roader, then keep it to yourself please.
>
>

Chris Burns ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

> Shame nobody's got an opinion as I would quite like to hear about
> some experiences with the X3 too..

We're not blind. Of *course* we wouldn't go near one.

> The two main criticisms of it appear to be a) poor ride (but how poor is
> poor? are we talking soapbox racer here?)

It's a BMW. What do you expect?

> and b) poor build quality

Are they built in the US, like the X5 and Zs?

> although it has good levels of kit and is apparently decent offroad.

That I doubt. If the ride's that poor, that doesn't exactly bode well for
axle articulation.

Thanks for the response Chris, you seemed to have generated more replies
than I managed.

As for the X3, let me explain where I'm coming from. The largest cost of
owning a new(ish) car these days is depreciation, so I wish to minimise this
as far as possible whilst still driving a car that I'm going to enjoy
driving and owning (BMW, high driving position, X drive 4x4, not a far east
copy, quality build).

Using the What Car depreciation index most 4x4, especially premium brands
appear to only loose 30% in the first 3 years, against say an estate car of
45%. This means that an X3 will cost me approx £203 per month in the first
36 months (just in depreciation), against a C class diesel of £300 p/m.
Interestingly a Mondeo ghia X TDCi works out at £220 using the same
calulation method, assuming you bought it via a car supermarket.

So providing the X3 isn't totally pants then it looks like a good buy. As
I'd go for the 2.0d SE then fuel ecconomy shouldn't be too bad either.
Obviously if the car's a lemon then the predicted depreciation index won't
be worth a fart.

I know this is a 4x4 group not a money saving group, but does anyone else
look at car buying this way? Or am I just being a tight git?

Brian

Brian ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

> I know this is a 4x4 group not a money saving group, but does anyone
> else look at car buying this way? Or am I just being a tight git?

How can anybody attempt to justify owning a new car by "saving money"?

First, you've got to factor in the £30k (a *****load* of money for
something that size) that's tied in to the car, and the loss of return on
that. Let's say 5%. There's another £5 grand to factor in over three
years.

Now bear in mind that the residuals on BMWs/Mercs and the like are
calculated against the list price of the standard spec without options. You
can't sell a used BMW or Merc that's not had the option list thumped hard
against it. They just don't sell. And the options aren't cheap.

Finally, factor in the likelihood of a backlash (or even just a slump in
used values because of oversupply and the fashionability fading) against
"lifestyle SUVs" like the X3 in the next couple of years.

Unless you're leasing, in which case you *know* what it's going to cost but
have a completely different can of worms with condition and mileage
potentially biting you, don't bank on the residuals.

If you want to drive something newish *and* save money, buy something 6-12
months old that's lost a big chunk of the original list price - and that
means something less "fashionable" and "bling". If you want an X3, fine -
your choice - but don't try and justify it as "saving money".

Still, at least the X3 isn't American like the X5 and ML, it's Austrian-
built, in the same Steyr-Puch factory as the Jeeps. Steyr-developed, too.

Adrian wrote:
> Brian ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> were saying :
>
>
>>I know this is a 4x4 group not a money saving group, but does anyone
>>else look at car buying this way? Or am I just being a tight git?
>
>
> How can anybody attempt to justify owning a new car by "saving money"?
>
> First, you've got to factor in the £30k (a *****load* of money for
> something that size) that's tied in to the car, and the loss of return on
> that. Let's say 5%. There's another £5 grand to factor in over three
> years.
>
> Now bear in mind that the residuals on BMWs/Mercs and the like are
> calculated against the list price of the standard spec without options. You
> can't sell a used BMW or Merc that's not had the option list thumped hard
> against it. They just don't sell. And the options aren't cheap.
>
> Finally, factor in the likelihood of a backlash (or even just a slump in
> used values because of oversupply and the fashionability fading) against
> "lifestyle SUVs" like the X3 in the next couple of years.
>
> Unless you're leasing, in which case you *know* what it's going to cost but
> have a completely different can of worms with condition and mileage
> potentially biting you, don't bank on the residuals.
>
> If you want to drive something newish *and* save money, buy something 6-12
> months old that's lost a big chunk of the original list price - and that
> means something less "fashionable" and "bling". If you want an X3, fine -
> your choice - but don't try and justify it as "saving money".
>
> Still, at least the X3 isn't American like the X5 and ML, it's Austrian-
> built, in the same Steyr-Puch factory as the Jeeps. Steyr-developed, too.

ignore the badge and buy a year old diesel x-trail.

