Tax Exempt, modifications question

Shedload said:

I think the answer is modder beware and buyer be even more aware.
It's one things making changes to a vehicle you own for your own reasons and taking on any possible risk.
It is quite another to spend hard earned cash on a vehicle you think is legit only to find later that you have bought an expensive can of worms.
I read a while back of a guy who imported a very expensive Series from Africa that had been fully refurbished at great expense.
Only to find it could not be UK registered as no official records existed.
Not what we are talking about but it just shows things can go wrong.

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I don't think it is all that modder beware or buyer. As stated above, you have to make the self declaration every year, for Historic status and MoT exemption. When you buy a car, VED is non transferrable, so you will have to make those declarations there and then to use it on the road. so the situation is no different.

Your second point is completely unrelated and just sounds like someone hadn't done any homework at all. Of course you'd need some sort of vehicle ID to import and have it registered as its original make/year. I don't believe it couldn't be registered though, as that is what the IVA and Q plates are for....

300bhp/ton said:

That's your opinion and not one based on actual fact.... there are many different ways of modding a vehicle.

For example, a Tdi engine is as akin to a 2.25 engine a 4.6 Rover V8 is to an early 3.5

The Tdi uses essentially the same block as the earlier engine, so could quite justifiably be seen as the same engine, just an evolved state. Same as a 4.6 RV8 is quite different in many ways to an early 3.5, but most would say they are the same engine.

Suspension - has it really changed? I don't see independent suspension being fitted? Both systems are live axle suspension systems. The spring type has changed, but you could argue fitting paraboics or dual rate coil springs also does this. And there is, as I pointed out above, no definition of the word "modification" or any of the components.

It is also not illegal to repair a chassis. As you aren't transferring the chassis number over, you could say you used scrap metal to repair the chassis legs. At the end of the day, a large proportion of the chassis will be Series such as the crossmember and all the out riggers.

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There are only two ways of modifiying a vehicle: Legally, and illegally.
I was being specific. Describing Series Land Rovers that are described as being tax and MOT free yet having the bottom half of a different vehicle under the body. Nobody has mentioned converting to independant suspension...

300bhp/ton said:

Where is your data that the 2.25 is cleaner.....

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I assumed he referred to the newer 2.2 as opposed to the old 2225...

yfo866 said:

I assumed he referred to the newer 2.2 as opposed to the old 2225...

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What 2.2? A Puma?

yfo866 said:

There are only two ways of modifiying a vehicle: Legally, and illegally.
I was being specific. Describing Series Land Rovers that are described as being tax and MOT free yet having the bottom half of a different vehicle under the body. Nobody has mentioned converting to independant suspension...

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Utter nonsense I'm afraid. It is not illegal to modify a vehicle. Do at least put some effort into reading the .gov pages I linked before posting utter drivel.

300bhp/ton said:

I don't think it is all that modder beware or buyer. As stated above, you have to make the self declaration every year, for Historic status and MoT exemption. When you buy a car, VED is non transferrable, so you will have to make those declarations there and then to use it on the road. so the situation is no different.

Your second point is completely unrelated and just sounds like someone hadn't done any homework at all. Of course you'd need some sort of vehicle ID to import and have it registered as its original make/year. I don't believe it couldn't be registered though, as that is what the IVA and Q plates are for....

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I am simply pointing out that you need to check and be aware of what you are doing or buying.
As you say the declaration has to be made, but that only works if you tell the truth and know what has been done.

300bhp/ton said:

Utter nonsense I'm afraid. It is not illegal to modify a vehicle. Do at least put some effort into reading the .gov pages I linked before posting utter drivel.

