Temperemental starting and now dead!
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Water247
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Thanks for your replies chaps. I really don't think it is the battery. The battery in it now was on trickle charge for a day and night and showed 12.7V when I started using it and still showed 12.7 throughout and after testing. However, I have a second battery also on charge tonight which I'll also use to test tomorrow. Lastly I could just pull a battery from a known good car and use that.
Before I go mad on the battery tests I think it makes sense to eliminate the solenoid and wiring. So to use your suggested test Oxides, do I just clip the live batt. term. to the starter motor in place of the solenoid cable and plug the earth onto ??? (is there an earth connection on the starter too?). Sorry for the dumb instructional but I haven't even seen a starter motor until today and not been able to look at mine clearly yet. I guess if the starter's good I make the connection temporarily until the engine starts then remove the jump leads?
Before I go mad on the battery tests I think it makes sense to eliminate the solenoid and wiring. So to use your suggested test Oxides, do I just clip the live batt. term. to the starter motor in place of the solenoid cable and plug the earth onto ??? (is there an earth connection on the starter too?). Sorry for the dumb instructional but I haven't even seen a starter motor until today and not been able to look at mine clearly yet. I guess if the starter's good I make the connection temporarily until the engine starts then remove the jump leads?
If you're sure about the battery then...
The earth return from the starter is via its metal body. Just connect the -ve of the battery to a nice clean point on the engine and make sure the starter bolts are pinched up tight. If it turns easily try replacing the solenoid and cabling - you can try adding an extra wire from the battery -ve to the engine. If it doesn't turn over then it's time to overhaul or replace the starter motor. Connect the starter +ve end first then the battery, dont be hesitant or it'll spark like buggery. Just disconnect from the battery if it turns easily. Leave the normal battery connections in place so you don't run the risk of damaging the alternator if it starts.
The earth return from the starter is via its metal body. Just connect the -ve of the battery to a nice clean point on the engine and make sure the starter bolts are pinched up tight. If it turns easily try replacing the solenoid and cabling - you can try adding an extra wire from the battery -ve to the engine. If it doesn't turn over then it's time to overhaul or replace the starter motor. Connect the starter +ve end first then the battery, dont be hesitant or it'll spark like buggery. Just disconnect from the battery if it turns easily. Leave the normal battery connections in place so you don't run the risk of damaging the alternator if it starts.
Water247
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LATEST UPDATE 
+ve directly to starter motor, -ve earthed from engine. Starter motor turns a 'little' more consistently than before, but I still don't think it's spinning with the gusto it should be. Please view here and tell me what you think:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ9auAYZTo4"]YouTube - VID 00002-20110112-1210.3GP[/nomedia]
Next up, I moved the +ve to the starter motor connection at the solenoid (so still bypassing the solenoid but bringing the cabling between them into play) and it goes back to the hesitant effort as before. The cable seems in tact and connections look healthy (though the insulating cover for it at the starter motor end is hanging off (there is no cover for its connection at the solenoid)). I guess despite appearances I need to AT LEAST remove the cable and clean up the connections between these two points? ....or perhaps just replace it? I did notice that the jump lead connectors were warm to the touch after trying this way. Is that increased resistance from the problem or just to be expected because of the large current being passed? The video of this setup is here:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAyatKGb3sw"]YouTube - VID 00003-20110112-1214.3GP[/nomedia]
Just want to thank you all again for your help so far. It's invaluable as I'm so new to all this and it's making this troubleshooting quite bearable - in fact, even enjoyable
Andy.