Brian wrote:
> I've been in South Africa for over 2 years so I'm slightly out of touch with
> things back in the UK. When we return in June 05 we need a family car and
> one on the short list is a BMW X3 2.0d SE. I currently use a Jeep Cherokee
> 3.7 Sport Auto, which I like as I don't pay for fuel. I have no intention
> of going off road in the UK, but like the high driving position and the poor
> weather grip (X-drive?). Mostly, being a private buyer, the depreciation of
> SUVs seems to beat similar estate and saloons (3 series, C class diesels)
> into next week.
>
> Is this car any good.
> Some press reports say avoid due to poor ride quality.
> Will it hold value as predicted, X5s and ML seem too. MLs get rubbished in
> the press too.
> Does anyone here drive this car and can give me first hand opinion.
>
> TIA
> Brian
>
> P.S.
> I you've never driven this car, or don't like it just because it's a soft
> roader, then keep it to yourself please.
>
>
Certainly reject the ML had one for 6 months and having to take sea
sickness pills every time I drove in it did my head in! Must admit
havent tried the BMW's but have you thought about volkswagons Touareg
test drove one recently and was very impressed pity I couldnt convince
the wife to have on she still prefers her freelander arrrrr

"chrisu" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Adrian wrote:
> > Brian ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> > were saying :
> >
> >
> >>I know this is a 4x4 group not a money saving group, but does anyone
> >>else look at car buying this way? Or am I just being a tight git?
> >
> >
> > How can anybody attempt to justify owning a new car by "saving money"?
> >
> > First, you've got to factor in the £30k (a *****load* of money for
> > something that size) that's tied in to the car, and the loss of return
on
> > that. Let's say 5%. There's another £5 grand to factor in over three
> > years.
> >
> > Now bear in mind that the residuals on BMWs/Mercs and the like are
> > calculated against the list price of the standard spec without options.
You
> > can't sell a used BMW or Merc that's not had the option list thumped
hard
> > against it. They just don't sell. And the options aren't cheap.
> >
> > Finally, factor in the likelihood of a backlash (or even just a slump in
> > used values because of oversupply and the fashionability fading) against
> > "lifestyle SUVs" like the X3 in the next couple of years.
> >
> > Unless you're leasing, in which case you *know* what it's going to cost
but
> > have a completely different can of worms with condition and mileage
> > potentially biting you, don't bank on the residuals.
> >
> > If you want to drive something newish *and* save money, buy something
6-12
> > months old that's lost a big chunk of the original list price - and that
> > means something less "fashionable" and "bling". If you want an X3,
fine -
> > your choice - but don't try and justify it as "saving money".
> >
> > Still, at least the X3 isn't American like the X5 and ML, it's Austrian-
> > built, in the same Steyr-Puch factory as the Jeeps. Steyr-developed,
too.
>
> ignore the badge and buy a year old diesel x-trail.

Lots of people are telling me this. Is this based on price, driving, 4x4
ability or all. Either way I'll look in to it.

Brian wrote:
> "chrisu" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Adrian wrote:
>>
>>>Brian ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
>>>were saying :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know this is a 4x4 group not a money saving group, but does anyone
>>>>else look at car buying this way? Or am I just being a tight git?
>>>
>>>
>>>How can anybody attempt to justify owning a new car by "saving money"?
>>>
>>>First, you've got to factor in the £30k (a *****load* of money for
>>>something that size) that's tied in to the car, and the loss of return
>
> on
>
>>>that. Let's say 5%. There's another £5 grand to factor in over three
>>>years.
>>>
>>>Now bear in mind that the residuals on BMWs/Mercs and the like are
>>>calculated against the list price of the standard spec without options.
>
> You
>
>>>can't sell a used BMW or Merc that's not had the option list thumped
>
> hard
>
>>>against it. They just don't sell. And the options aren't cheap.
>>>
>>>Finally, factor in the likelihood of a backlash (or even just a slump in
>>>used values because of oversupply and the fashionability fading) against
>>>"lifestyle SUVs" like the X3 in the next couple of years.
>>>
>>>Unless you're leasing, in which case you *know* what it's going to cost
>
> but
>
>>>have a completely different can of worms with condition and mileage
>>>potentially biting you, don't bank on the residuals.
>>>
>>>If you want to drive something newish *and* save money, buy something
>
> 6-12
>
>>>months old that's lost a big chunk of the original list price - and that
>>>means something less "fashionable" and "bling". If you want an X3,
>
> fine -
>
>>>your choice - but don't try and justify it as "saving money".
>>>
>>>Still, at least the X3 isn't American like the X5 and ML, it's Austrian-
>>>built, in the same Steyr-Puch factory as the Jeeps. Steyr-developed,
>
> too.
>
>>ignore the badge and buy a year old diesel x-trail.
>
>
> Lots of people are telling me this. Is this based on price, driving, 4x4
> ability or all. Either way I'll look in to it.
>
>
what car mid size 4x4 of the year for the past 3 years. dynamically and
price wise way ahead of the x3. the x3 is for those who like the badge.

my $0.02.

