Td4 poor cold start

Animaldaz · Jul 2, 2015

Hi everyone,
I'm new here, I have signed up to hopefully get some advice. I have been reading through a lot of threads and I can see this board has some very clever people.

I have been playing with a 2006 td4 freelander auto and it has poor starting from cold, when it does start it will run rough for a few seconds then clears. It seems to drive well with no obvious loss of power.
So far I have replaced the fuel filter, checked injector leak off (leak off pipes disconnected then ignition on) checked and cleaned up fuel pressure sensor terminals and checked for fault codes .
Now I think the fault may be the lift pump but unfortunately I don't have any means of checking it's output, what should it be pumping out? It is still possible there is an injector fault but I obviously dont want to remove them all for testing if it is more likely the pump.
The car has covered 86000 miles which I know is a common mileage for pump failure.

Can anyone with freelander experience offer any advice, or maybe confirm my suspicions?

Many thanks in advance.

lenny1234 · Jul 2, 2015

There is a way to check fuel pressure: I dont know it. If it also feels down on power that (low fuel pressure/failing fuel pump) could be the problem.

Tiny1000 · Jul 2, 2015

You could try your cam sensor, it's used for cold starting, so when the engine's warm it's not used

Animaldaz · Jul 2, 2015

That's the thing it runs well with no loss of power, having said that I haven't driven another td4 auto to compare it to but to me it feels right.
I thought a faulty cam sensor would give hot starting problems? But that's just what I have read on other threads.
The only other thing I could add is once it does start it chucks out a lot of black smoke, but that is probably due to the fact a lot of fuel has been injected before it eventually starts.

Tiny1000 · Jul 2, 2015

The info is from what I've read about the cam sensor - It's used to aid starting on cold engines, so if it's faulty then it could be the reason you have trouble starting from cold, once the engine is warm it's not used unless it's faulty and not cutting out (maybe where you've heard about it causing problems with warm engines), I hope it helps if only enough for you to read a bit more about it before replacing it.

englishbullterrier · Jul 2, 2015

If it was me, the very first thing I'd do is check for +ve 12v at the glow plug rail.

If this is present, I would change the glow plugs for new. Always a great diagnostic move to diagnose diesel cold start issues.

Oh, and you might try here too - Introduce Yourself - Land Rover Zone

Animaldaz · Jul 2, 2015

Thanks for all the replies, and apologies for not introducing myself in the new members section.
This is the first freelander I have ever worked on so please excuse my ignorance and again I am relying on what I have read but I was under the impression the glow plugs only kick in when it is very cold?
That would have been my first port of call if I hadn't read about them .

So far then new possibilities are cam sensor and glow plugs. Thanks for the suggestions.

td4van · Jul 2, 2015

Cam sensor is used whenever the car is started whether it's hot or cold.

When doing the leak back check what did you do? Did you clamp the removed return pipe and then measure any leak out the top of each of the injectors with the pump running?

Glow plugs are used pretty much all the time when cold starting and it doesn't always put the light on (helps reduce cold start emissions)

englishbullterrier · Jul 2, 2015

Although glow plugs are not relied upon so much in common rail diesels (as opposed to those that have a diesel distributor pump), as mentioned, always a great diagnostic step for not much dosh.:drum:

Animaldaz · Jul 2, 2015

td4van said:
Cam sensor is used whenever the car is started whether it's hot or cold.

When doing the leak back check what did you do? Did you clamp the removed return pipe and then measure any leak out the top of each of the injectors with the pump running?

Glow plugs are used pretty much all the time when cold starting and it doesn't always put the light on (helps reduce cold start emissions)

When researching this fault I came across numerous threads that suggests cam sensor faults but they were always hot starting problems, and the consensus was that was when they give trouble. I also found info saying it's only used for starting so once the engine is running the sensor does nothing.

Yes exactly that with the injectors and i got no leak back.. I had a chat with a land rover technician and he has had one that had no leak back but the injectors where the problem.

Interesting you say the glow plugs are used most times for cold starting, and I have noticed the light hasnt come on .

clarkkent · Jul 4, 2015

I'm afraid you have joined the cold start mystery club.
No one has ever come up with a solution for this problem apart from, worn engine.
Some people have virtually rebuilt there FL trying to solve it, without joy.
It will be even worse in winter

teddywood1 · Jul 5, 2015

mine was like that plenty of smoke and took a while to start new glow plugs and no problem simples and cheap easy fix

B34R · Jul 5, 2015

I wonder if these suffer from the same thing as the Volkswagen 16V diesels...

Due to emissions regs they're not allowed to inject diesel until they've hit an RPMmin so they wont produce smoke.