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IF you swap your chassis, engine and gearbox, both axles and steering from another vehicle onto your 'free tax' vehicle and then do not inform DVLA, then yes mate, IT IS ILLEGAL! On two counts.
1. In the eyes of DVLA it is no longer the vehicle as registered which will then be given a Q registration number. That is the reason begind the points system.
2. As it is no longer the original 'free tax' vehicle you will be liable to pay tax.
There are many ways in which to modify a vehicle illegally. Fitting wheels which stick out from the bodywork when viewed from above is illegal. Having an exhaust that is too loud is illegal. Tinting front side windows too dark is ilIegal. Tinting the windscreen too dark is illegal! I didn't bother reading the links because having had to go through this process when building a kit car i am very familiar with the regulations. AND i also already own a 90 which is already on a Q plate after it was rebuilt using a new modified 110 chassis cut down to suit the body.
Yes, you can swap any part of one vehicle onto another whether it fits or not, but there are rules you have to follow. If you do not follow them you could fail your MOT. If you do not declare the changes you will have voided your insurance, at worse you will be stopped on the road by the police it will be impounded and it could end up being crushed!
At least that's how it is in the real world...
The person here spouting utter drivel is YOU!

Indeed

yfo866 is correct.​

Often not what you do it is the way that you go about it.
Nearly slipped into Bananarama there !
Ooer ?

yfo866 said:

IF you swap your chassis, engine and gearbox, both axles and steering from another vehicle onto your 'free tax' vehicle and then do not inform DVLA, then yes mate, IT IS ILLEGAL! On two counts.
1. In the eyes of DVLA it is no longer the vehicle as registered which will then be given a Q registration number. That is the reason begind the points system.
2. As it is no longer the original 'free tax' vehicle you will be liable to pay tax.
There are many ways in which to modify a vehicle illegally. Fitting wheels which stick out from the bodywork when viewed from above is illegal. Having an exhaust that is too loud is illegal. Tinting front side windows too dark is ilIegal. Tinting the windscreen too dark is illegal! I didn't bother reading the links because having had to go through this process when building a kit car i am very familiar with the regulations. AND i also already own a 90 which is already on a Q plate after it was rebuilt using a new modified 110 chassis cut down to suit the body.
Yes, you can swap any part of one vehicle onto another whether it fits or not, but there are rules you have to follow. If you do not follow them you could fail your MOT. If you do not declare the changes you will have voided your insurance, at worse you will be stopped on the road by the police it will be impounded and it could end up being crushed!
At least that's how it is in the real world...
The person here spouting utter drivel is YOU!

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You are still COMPLETELY missing the point.....

You are NOT swapping on a new chassis with a different ID. You are repairing your old EXISTING chassis.... an RRC chassis does not have the correct rear cross member or any of the out riggers. All of these bits will remain as original parts, with the rest being replaced with repair sections.

Now of course if you didn't change the wheelbase and simply plonked a modified body onto a 100" chassis, that is something different. Again, this is not illegal, as body swaps are most definitely allowed, but it should be registered with the chassis ID.

As for things like axles, in the absence of definitions of what consists an axle or a modification. There is nothing to say you cannot use later axles. They are both essentially the same design and have many interchangeable parts. Think about it, you could achieve the same results by taking a Series axle and extending or replacing the axle tubes and then using the appropriate shafts. Axle serial numbers are also not tracked anywhere (may not even be present) and would not be listed on a V5.

So as to your point 2. YES is could still be the 'free tax' vehicle. You have to READ the guidelines then make a SELF declaration on if you think you meet them.

The DVLA/DVSA have plenty of power if they disagree with you. They don't need wannabe vigilantes roaming forums as though they are some kind of Police officer.

Shedload said:

Indeed

yfo866 is correct.​

Often not what you do it is the way that you go about it.
Nearly slipped into Bananarama there !
Ooer ?

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They aren't correct at all, they are taking one very simplistic view and toting it as the definitive answer..... taking no account of any technical aspect of a vehicle or how they are assembled.

300bhp/ton said:

As stated above, you have to make the self declaration every year, for Historic status and MoT exemption.

