Tax Exempt, modifications question

Advice please

I've sold my TD5 and after an experience with a Discovery 4 I've just got a series 3. Not even seen it yet, collection Saturday from Inverness Scotland. I'm Southampton.

I'm keen to make it a V8, will this effect the tax exempt status?

I will use the series gearbox and axels. I want it to look correct

Anyone have any experience of this. I've seen examples taken to extreme in modifications and still claim tax exempt, how?

Thanks

Rob

No difference at all, I think engine is worth 1 point?

Going to be a culture shock after a D4!

6k for turbos was a shock, body off to do it was the next surprise.

Fantastic vehicle but stupid design decisions. Handbrake actuator where you can only see ut with one eye at a time.

lynall said:

No difference at all, I think engine is worth 1 point?

Going to be a culture shock after a D4!

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There is no points system for historic status.

Tig-man said:

Advice please

I've sold my TD5 and after an experience with a Discovery 4 I've just got a series 3. Not even seen it yet, collection Saturday from Inverness Scotland. I'm Southampton.

I'm keen to make it a V8, will this effect the tax exempt status?

I will use the series gearbox and axels. I want it to look correct

Anyone have any experience of this. I've seen examples taken to extreme in modifications and still claim tax exempt, how?

Thanks

Rob

Click to expand...

The guidance is all super clear in the dot gov site. It is also a self declaration process. So the only view to consider is yours. As you have to sign the each and every year to say it is compliant.

300bhp/ton said:

There is no points system for historic status.

Click to expand...

300bhp/ton said:

The guidance is all super clear in the dot gov site. It is also a self declaration process. So the only view to consider is yours. As you have to sign the each and every year to say it is compliant.

Click to expand...

J

P

In part answer to my question, I've read the guidance several times. Chassis change ok so long as it's the direct replacement.
Leaf springs to coil are considered substantial change. But if you argue it's to obtain disc brakes then it's safety so possibly ok.

Gearbox changes not ok

As landrover made a v8 series 3 from 1976 on then the engine change is ok.
Can you argue the v8 is environmental better. As the 2.2 is so hideously uneconomical.

Tig-man said:

In part answer to my question, I've read the guidance several times. Chassis change ok so long as it's the direct replacement.
Leaf springs to coil are considered substantial change.

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Firstly, I bet you cannot find anywhere that says leaf to coil is not allowed. Just as you won't find anything saying coil to air bag isn't either.

It is all "generic" advice, as there are too many vehicles and modifications to cover off specific examples.

However, to get the logbook changed to Historic vehicle status, you will need to sign to say your vehicle is compliant. There are no tests or examinations of an official nature to determine this.

Historic status means it is "tax exempt", well it won't technically be tax exempt, you will just be in a category that is zero rate, aka £0.00, and each year you will need to "tax" it, re-signing a declaration that the vehicle conforms to Historic status. Again, there are no official tests or inspections to determine this. It is a self declaration.

Then there is MoT exemption, which follows a different criteria. Therefore it is possible to have a car that could be non historic, but MoT exempt and I suppose the vice versa would also be true.

Again there are no tests or inspections to determine if your vehicle is MoT Exempt. It is a 100% self declaration process (assuming the vehicle was built or first registered more than 40 years ago). And when you "tax" it each year, it will do a check and get you to confirm each year that either the vehicle has been MoT'd or that it meets the exemption criteria. Making this also an annual self declaration process too.

However..... because the advice is generic. It allows the DVSA to make their own judgement if they wish to single out a vehicle/owner. And there is probably little you can do should this happen.

Advice:

It is all very clear and easy to follow.

The "points" system people refer to is very much a red herring. As there are multiple systems:


CLICK both of these, they are different links...

Note there is no system or test to determine which set of guidance applies, this is also a self choice. They are similar, but not identical and one doesn't use points at all. Also these are about "registration" and if the vehicle is eligible to retain its registration. This can have the knock on effect that a registration change may then not be eligible for 'historic status', aka Tax exemption. But said vehicle could still qualify for MoT exemption if it meets that criteria. But it is all pretty easy to follow.

