where to start

budders said:

Just got myself my first land rover which is a good runner and fairly tidy but where do i start in making it a beter truck,ive not got a clue about landys so any help would be great,its a b reg 90 with 120,000 miles on the clock so things may be geting tired.thanks

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Teflon said:

OK, well first of all, if its your first landy, can be pretty confident saying that the car is almost certainly more competant than you, and should handle almost anything you choose to chuck it at, and if you get stuck, it will be your inexperience at fault NOT the landy's off-road-ability!
In fact, as suggested, they way they come from the factory, is pretty darn capable, and often far more so than even long suffering landy loons driving.....
Took a mate to an P&P the other day; he has a Rangie, and insisted he couldn't take it off road, becouse he hadn't got a lift kit, mud tyres or even a steering guard.
Took him round the course in my street stock Rangie, and he realised his pre-conseptions were a little misplaced, as we went from seeing a hill infront of us, to sky filling the widscreen, to mud, and then another hill!
Letting the V8 cool down, watched some lads in tricked up Disco's tackle a sticky climb, a Toyota and a pair of PJ's had eventually given up on.
First Disco eventually made it after half a dozen attempts; second Disco 'cheated' took a run and blasted a new path up the hill.
"Yeah!" Says my mate, "But you'd NOT be able to do stuff like THAT!" he suggested.
"Get in" I said!
"NO WAY!" He replied, "I dont want to be in it when you roll it!" And went and stood at the top to watch me try.
Eventually made it on fourth attempt......
Then to pig us all off, little series one, bimbles along and bounces STRAIGHT up it, first time!
'Modified' doesn't necesserily mean 'better'.
Do NOT think that to venture off road, you NEED all the 'goodies' you see on the Landys in the mags. They are FAR from essential, and in a lot of cases, little more than fasion accessories!
Lift kits; usually one of the first 'must have' items on the shopping list, becouse, well, EVERYONE knows you NEED one to go off-road.... dont they?
Well, that's what the belief the aftermarketing people would like to perpetuate; but actually no.
There's actually only two or three reasons for fitting a lift kit; extra suspension travel; and added clerence under the car, and POSSIBLY a bit more clerance under the wheel-arches for bigger wheels.
what does that do for you?
Well, the added ride height means that you can ride over bigger obsticles without them scraping on stuff hanging under the car.......
In technical terms, people talk about approach, break-out and departure angles, which is basically how much clerance there is at the front for going up a steep hill without just bumping into it with the front bumper, how big a bolder you can go over without scraping the chassis in teh middle, or how steep a hill you can 'ramp' before the tail digs in the ground as you go up it. And a a lift will give you a bit more of those commodities.
Suspension travel; useful stuff to have; and the measure is how much 'articulation' you get, or how high one wheel can go up a rock, while the one on the other end of the axle drops in a hole. More travel, SHOULD mean more articulation.
BUT! Lifting teh vihicle on its springs, means it's taller; this means more wind resistance, so less speed, and less ecconomy, and more difficult getting into multi-story car-parks or carparks with a hight restriction barrier.
Worse, though, lift increases the centre of gravity, so the car rolls more on corners; worse still, land-rovers have long travel suspension, and suffer badly from 'roll steer' where teh body rolling on the suspension changes the steering geometry or the effective length of the steering rods, making the car 'steer' as it leans on the suspension.
Give it MORE suspension movement, more roll steer you are going to get; add the higher centre of gravity and you get more roll, as well as more roll steer, and as peopl say, things handle like a blamange on the road.
Consequently MOST lift kits have stiffer springs, which means they sit higher, but DONT actually offer as much added suspension travel as lift heigt suggests, and becouse the spring is less 'giving' even though they may have a bit more travel, becouse they are harder, you wont actually see it, and can effectively REDUCE the amount of articulation you get!