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I have never "made a declaration" annually or otherwise for any historic vehicle except when registering it as historic in the first instance. I have 8 of them between the cars and bikes and simply tax them free every year.
Technically you are supposed to notify the DVLA if you make any major mods on a vehicle and they give you guidelines to follow to assess what are "major" mods without great detail.
Some mods are allowed and some are very "grey" in their legality. Personally I would be a bit nervous about some of the mods mentioned above as being acceptable but the proof would be in the pudding if you were in an accident and both your insurance company and the DVLA were happy with them,
My own personal opinion would be that a 110 underneath a series shell is in essence a 110 with a bodykit fitted, not a series.

BikerB said:

I have never "made a declaration" annually or otherwise for any historic vehicle except when registering it as historic in the first instance. I have 8 of them between the cars and bikes and simply tax them free every year.
Technically you are supposed to notify the DVLA if you make any major mods on a vehicle and they give you guidelines to follow to assess what are "major" mods without great detail.
Some mods are allowed and some are very "grey" in their legality. Personally I would be a bit nervous about some of the mods mentioned above as being acceptable but the proof would be in the pudding if you were in an accident and both your insurance company and the DVLA were happy with them,
My own personal opinion would be that a 110 underneath a series shell is in essence a 110 with a bodykit fitted, not a series.

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Yes it is a 110 but it has been known to pretend its a modified Series to get tax (and now mot) free status.

BikerB said:

I have never "made a declaration" annually or otherwise for any historic vehicle except when registering it as historic in the first instance. I have 8 of them between the cars and bikes and simply tax them free every year.

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You do make a declaration, either online or by signing a bit of paper. You do this each year for the MoT exemption as part of the Road Tax process. You are also signing to say the vehicle is of the correct classification, aka Historic status. Maybe be a little more observant next time you do this for one of your 8 vehicles.

BikerB said:

Technically you are supposed to notify the DVLA if you make any major mods on a vehicle and they give you guidelines to follow to assess what are "major" mods without great detail.

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That is not what the guidance says... have you actually read it? And as stated multiple times in this thread. There is no test or assessment on what is or isn't allowed outside of the guidance, which is a self declaration process. You can contact the DVSA who can give you "advise", but they will not give you a ruling on if your vehicle does or does not need an IVA.

BikerB said:

Some mods are allowed and some are very "grey" in their legality.

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Unless you are fitting spikes and stupid stuff, no there is no grey area on legality. All mods are allowed, so long as they don't breach Construction & Use or any other Road regulations. What you are badly trying to say is the registration and classification may differ, but this does not make such mod illegal!

BikerB said:

Personally I would be a bit nervous about some of the mods mentioned above as being acceptable but the proof would be in the pudding if you were in an accident and both your insurance company and the DVLA were happy with them,

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Insurance is completely unrelated. Of course it would be very wise to ensure all modifications are declared. And if accepted and money taken from you, then you are insured.

BikerB said:

My own personal opinion would be that a 110 underneath a series shell is in essence a 110 with a bodykit fitted, not a series.

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You can't have a 110 with an 88 inch wheel base. That would be something else. Which the guidance clearly states would need an IVA and would not retain its identity. You would be using the 110's chassis number in this situation.

If you fitted a 109 body to a 110 chassis, again this is not illegal, but you would again be using the 110's chassis number and identity.

Likewise, you can put a cutdown body onto a 100" Range Rover chassis perfectly legally too (Land Rover even built a few 100" models). As body swaps are legal and you wouldn't be changing the wheelbase or the RR. You would then use the RR identity.

If you took a 110 and chopped it down to 100", this would be a wheelbase change, which as per the guidance would likely require an IVA if you where to use the 110's chassis number.

I think what is confusing everyone here is the issue about claiming "historic" exemption and the fiddles that folk are trying to get around the rules, such as they are.
Sticking a series body on a 110 chassis is not "illegal" but it does mean the vehicle is not "historic" and therefore not exempt from tax and mot requirements, nor should it.
What seems to being argued by some here is that this is not so.

Guidance
Historic (classic) vehicles: MOT exemption criteria
Published 20 May 2018

‘Substantial change’ criteria
Main vehicle components (excluding motorcycles)
Chassis
Chassis replacements of the same pattern as the original are not considered to be a substantial change

or

Monocoque bodyshell
Replacements of the same pattern as the original are not considered to be a substantial change (including any sub-frames).