"Adrian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Brian ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> were saying :
>
>> I know this is a 4x4 group not a money saving group, but does anyone
>> else look at car buying this way? Or am I just being a tight git?
>
> How can anybody attempt to justify owning a new car by "saving money"?
>
> First, you've got to factor in the £30k (a *****load* of money for
> something that size) that's tied in to the car, and the loss of return on
> that. Let's say 5%. There's another £5 grand to factor in over three
> years.
>

I am another one that attempts to buy based somewhat on depreciation. My
last one, an X5 was a tremendous buy and cost less in depreciation than a
mid range focus over two years.
Initial cost is not a consideration of mine within reason and if a car holds
its value exceptionally well it will be sold but if not then it is kept
until convenient. this way my family have a fleet of quite high profile
vehicles of varying ages.


> Now bear in mind that the residuals on BMWs/Mercs and the like are
> calculated against the list price of the standard spec without options.
> You
> can't sell a used BMW or Merc that's not had the option list thumped hard
> against it. They just don't sell. And the options aren't cheap.
>
> Finally, factor in the likelihood of a backlash (or even just a slump in
> used values because of oversupply and the fashionability fading) against
> "lifestyle SUVs" like the X3 in the next couple of years.

X5's are ten a penny around here so my thought is that the residual bubble
must burst at some point, hence I got rid of it.


>
> Unless you're leasing, in which case you *know* what it's going to cost
> but
> have a completely different can of worms with condition and mileage
> potentially biting you, don't bank on the residuals.
>
> If you want to drive something newish *and* save money, buy something 6-12
> months old that's lost a big chunk of the original list price - and that
> means something less "fashionable" and "bling". If you want an X3, fine -
> your choice - but don't try and justify it as "saving money".
>
> Still, at least the X3 isn't American like the X5 and ML, it's Austrian-
> built, in the same Steyr-Puch factory as the Jeeps. Steyr-developed, too.

My Mercedes ML was Steyer built and was just as shabbily finished as the US
built ones.

Huw

Brian <[email protected]> wrote:

> As for the X3, let me explain where I'm coming from. The largest cost of
> owning a new(ish) car these days is depreciation, so I wish to minimise this
> as far as possible whilst still driving a car that I'm going to enjoy
> driving and owning (BMW, high driving position, X drive 4x4, not a far east
> copy, quality build).

Yes, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that the X3 is crap. It's
positioned with regard to 4x4s as the Alfa Sportwagon is to estates.

As others have said buying a new car isn't going to save you money, no
matter what brand you buy it's goign to cost you a thick wedge to buy a
brand new car. Most of the depreciation is in the first year, that will
see you lost about a third of the value of the car in year 1. If people
wake up to how ****e the X3 is, that could increase to as much as 50%.

You haven't actually said too clearly why you want a 4x4. There are good
reasons for preferrign one over other vehicles - living in the country,
hauling largish loads, living north of the border (Scottish, not M25) or
above 1,000 feet would all push someone in the direction of choosing a
4x4 over other vehicles. In most of these stakes the X3 and particularly
the underpowered 2.0 diesel (do you really want to pay 91p/litre for
your fuel?) is going to be a pointy, jagged, razor edge shape in a
sensitive, hole lined with pain receptors.

The Nissan is an excellent vehicle, nice compromise between on and off
road and with a very practical interior. Big, boxy, fold all the seats
down and the surface is wipe-clean. If you want 4x4 for some illusion of
security (and the advantages are mostly illusory unless one really want
to get into slippy stuff) then a Subaru Forester is a damn good choice,
as is a Legacy.

If it's simply driving position, buy a minibus or something.

Personally, if a normal saloon is a possibility and you don't really
need the 4x4 option you would do better with something like a BMW
5-series or a Volvo. But never new, and avoid "demonstrators" as well.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Huw (hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

> My Mercedes ML was Steyer built and was just as shabbily finished as
> the US built ones.

I thought all MLs were 'merkin?