So, on THAT particular count; the 'improvement' might not ACTUALLY be one; its simply a shift in compromise, making the vehicle more off-road biased, and THEN only if done well, to get the actual 'benefits' hoped for.
May MANy other mods are similar; they dont always work as intended, and even if they do, they dont NECESSERILY make the car better, just change what its best at.
So, advice is, until you actually encounter a 'problem', leave the thing as it is; standard.
and when you DO encounter a problem, STOP and think long and hard about the problem, and before making rash assumptions like the reason you 'bellied out' over a rock, was becouse you didn't have enough ground clerance, as yourself whether the reason you got stuck MIGHT have just been becouse you tried to drive OVER that rock, rather than around it!
Biggest 'Improvement' you can make to almost ANY vehicle..... is fit a better driver!
On which basis; some 'off-road' or advanced driving lessons are POSSIBLY the biggest thing you can do to make your landy 'better'......
After that; first rule of racing; before looking FOR standard, make sure you got as much as you should AS standard!
Old cars get tired. As comment, not much point having brilliant suspension set up, if your engine wont start!
The old racing analogy was to point at the Lada rally cars; they may not be 'fancy' old hads would quip; but they win more often than the lads with Suped up Escorts that keep breaking down.
So, moralising over; lets gert pactical.
B Reg 90.
First up, No, that shouldn't have a disc braked back axle; thats come off a later 90 or possibly a Range Rover. Common 'Upgrade' and easier to service the brakes, but other wise no great change; axles are the same, apart from the brakes on the end!
NEXT; 120K Miles. On What engine?
That early, pretty sure it should be a 2.5 Petrol or NON Turbo Diesel.
If its the 2.5NAD, performance will at best be 'adequete', you MIGHT see 70mph out of it occassionally IF its in good fettle, but at 120K miles, liklihood of that isn't great.
If Petrol, then the 2.5P is reasonably spritely, if not earth shattering, and quite a durable motor; but again, at 120K Miles, would probably NOT be at its best.
Either would probably benefit from at least a pretty good service, if not a complete overhaul.
But that's assuming the standard engine, and not a retro fitted take-out from something else; could be almost anything in there, and not unheard of for 2.5's to be replaces with older series III 2.25 engines, either becouse they are cheaper than a reconditioned item, or to do a cheap 'conversion'... usually from petrol to Diesel.
Other common ones are later 2.5TD engines, or more recent 200TDi engines from a Discovery. V8's were not fitted to the 90 that early, only the 110, but again, they have found there way into early 90 engine bays, either from 110's or more often Range Rovers.
Whatever the engine, if it's 'OK' and you are happy with the fuel consumption..... OK, can HANDLE the fuel consumption, and performance on offer, then probably best not to think about an engine convcersion.
Most Land rover engines, though, can be incredibly revitalised by a new cam-chain or timing belt, whether pertrol or diesel, and a good service, getting the ignition / diesel timing spot on, and the carburation properly tuned. Diesel engines often also suffer neglected injectors, as they are a tad expensive, but for around £100, those can really put some sparkle back into a lazy old motor.....
Provided of course the thing isn't burning huge amounts of opil past worn rings or bores, or eating its own main bearings!
So, those would be things I'd investigate.
Brakes; probably sooner. Again, a good service, new pads, if little else, but calipers prone to siezing, particularly on the back, where they see less load, and more crud between pad changes.
Brake lines, also worth a look at; original 'hard' brake pipes are steel, and tend to rust, a 'niggling' MOT fail point. They are also under the car, and collect crud, helping them rust, and unfortunately not seen very often so get neglected as out of site out of mind.
Flex hoses, are rubber, and with age relax. So re-plumbing brakes is a great way of getting them working really well and avoiding hassle at MOT time.
Next up, steering. Landies have a VERY old fasioned steering arrangement using a 'recirculating ball, worm and sector' steering box. Basically a big screw winding a quarter cog backwards and forewards with a lever attached, pushing and pulling rods!
Lots of links in that system, and its not very 'possitive' to begin with, as mentioned becouse of the long travel suspension; but gets worse with age as the steering box gets worn, and all the links on the rods get sloppy.
