Texas Rav4 in mountains of Colorado a bad idea?

Never needed chains, but was running those big float tires for
Utah offroading. Now I just run a Grand Cherokee with Alpin
studless and carry 2 sets of S-cable chains. Never needed the
chains or the shovel--yet. If those aren't good enough I am
now old enough I would probably rethink the need to keep going
as opposed to a day or so in a nice warm hotel somewhere.



Will Honea proclaimed:

> Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
> to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
> snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
> going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:26:23 UTC "Franko" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Baja Bug? I've had that idea in my head for a while -- have
>>my eye on an old Beetle in a neighbor's lot... hmmm.
>>
>>As for our 6200 lb Tahoe, PLENTY of stopping room needed but
>>the 4 wheel ABS does help a lot. Our RWD sub (7200 lb) has
>>no ABS so I manually pump the brake pedal 30 times a
>>second...
>>
>>"Lon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>In deep snow, ground clearance is more important than
>>
>>traction, if the
>>
>>>snow is the nice sticky wet packy stuff. In powder,
>>
>>traction plus just
>>
>>>enough weight to keep up the traction is usually good
>>
>>enough. Best
>>
>>>snow car I ever owned was a 427 Impala with chains....
>>
>>except when in
>>
>>>really deep sloppy packable snow that would literally lift
>>
>>the
>>
>>>front end off the ground enough to make it stupidly
>>
>>dangerous to
>>
>>>continue. For that type of snow, a Baja Bug worked
>>
>>surprisingly well.
>>
>>>The funny part in nasty conditions is watching all those
>>>drivers in their overweight SUV's discover the difference
>>
>>between
>>
>>>4 wheel drive and 4 wheel stop. At least it is funny if
>>
>>you are not
>>
>>>in front of them as they quickly discover the *downside*
>>
>>of too much
>>
>>>weight and not enough brains.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Franko proclaimed:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Pressure = Force X Area (in this situation, for all
>>
>>intents
>>
>>>>and purposes, Pressure = Traction, which is uncommon
>>
>>sense
>>
>>>>for many).
>>>>
>>>>Weight over the front or rear driving wheels work well
>>
>>when
>>
>>>>your vehicle isn't plowing the snow without a plow.
>>>>
>>>>I've driven through NE winters in a RWD '86 Camaro with
>>
>>200
>>
>>>>lbs of sand in the rear, with occasional help from rear
>>>>(obviously) tire chains. When the snow gets too high,
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>Camaro stays home and the 4WD CJ-11 takes over.
>>>>
>>>>And yes, many SUV drivers are idiots thinking they can
>>
>>drive
>>
>>>>anywhere/anytime/anyhow because of the AWD/4WD
>>
>>capabilities
>>
>>>>of their vehicles. Nevertheless, as a previous poster
>>>>stated, it takes skill. It doesn't take brains, just
>>
>>common
>>
>>>>(driving skill) sense.
>>>>
>>>>"Lon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>TheSnoMan proclaimed:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Lon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Franko proclaimed:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Every winter, I compete with local tow trucks to push
>>>>
>>>>or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>pull small MUVs (mall utility vehicles) up the little
>>>>
>>>>hills
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>in around the neighborhood with our 4x4 6.5TD Tahoe
>>>>
>>>>because
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>they could not get enough traction even with their
>>>>>>>>aggressive tires and AWD/4WD.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bullcrap. I've driven all over Colorado, Montana,
>>>>
>>>>Wyoming,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> etc. in a damn 914 Porsche. All you need is good
>>>>
>>>>tires and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> a functional brain. And sometimes studs or chains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All that weight does is make extra certain you'll
>>
>>end
>>
>>>>up in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> the ditch if you lose traction while moving. Or in
>>>>
>>>>the back
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> seat of a victim who actually DOES know something
>>>>
>>>>about
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> driving in deep snow conditions and is unable to
>>>>
>>>>avoid the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> mouth breathers that think they need a big
>>
>>overweight
>>
>>>>>>> vehicle because their brainpans are totally unladen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Obviously you have not driving there much and likely on
>>>>
>>>>plowed roads
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dude, when you can survive Kalispell Montana winters,
>>>>
>>>>get back to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> us. Otherwise, I just put you in the "couldn't drive
>>
>>a
>>
>>>>tractor"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> category. All it takes is brains.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>

Yeah, I liked it for similar reasons...it was light enough the GF
could push it. Actually don't ever remember needing to get out to
push tho... very capable little pigs with low pressure float
tires.