Axles and running gear
Alteration of the type or method of:

suspension
steering
is a ‘substantial change’.

Engine
Alternative cubic capacities of the same basic engine and alternative original equipment engines are not considered to be a substantial change.

If the number of cylinders in an engine is different from the original it’s likely to be, but not necessarily, the case that the current engine is not alternative original equipment.

Other ‘substantial change’ criteria (all vehicles)
A vehicle is considered to have been ‘substantially changed’ if it:

has been given a ‘Q’ registration number
is a kit car assembled from components from different makes and model of vehicle
is a reconstructed classic vehicle as defined by DVLA guidance
is a kit conversion, where a kit of new parts is added to an existing vehicle, or old parts are added to a kit of a manufactured body, chassis or monocoque bodyshell, which changes the general appearance of the vehicle
However, if a vehicle meeting one or more of these criteria is taxed as a ‘historic vehicle’, and it has not been modified during the previous 30 years, it is exempt from needing an MOT.

Acceptable changes
It does not count as a ‘substantial change’ if:

changes are made to preserve a vehicle because the original type parts are no longer reasonably available
they are changes of a type which can be demonstrated to have been made when vehicles of the type were in production or within 10 years of the end of production
axles and running gear have been changed to improve efficiency, safety or environmental performance
changes were made to vehicles that were previously used as commercial vehicles, and you can prove the changes were made when the vehicle was used commercially

300bhp/ton said:

You are still COMPLETELY missing the point.....

You are NOT swapping on a new chassis with a different ID. You are repairing your old EXISTING chassis.... an RRC chassis does not have the correct rear cross member or any of the out riggers. All of these bits will remain as original parts, with the rest being replaced with repair sections.

Now of course if you didn't change the wheelbase and simply plonked a modified body onto a 100" chassis, that is something different. Again, this is not illegal, as body swaps are most definitely allowed, but it should be registered with the chassis ID.

As for things like axles, in the absence of definitions of what consists an axle or a modification. There is nothing to say you cannot use later axles. They are both essentially the same design and have many interchangeable parts. Think about it, you could achieve the same results by taking a Series axle and extending or replacing the axle tubes and then using the appropriate shafts. Axle serial numbers are also not tracked anywhere (may not even be present) and would not be listed on a V5.

So as to your point 2. YES is could still be the 'free tax' vehicle. You have to READ the guidelines then make a SELF declaration on if you think you meet them.

The DVLA/DVSA have plenty of power if they disagree with you. They don't need wannabe vigilantes roaming forums as though they are some kind of Police officer.

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OK. i'll try to make you see sense ONCE MORE!
You start off with a Series 88 inch on leaf springs.
What i see WITH MY OWN EYES at MANY shows is the same 88inch with free tax with it's original registration number sat on a chassis designed for coil springs, with coil springs, with coil spring axles, with a V8 engine and gearbox.

What you need to have to retain your original registration number AND in the eyes of DVLA for enough of the original vehicle to retain it's classic tax status is a score of 8 points or more...

BUT:
You've either used a coil spring chassis OR hacked up your existing original leaf spring chassis.
Lose 5 points.
You now have coil spring suspension where you used to have leaf.
Lose 2 points.
Axles. Either from the Range Rover, or modified to suit coil springs. Either way, NOT original.
Lose 2 points.
Engine.
Lose 1 point.
Gearbox.
Lose 2 points.
That just leaves the steering. Which i would say is not original as it's now power assisted.
That means in the eyes of the DVLA, who disregard the body completely with a chassis/body construction vehicle, that your original vehicle doesn't exist which will result in the loss of the original identity. You'll be issued with a) a Q plate or b) if you can prove the other UNMODIFIED components all came from another single vehicle then you'll be able to use it's identity.
Lose 2 points.

​

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Keep the original registration number​

Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.