You dont say if you have power steering; on a 90 that early, I DONT think it was standard, and you should have the early Range Rover, non assisted steering box. Not looked at these recently, but think they are a bit rare and consequently expensive; they can however be reconditioned, and THINK that is more reasonable, probably around the £100 mark at a guess.
Some-one more knowledgeable on that one may be able to say better, or even tell you if they can have the 'back-lash' adjusted out of them by some user maiintenence.
But, putting that to one side; overhauling the rest of the steering is a pretty easy and reletively cheap job; I think there are four ball-joints in the system, and they can be replaced for about £20, and make a big difference.
Other bit worth looking at, is a lot more ardiouse, and thats the swivils on teh front axle, or the 'chrome balls'
These usually rust or rust and 'pit' from stone strike, and then the seal that wipes accross them wears on the rust and pitting, and they start to leak.
The common 'botch' here, to get a car through an MOT is to drain the swivil of oil, & bung in a bit of graphite grease, which is fine, as long as you keep chucking in graphite grease at regular intervals, or the CV joints fail, and in either case, the upper steering pin buish suffers a lack of lube and wears out quicker.
Overhauling the front axle is NOT a quick, cheap or easy operation; swivils are about £120 to renew, and while you are doing the job, advice is to renew all teh steering bushes, and set the swivil 'pre-load' via shims (fiddly), replace the CV joints, and the hub bearings and ALL seals.
In total, that can be a £500 job, to dso it 'right'. If you aren't seeing any partiticular problems though, dont worry about it; but as an 'improvement' definitely one worth thinking about. You can pick up second hand axles pretty cheaply, but they often suffer the same afflictions, but as a 'mini-project' overhauling an axle at your leisure for later fitment, could be fun, and worth the doing.
Meanwhile, Hubs......
Another thing that is out of site and out of mind; and they often dont get looked at until a bearing actually colapses, and THEN its often only found becouse of a braking fault, as the brake caliper is holding the hub on teh stub axle via the disk!
BUT, very simple arrangement, and properly and periodically 'adjusted' bearings can last a very long time. All you need is a £5 'Hub-Nut' Spanner; huge thing; a few basic tools, a new drive flange gasket and a new hub seal...oh and a pot of grease. Nice afternoons work, and you can have all four wheels riding nice and true on the axles.
And lastly, TYRES.
No car will ride well on bad rubber; and when it comes to Landies, becouse tyres are so expensive, theres a lot of bad rubber out there.
Main thing though, is whether they tyres are 'adequete' for your needs. And again, you dont NEED big rugged tread tyres to head off-road. For a lot of off-roading a good All Terrain tyre is more than good enough for most conditions, except REALLY deep mud, and even there, I've seen people on full muds making heavy weather of it where some people on street slicks have 'managed'....
As a newbie; my advice is DONT overestimate the ruggedness of tyre you need. A tamer tyre has a lot of advantages, particularly on the road, where they are quieter, more predictable, offer better handling and grip, and better mpg. Off road, a 'tame' tyre will cope with smooth packed eart as well as anything, sand and gravel pretty well, and rocks probably better than more rugged tyres.
As siad, its only in the more 'gloopy' and slippy conditions that the extra bit of a more rugged tyre pays; BUT for a newbie; a tyre that slips sooner has two advantages; FIRST it wont let you get as FAR into trouble as a more capable tyre; second, you'll get th car sliding earlier, when you are probably in a lot less risk of doing any damage, and learn how a car 'feels' on the limit of traction, and how it behaves on slippy surfaces, and that can start fine tune your driving to find traction.
So, like mnost other stuff, unless your tyres are particularly rough, bald, cut up, or the wrong size or shape, dont be tempted to change them JSUT for something more 'off-road' biased, you probably dont need to and would be better of NOT doing so.
Other stuff, old Landies often benefit from a bit of 'detailing'. Often a lot of old accessories been fitted and removes, so wiring that can be tidied up; brackets removed, or holes filled.