+ve directly to starter motor, -ve earthed from engine. Starter motor turns a 'little' more consistently than before, but I still don't think it's spinning with the gusto it should be. Please view here and tell me what you think:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ9auAYZTo4"]YouTube - VID 00002-20110112-1210.3GP[/nomedia]
Next up, I moved the +ve to the starter motor connection at the solenoid (so still bypassing the solenoid but bringing the cabling between them into play) and it goes back to the hesitant effort as before. The cable seems in tact and connections look healthy (though the insulating cover for it at the starter motor end is hanging off (there is no cover for its connection at the solenoid)). I guess despite appearances I need to AT LEAST remove the cable and clean up the connections between these two points? ....or perhaps just replace it? I did notice that the jump lead connectors were warm to the touch after trying this way. Is that increased resistance from the problem or just to be expected because of the large current being passed? The video of this setup is here:
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAyatKGb3sw"]YouTube - VID 00003-20110112-1214.3GP[/nomedia]
Just want to thank you all again for your help so far. It's invaluable as I'm so new to all this and it's making this troubleshooting quite bearable - in fact, even enjoyable
Andy.
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Water247
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Since my last post I went back out and took off the cable from solenoid to starter. I cleaned the ends and checked the resistance which was 0 Ohms hmmm so I connected it back to the starter and hooked the other end of it to my +ve directly from the battery (well, via a jump lead). It was still sluggish. This made no sense. For my sanity I hooked my +ve directly back to the starter and it was sluggish again Earlier it was spinning more (as per video in last post).
I think that no matter what other issues may be a factor, tomorrow I need to take the starter off and take a look at it out of situ. I guess I can then test it as before (+ve on it and earth it from it's case)? ...and it should show some kind of happy, fast spinning life? If not then open it up?
This has got really frustrating today. I'd love to have a working starter I can swap over for testing but I only have what I have and no money for anything else at the moment. Ho hum. Anyone got a starter they wish to donate
so I connected it back to the starter and hooked the other end of it to my +ve directly from the battery (well, via a jump lead). It was still sluggish. This made no sense. For my sanity I hooked my +ve directly back to the starter and it was sluggish again Earlier it was spinning more (as per video in last post).I think that no matter what other issues may be a factor, tomorrow I need to take the starter off and take a look at it out of situ. I guess I can then test it as before (+ve on it and earth it from it's case)? ...and it should show some kind of happy, fast spinning life? If not then open it up?
This has got really frustrating today. I'd love to have a working starter I can swap over for testing but I only have what I have and no money for anything else at the moment. Ho hum. Anyone got a starter they wish to donate
Water247
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I have (beyond resonable doubt) eliminated the battery and wiring from this problem. I have also removed the starter motor and tested it on the bench and watched it fly round with no load on it.
I now figure there are two things left as potential issues. Either the starter won't perform under load (likelihood of this if it spins fine without load???) or the engine is seized up/full of gunk and putting a load on the starter that it is not meant to cope with.
A friend suggested an oil change may help the engine to turn over more freely (currently it does the jolty turning as per this video: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAyatKGb3sw"]YouTube - VID 00003-20110112-1214.3GP[/nomedia]). This seems like a good idea as I have had it 6 months and done about 4000 miles in it and got no idea when the last oil change was prior to me owning it (but may well have been years ago). Also, this problem has only really existed since the cold weather has arrived so I thought it might be related to oil. I have been topping it up with 15W40 but many people have said it should be 10W. Could this be making a noticeable difference to me now the cold weather is here?
DESPERATE FOR HELP so thank you all in advance
Andy.
I now figure there are two things left as potential issues. Either the starter won't perform under load (likelihood of this if it spins fine without load???) or the engine is seized up/full of gunk and putting a load on the starter that it is not meant to cope with.
A friend suggested an oil change may help the engine to turn over more freely (currently it does the jolty turning as per this video: [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAyatKGb3sw"]YouTube - VID 00003-20110112-1214.3GP[/nomedia]). This seems like a good idea as I have had it 6 months and done about 4000 miles in it and got no idea when the last oil change was prior to me owning it (but may well have been years ago). Also, this problem has only really existed since the cold weather has arrived so I thought it might be related to oil. I have been topping it up with 15W40 but many people have said it should be 10W. Could this be making a noticeable difference to me now the cold weather is here?
DESPERATE FOR HELP so thank you all in advance
Andy.