Bowgus proclaimed:

> I ran my bug with studded tires ... and the beauty was, if it did get stuck,
> you could put it in gear, get out and push, and hop back in ... without it
> stalling ... 40hp
>
>
>
>>Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
>>to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
>>snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
>>going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.
>
>
>

Best one I can remember was the day I got stuck in a rut that had
piled up frozen slush next to the curb. Darned stuff was frozen hard
and I could not for the life of me get that bug to climb out of the
rut. A neighbor's son had the high school wrestling team over that
day - they came out, lifted the front end out of the pile, set it on
the street side - problem solved. My biggest regret was that I let my
kids drive the bug when they started driving - end of bug. Bought it
from the original owner for $200 and drove the crap out of it. I
would probably still have it if the kids hadn't worked it over to the
point I couldn't keep it on th road.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:10:58 UTC "Bowgus" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I ran my bug with studded tires ... and the beauty was, if it did get stuck,
> you could put it in gear, get out and push, and hop back in ... without it
> stalling ... 40hp
>
>
> > Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
> > to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
> > snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
> > going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.
>
>


--
Will Honea

Will Honea wrote:
> Best one I can remember was the day I got stuck in a rut that had
> piled up frozen slush next to the curb. Darned stuff was frozen hard
> and I could not for the life of me get that bug to climb out of the
> rut. A neighbor's son had the high school wrestling team over that
> day - they came out, lifted the front end out of the pile, set it on
> the street side - problem solved. My biggest regret was that I let my
> kids drive the bug when they started driving - end of bug. Bought it
> from the original owner for $200 and drove the crap out of it. I
> would probably still have it if the kids hadn't worked it over to the
> point I couldn't keep it on th road.
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:10:58 UTC "Bowgus" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I ran my bug with studded tires ... and the beauty was, if it did get stuck,
>> you could put it in gear, get out and push, and hop back in ... without it
>> stalling ... 40hp
>>
>>
>>> Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
>>> to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
>>> snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
>>> going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.
>>
>
>
Ah, the good old days! I drove my girlfriends '67 bug convertible to my
nightly job as janitor and night watchman over a snow covered pass and
then up a 5 mile snow covered rutted excuse for a road to the ski lodge,
at Northstar (near lake Tahoe). We could and often did ski the same
road. It never got stuck. It had very little interior left and had
sticks holding up the windows. We used the emergency brake as the
normal brake. That thing was nearly as good as a jeep. ;-)

Yup. Took that old bug ('64) in places I won't even try with the MJ,
especially the narrow spots. It had a great approach angle, but the
departure angle sucked - I got real good at replacing tailpipes. Of
course, since the original investment was only $200, I could afford to
treat it as a throwaway. Thinking back to some of those stunts and
the subsequent repairs, I do miss the ability to just grab the engine
and lift it out of the way on the floor - try that with the 4.0 Jeep
engine!

On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:30:26 UTC Mike Hagen <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Will Honea wrote:
> > Best one I can remember was the day I got stuck in a rut that had
> > piled up frozen slush next to the curb. Darned stuff was frozen hard
> > and I could not for the life of me get that bug to climb out of the
> > rut. A neighbor's son had the high school wrestling team over that
> > day - they came out, lifted the front end out of the pile, set it on
> > the street side - problem solved. My biggest regret was that I let my
> > kids drive the bug when they started driving - end of bug. Bought it
> > from the original owner for $200 and drove the crap out of it. I
> > would probably still have it if the kids hadn't worked it over to the
> > point I couldn't keep it on th road.
> >
> > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:10:58 UTC "Bowgus" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I ran my bug with studded tires ... and the beauty was, if it did get stuck,
> >> you could put it in gear, get out and push, and hop back in ... without it
> >> stalling ... 40hp
> >>
> >>
> >>> Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
> >>> to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
> >>> snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
> >>> going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.
> >>
> >
> >
> Ah, the good old days! I drove my girlfriends '67 bug convertible to my
> nightly job as janitor and night watchman over a snow covered pass and
> then up a 5 mile snow covered rutted excuse for a road to the ski lodge,
> at Northstar (near lake Tahoe). We could and often did ski the same
> road. It never got stuck. It had very little interior left and had
> sticks holding up the windows. We used the emergency brake as the
> normal brake. That thing was nearly as good as a jeep. ;-)


--
Will Honea

I let a rat motor Impala get all 4 wheels frozen into wet soil. Even
with a 466 running bumped compression and 4:56 lock rear end, that
!@#$@#$
thing could not crack the wheels loose until I jacked the front ones
out of the freeze. They were only down into the muck about 2-3 inches
and I darned near killed a clutch on the thing.

Will Honea proclaimed:

> Best one I can remember was the day I got stuck in a rut that had
> piled up frozen slush next to the curb. Darned stuff was frozen hard
> and I could not for the life of me get that bug to climb out of the
> rut. A neighbor's son had the high school wrestling team over that
> day - they came out, lifted the front end out of the pile, set it on
> the street side - problem solved. My biggest regret was that I let my
> kids drive the bug when they started driving - end of bug. Bought it
> from the original owner for $200 and drove the crap out of it. I
> would probably still have it if the kids hadn't worked it over to the
> point I couldn't keep it on th road.
>
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:10:58 UTC "Bowgus" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>I ran my bug with studded tires ... and the beauty was, if it did get stuck,
>>you could put it in gear, get out and push, and hop back in ... without it
>>stalling ... 40hp
>>
>>
>>
>>>Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
>>>to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
>>>snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
>>>going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.
>>
>>
>
>