Seats get raggy, as do carp[ets or mats, so theres ALWAYS stuff like that that could be done.
As for accessories?
Well, radios are a favourite; as with any car, but thats to your taste and pres#ference; though sound proofing in a Landy is not great, nor are the 'acoustics' so high end Hi-Fi is pretty much wasted!
But, in that vein, adding sound-proofing can be helpful, and theres a lot of advice on how to do that on a budget; long time ago I found a cheap camping mat in Netto, and after my lad had dumped it in the hall after a school trip, looking for 'something' to stop a panel clattering, appropriated it and cut it up! That's now become one of the bits of 'lore' preserved on these forums!
Something you may like to think about if you fancy any green-laning is a CB Radio; they're neat, and for a newbie on a group run, being able to talk, or at least listen to, the group leader car to car, can be a big confidence boost, meaning less nerves wondering whats going on, or what you should do...... great 'toy' too, and can really 'add' to the experience.
Roof lights?!
Fasion accessory of only margibnal use in this country! Unless you are so ardent a green-laner you go out on night expeditions; but that's NOT something I'd advocate a newbie try until they had some experience reading the terrain in clear day-light.
Snorkle? another fasion accessory, in many cases. You'll swamp your ignition or drown your starter, or flood your footwells LONG before you hydraulic your engine, and get close to needing one, and again, as a Newbie, more likely to do that from numpy driving choices rather than exceeding the cars capabilities.
Bull-Bar / A-Bar? The debate rages; but I have one in the back garden. I dont have anything against them, I'm not on the side of the pople that think they are a menace to society; pedestrians infront of a two ton Land rover dont stand much of a chance of getting away unscales bull-bar or no; but then they serve little or no practical purpose either; people SAY they protect the front of teh car, but IF they are strong enough to protect iot from a big bang, just means they bend the chassis instead. Most aren't attached that well, they are bolted to the bumper mounts, and in an impact, they are actually more likely to bend or break thier mounts and simply spread impact over the whoile front of the car! As for the suggestion they 'deflect' branch strike and such 'off-road'...... sorry, they MAY deflect it from the front, but those brances are still going to scrape over the top or down the side, so what are they really saving?
and insurance companies, dont like them, while from next year, there is going to be a big furoar over them come MOT time when the regs change.
winch?
Yeah; can be useful, but not essential by a long way. winch bumpers are not the greatest things either, and mountying a winch on a winch bumper is often a huge temptation for a tow-rag to come along and remove the four bolts holding either winch and buper to car, or winch to bumper and be off with them!
Also not much use unless you have something solid to winch from, and can be lethal if you dont know what you are doing or have the right 'kit' to attach to other vehicles or make secure anchorages.
For a newbie; best bits of recovery kit are a few shackles, particularly one you can clamp round the tow ball on the back, and one or tow on recovery points on the front.
For which, simplest options are either a steering guard with recovery eyes; Paddocks I think do the cheapest one of those for about £90, or a pair of 'Jate' Rings which handg from the bumper mounts, and are about £20 a pair.
Speering guard, is PROBABLY one of the more useful accessories for a newbie. Getting stuff 'wrong' you are going to clobber stuff, no matter what you got; so having some protection is worth while.
Diff-guards, are about £15 each and CAN be helpful, that is one of the things most likely to get clonked as it IS the lowest part of the car apart from the wheels.....
BUT they collect crud, and THAT can see both diff-guard and diff pan rot out more quickly.... if fitted make sure you pay attension to that area and clean regularly; possibly removing guards to clean properly.
Elsewhise, clean, polish, tidy, service, and ENJOY!
as you use it, you'll start to find out the stuff you need most.

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gemsdad said:

bloody hell teflon thats the longest answer i have seen on the forum,well put though,very informative.

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