"Adrian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Huw (hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk) gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying :
>
>> My Mercedes ML was Steyer built and was just as shabbily finished as
>> the US built ones.
>
> I thought all MLs were 'merkin?

They are now, the production line being refitted to assemble the X3. Up
until around 18 months ago the majority of diesel engine ML's were assembled
by Magna Steyr. They also assemble diesel Daimler-Chrysler/Jeep Grand
Cherokee diesel models.

Huw

"chrisu" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Brian wrote:
> > "chrisu" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Adrian wrote:
> >>
> >>>Brian ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
> >>>were saying :
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I know this is a 4x4 group not a money saving group, but does anyone
> >>>>else look at car buying this way? Or am I just being a tight git?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>How can anybody attempt to justify owning a new car by "saving money"?
> >>>
> >>>First, you've got to factor in the £30k (a *****load* of money for
> >>>something that size) that's tied in to the car, and the loss of return
> >
> > on
> >
> >>>that. Let's say 5%. There's another £5 grand to factor in over three
> >>>years.
> >>>
> >>>Now bear in mind that the residuals on BMWs/Mercs and the like are
> >>>calculated against the list price of the standard spec without options.
> >
> > You
> >
> >>>can't sell a used BMW or Merc that's not had the option list thumped
> >
> > hard
> >
> >>>against it. They just don't sell. And the options aren't cheap.
> >>>
> >>>Finally, factor in the likelihood of a backlash (or even just a slump
in
> >>>used values because of oversupply and the fashionability fading)
against
> >>>"lifestyle SUVs" like the X3 in the next couple of years.
> >>>
> >>>Unless you're leasing, in which case you *know* what it's going to cost
> >
> > but
> >
> >>>have a completely different can of worms with condition and mileage
> >>>potentially biting you, don't bank on the residuals.
> >>>
> >>>If you want to drive something newish *and* save money, buy something
> >
> > 6-12
> >
> >>>months old that's lost a big chunk of the original list price - and
that
> >>>means something less "fashionable" and "bling". If you want an X3,
> >
> > fine -
> >
> >>>your choice - but don't try and justify it as "saving money".
> >>>
> >>>Still, at least the X3 isn't American like the X5 and ML, it's
Austrian-
> >>>built, in the same Steyr-Puch factory as the Jeeps. Steyr-developed,
> >
> > too.
> >
> >>ignore the badge and buy a year old diesel x-trail.
> >
> >
> > Lots of people are telling me this. Is this based on price, driving,
4x4
> > ability or all. Either way I'll look in to it.
> >
> >
> what car mid size 4x4 of the year for the past 3 years. dynamically and
> price wise way ahead of the x3. the x3 is for those who like the badge.
>
> my $0.02.

probably the Subaru Forester although its bull nose looks are not to
everyone's taste it certainly performs and handles
well according to the moterati journalists plus you are not starting at 30k
so immediately you have a saving around 8k your 3 year depreciation works
out at £281 per month
at http://www.whatcar.co.uk/DepreciationIndex.asp personally I prefer the
Legacy outback but its a slightly different animal
Derek

According to "Honest John" in the Telegraph, X-Trail diesels are
holding their value better at auction than BMW 3-series diesel at
auction.

Big Ron <[email protected]> wrote:

> According to "Honest John" in the Telegraph, X-Trail diesels are
> holding their value better at auction than BMW 3-series diesel at
> auction.

"Honest John" is a brainless ****. If you believe him, I have a bridge
you would like to buy.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Steve Firth wrote:
> Big Ron <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>According to "Honest John" in the Telegraph, X-Trail diesels are
>>holding their value better at auction than BMW 3-series diesel at
>>auction.
>
>
> "Honest John" is a brainless ****.

Would you care to ellaborate slightly on that? Some evidence perhaps to
support your theory? I would have thought that at least, his
observations of auctions were fairly factual?

Martin

Martin Sapsed <[email protected]> wrote:

> Steve Firth wrote:
> > Big Ron <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>According to "Honest John" in the Telegraph, X-Trail diesels are
> >>holding their value better at auction than BMW 3-series diesel at
> >>auction.
> >
> >
> > "Honest John" is a brainless ****.
>
> Would you care to ellaborate slightly on that?

"Honest John" is a brainless witless ****.

> Some evidence perhaps to support your theory?

Oh do take a flying **** you tedious prick.

> I would have thought that at least, his
> observations of auctions were fairly factual?

I doubt he's been to an auction in years, if ever. What he knows about
cars could be written on the back of a postage stamp and still leave
room for his entire autobiography.

--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759