Lon wrote:
> I let a rat motor Impala get all 4 wheels frozen into wet soil. Even
> with a 466 running bumped compression and 4:56 lock rear end, that
> !@#$@#$
> thing could not crack the wheels loose until I jacked the front ones
> out of the freeze. They were only down into the muck about 2-3 inches
> and I darned near killed a clutch on the thing.
>
> Will Honea proclaimed:
>
>> Best one I can remember was the day I got stuck in a rut that had
>> piled up frozen slush next to the curb. Darned stuff was frozen hard
>> and I could not for the life of me get that bug to climb out of the
>> rut. A neighbor's son had the high school wrestling team over that
>> day - they came out, lifted the front end out of the pile, set it on
>> the street side - problem solved. My biggest regret was that I let my
>> kids drive the bug when they started driving - end of bug. Bought it
>> from the original owner for $200 and drove the crap out of it. I
>> would probably still have it if the kids hadn't worked it over to the
>> point I couldn't keep it on th road.
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:10:58 UTC "Bowgus" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I ran my bug with studded tires ... and the beauty was, if it did get
>>> stuck,
>>> you could put it in gear, get out and push, and hop back in ...
>>> without it
>>> stalling ... 40hp
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Biggest problem with a bug is that the front end is too darned light
>>>> to break out of a deep rut. I ran one for years up here. In deep
>>>> snow, chains on the rear with that flat bottom makes it a great sled -
>>>> going down hill. Not enough power to go back up, tho.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>


I have seen it so cold that the wheel bearings can freeze and the rear
axle lube is basically a solid.

--

-----------------
www.thesnoman.com

Hello from British Columbia:

Tho' it doesn't snow a lot where I live, When it does it's usually wet
enough that it packs to a nice slippery ice the first time you drive on
it. Also I live in the side of a mountain. I presently own 2 4x4
pickups: a HD3/4T Dsl & and a 77 F150 4-spd.

When I was young, I used to go out in my '67 full sized Pontiac whenever
it snowed to see if I could get stuck.

I've driven through almost 2' of unplowed snow in RWD 70's and 80's
mid-sized GMs with little difficulty, while the most of the city was
shut down and people were told not to venture out. I never used chains
but for heavy snow I did put up to 150 lbs of sand in the trunk, on the
R. side of centre.

My previous cars have all been RWD but I worked at a service stn. and
drove many diff. cars: here are my observations:

1. Driving technique: care, thought, practice is very important. Get in
the habit of shifting (Auto Trans cars) into N. when decreasing your
(road) speed before it drops below engine idle (coast) speed so the
engine doesn't "fight" the brakes and traction.

2. Have good SNOW or MUD + SNOW tire. All seasons are a poor compromise.
Wet snow clogs the tread.

3. Wide tires are bad! Especially on RWD vehicles; they make good snow
plows and skis.

4. Very compliant suspension is good. Even better: compliant suspension
on the non-drive axle, stiff suspension on the drive axle.

5. Auto-hubs on 4x4's (not including AWD or "full time 4wd") are usually
bad. With manual hubs and xfer case, you can engage and disengage the
4x4 immediately (i.e. disengage for cornering or engage if you start
slipping up a hill). Many auto hubs take too long to engage.

6. Generally RWD vans (except VW) and Pickup trucks (especially) are bad.

7. FWD cars can go good, but stopping (esp. going down hill) can be a
bigger problem than with RWD cars. With RWD you can use engine braking
and there is usually more even weight and brake force distribution. ALB
helps FWD cars greatly here.

Interesting Real life experiment:
For a few years my S.O. and I had nearly identical cars: '76 mid size GM
2-drs (Cutlass/Malibu/Lemans/Skylark... you get the idea). They both
weighed about the same but hers had a slightly heavier engine. They had
identical drive-trains without posi diffs. Hers was stock and mine had a
"tricked" susp. with HD F & R sway bars, HD Gas Shocks, and nice wide
low profile tires. Both cars had M+S tires on the rear only and A/S up
front. The comparison was very enlightening. (over 4,000#).

Mine was CRAP in the snow (though I still passed some FWD cars) and hers
was unstoppable. We passed all kinds of FWD and 4x4 vehicles with hers,
while in plush, pillowy, road-barge comfort. Later we bought '81 midsize
(same model but "downsized") all stock except HD rear springs, and it
was almost as good in the snow.

Hope this helps!

ps. I think RWD cars are a hoot to drive in the snow!



Salto Jorge wrote:

> I also live in Colorado.
>
> Most of the time a standard car will work well.
> The major roads are usually cleared in a short period of time.
> Side streets and dirt roads may take longer.
>
> As a 4x4 owner (6 of them) my entire family would tell you what matters is
> skill and tires.
>
> Learn how to stop on ice, due to the daily melt and freeze cycles.
> Learn how to stop.
> Do not tailgate.
> Know your vehicle, its limits and yours.
>
> I have seen many 4x4 rolled on the roads due to show offs and road rage.
>
> Just because you can get going faster from a light or weave in and out of
> slowing
> moving cars does not imply you can stop !
>
> Take Care
>
> 40+ year transplant in Colorado from New York where it really snows.
>
>
>