Means when the starter starts to get a little tired they can take a while to get started, confuses the hell out of everyone as the starter "sounds" good, it just misses the target rpm by a few.

And when they do start, they're a mess...

clarkkent · Jul 5, 2015

B34R said:
I wonder if these suffer from the same thing as the Volkswagen 16V diesels...

Due to emissions regs they're not allowed to inject diesel until they've hit an RPMmin so they wont produce smoke.

Means when the starter starts to get a little tired they can take a while to get started, confuses the hell out of everyone as the starter "sounds" good, it just misses the target rpm by a few.

And when they do start, they're a mess...

Well that is a new one I've not heard of.
Only issue is, having replaced most things already, am I going to fork out for a new starter motor on the off chance

B34R · Jul 6, 2015

clarkkent said:
Well that is a new one I've not heard of.
Only issue is, having replaced most things already, am I going to fork out for a new starter motor on the off chance

Aye, was just a musing rather than anything!

Still, I wonder whether these engines have the same feature.

td4van · Jul 6, 2015

The engine has to crank at a certain speed else it won't begin fuelling.

That's quite a common feature on later engines

lenny1234 · Jul 11, 2015

B34R said:
when the starter starts to get a little tired

Ahem.

Car motor starters are field and armature wound animals on soft iron laminations. So long as the brushes do not go high resistance - and that is something that pretty soon results in the motor not turning over at all - they wont get 'tired'. The copper can't get tired. The iron can't get tired.

Batteries may get tired. Connections may get corroded. But starter motors themselves either work properly, or (barely) not at all.

And yes., I have an honours degree in electrical engineering : I do know my electric motors

gilbertian · Jul 12, 2015

Hi Animaldaz,

I had the same problem with my 2004 TD4 a few years ago.
After many hours with circuit diagram and test meter I discovered that the glow plugs were not staying on.
The engine uses the water temperature sensor to determine cold start fuel injection time.
In my case I cut one of the wires leading to the water temperature sensor and soldered in a 500ohm resistor. (actual wire cut was under the cover where the electronic control unit is, but next to the sensor would be the same).
This had the effect that the engine 'thought' it was a cold day so turned on the glow plugs for much longer.
The car starts first turn every time now (2 years on).
The only down side is that the water temperature gauge in the car only just gets off the stop at fully warm, also the fuel burning heater comes on sometimes, but I can put up with that as the start is so quick.

Long term solution in this case could be that the water temperature sensor needs to be replaced, as possibly it has got water inside it? I have not removed mine but I suspect that it will have a negative temperature thermistor (resistance goes up as the water temperature goes down), embedded inside a thin steel shell. I have not found anywhere the resistance readings at various range of temperatures of a new device.

Although it sorted my car I would welcome others comments.

Hope you get sorted.

lenny1234 · Jul 12, 2015

gilbertian said:
Hi Animaldaz,

I had the same problem with my 2004 TD4 a few years ago.
After many hours with circuit diagram and test meter I discovered that the glow plugs were not staying on.
The engine uses the water temperature sensor to determine cold start fuel injection time.
In my case I cut one of the wires leading to the water temperature sensor and soldered in a 500ohm resistor. (actual wire cut was under the cover where the electronic control unit is, but next to the sensor would be the same).
This had the effect that the engine 'thought' it was a cold day so turned on the glow plugs for much longer.
The car starts first turn every time now (2 years on).
The only down side is that the water temperature gauge in the car only just gets off the stop at fully warm, also the fuel burning heater comes on sometimes, but I can put up with that as the start is so quick.

Long term solution in this case could be that the water temperature sensor needs to be replaced, as possibly it has got water inside it? I have not removed mine but I suspect that it will have a negative temperature thermistor (resistance goes up as the water temperature goes down), embedded inside a thin steel shell. I have not found anywhere the resistance readings at various range of temperatures of a new device.

Although it sorted my car I would welcome others comments.

Hope you get sorted.

I am not a fan of bypassing systems that don't work with systems that dont really work either ;-)

Its not a great idea to run an engine permanently cold.

If the cold start sensing ain't working get a new cold start sensor!

I have had at least one water temperature sensor say 'this car is cold no matter what'

That is, it was within cold spec, but never changed when it got warm.

It sounds like yours was within warm spec, and never changed when it got cold!

Sensors are not hard to test. Hoick em out, put a resistance meter on em and stiff them in a saucepan and boil them.

If the resistance doesn't drop rapidly towards boiling point, they are stuffed and are very cheap to replace.

clarkkent · Jul 12, 2015

Very interesting reading , but are you saying that the water temp sensor is telling the ecu that the water is above the temp it is ?

Td4 poor cold start

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