Water247
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or , I'm To further confuse things, I have now put the starter and everything else back and turned the ignition to make sure it was all connected up and it went back to turning over properly again. After 5 minutes of fiddling (having not been started for 2 weeks) I got it going and the engine to temperature. It now subsequently starts okay again (albeit after a few attempts sometimes).
This problem is driving me mad, I am chuffed it is working again but ****ed off I don't really know what I've done. I did do an oil change anyway - but after it started so can't claim it was this that solved it. I am sure I will have the problem again and probably when the temperature drops but for now I am happy to have a car again and will start rapidly ticking off all the jobs and hope I methodically correct the problem through the ToDo list - even if I never find out exactly which course of action is responsible for it going away.
Thanks for everyones help on this anyway.
Andy.
nrgserv
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potentially you've sorted a bad connection, possibly the earthing on the starter mountings. also, its possible the carbon brushes inside the starter are either stuck (with mud from pervious, or just in their own ****e) and when you dropped it on the floor while getting it out, you've disloged them so they contact the com again. (bits inside that their supposed to do)
if/when it does it agian, get the starting handle out, and wollop the starter with it. may shock the brushes back into place.
glad its runing for you tho!
if/when it does it agian, get the starting handle out, and wollop the starter with it. may shock the brushes back into place.
glad its runing for you tho!
keeniemeenie
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hi andy,
no direct help but wanted to let you know have been having almost identical issues with my own s3 and this thread (and your other covering the batteries) is giving me some great diagnostics!
my main emb*ggerance at the moment is mine is 24v which adds to the fun...
cheers,
paul
no direct help but wanted to let you know have been having almost identical issues with my own s3 and this thread (and your other covering the batteries) is giving me some great diagnostics!
my main emb*ggerance at the moment is mine is 24v which adds to the fun...
cheers,
paul
Water247
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keeniemeenie - no problem bud, glad it's been of use. Nice to know other people in the same boat as well so I don't feel so alone! I actually drove it to the petrol station this afternoon and it refused to start again for about 2 minutes. I was just starting to panic when it burst into life again. I think whilst the cold starting is really killing it I have so many other potential issues I have to accept until I get much further down the todo list it is still going to be temeperemental (exhaust manifold to exhaust downpipe gap, timing, distributor overhaul etc etc.)
nrgserv - I DON'T HAVE A STARTER HANDLE and you can tell by my capitals that I am not happy about it as I feel less than complete Series owner I would love to have one should anyone in Surrey have a freebie/cheapo to offer me? I do, however, have a calibration tool/club hammer in the car which I will wallop the starter with if need be.
nrgserv - I DON'T HAVE A STARTER HANDLE and you can tell by my capitals that I am not happy about it as I feel less than complete Series owner
I would love to have one should anyone in Surrey have a freebie/cheapo to offer me? I do, however, have a calibration tool/club hammer in the car which I will wallop the starter with if need be.
dirtyrhino
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That'll be the choke warning light switch BTW.
It really does sound like the starter needs replacing fella, especially as it seems intermittent - like NG says - the brushes or comutator are more than likely narked.
It really does sound like the starter needs replacing fella, especially as it seems intermittent - like NG says - the brushes or comutator are more than likely narked.
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Water247
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Thanks mate but think you've only read halfway through the post
It was the switch you say but we got to the bottom of that one 2 weeks ago :doh:
dirtyrhino
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The joys of reading a thread while eating. Apologies.
nrgserv
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Thanks mate but think you've only read halfway through the post
rofl!The joys of reading a thread while eating. Apologies.
the number of times i do that!
specially when theres a few threads with the same peeps on, you forget who's talkin about what!
as for winding handles, mine was made from a lump of 3/4 rebar, bent the crank on it, stuck a peice of 22mm copper pipe on for the handle, drilled the other end to take a 6mm bolt with the head cut off for the starting dog.
lack of handle for wolloping starter- found a 2' long peice of 1" steampipe works as good. also fits highlift jacks as a handle and acts as a wheelbrace extension.
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