Ultimately, nobodies "opinion" matters on what is or isn't allowed. You have to read the guidance yourself and then personally decide if your vehicle conforms or not and if you believe it does, sign to say it does, aka self declaration of YOU taking responsibility for the decision.

For example, if you look at the either the radically altered or rebuilt vehicle regs they say this:

A rebuilt vehicle can keep its original registration number if you can prove you’ve used:

• the original unmodified chassis or bodyshell

points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer)

What is not offered is any definition of the word "modified".

Drilling a hole, bolting on a bracket or welding something (even a repair patch) could quite easily be deemed a modification. Therefore fitting of rollcages or different engine mounts may be used as an argument. Yet plenty of cars with such modifications exist. So this is where the advice is grey, thus giving the DVSA the power to single out individual vehicles if they so wish.

Another example:


What is meant by "steering assembly"? No definition is offered or given. Is a steering wheel part of the assembly? Technically I'd say yes it is. But it would seem very harsh that an aftermarket steering wheel would lose you 2 points on the Radically Altered Vehicle regs.

So it comes back to you as an individual to decide if your vehicle meets the guidance and if you can justify how and why.

Most of it is self proclaiming so you can be honest and vague at the same time ?
Only issue is when there is no V5, then questions can be asked.
Many of the changes listed above would technically not be allowed and you will find many Series vehicles for sale that are not.
My advice, make sure you have V5 in your name first then make changes as you go along.
Don't hit them with too many changes at once and keep copies of each V5 as you update, and before you send originals.
Keep insurer informed and good look.

I'd say steering assembly is swapping to a powered steering set up when the car didn't have. You can change to a quick rack that also is much modification.
But I think that points system is when you have made so many changes your trying to keep the original number plate.

Really its a surprise that it is vague in the regulations.
Of course you can modify as much as you like and don't declare it, fine if you don't get caught I guess.

Tig-man said:

I've seen examples taken to extreme in modifications and still claim tax exempt, how?

Thanks

Rob

Click to expand...

They lie and don't declare it, including to the insurance company more often than not.
V8 would be fine, its quite common for an engine transplant.

Tig-man said:

I'd say steering assembly is swapping to a powered steering set up when the car didn't have. You can change to a quick rack that also is much modification.

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This is what I mean, hence why it is a self declaration.... you may see it one way, but someone else may see it another. And there isn't really any way to tell if either is right or not or if there is a better answer.

As for adding power steering, well you can (or could) buy a system for a Series Land Rover that added some hydraulic rams to help assist and retained all of the original linkages and column. Which I'd say is far less of a modification than a quick rack.

Tig-man said:

But I think that points system is when you have made so many changes your trying to keep the original number plate.

Click to expand...

Not really, its as I said above and what the two links explain. The Rebuilt vehicle regs do not use points. The Radically altered regs do. But there is no guidance on when which set of regs apply or how you choose which set to work from.

They are about whether the vehicle retains its registration, not the number plate as such, but the make, model, variant and year built. The regs don't stop you doing any mods, but certain mods or a collections of mods mean you will need to get an IVA (individual vehicle approval), which is a form of Type Approval to prove the vehicle adheres to the safety, design and emissions standards for a road going vehicle. Typically when you do this it will no longer be registered as the original vehicle make/model. Thus you get a new registration or even a Q plate.

Tig-man said:

Advice please

I've sold my TD5 and after an experience with a Discovery 4 I've just got a series 3. Not even seen it yet, collection Saturday from Inverness Scotland. I'm Southampton.

I'm keen to make it a V8, will this effect the tax exempt status?

I will use the series gearbox and axels. I want it to look correct

Anyone have any experience of this. I've seen examples taken to extreme in modifications and still claim tax exempt, how?

Thanks

Rob

Click to expand...

Simple, they don't tell anybody! You often see a Series vehicle with it's original reg number yet the body is sat on a modified Range Rover chassis using coil spring axles, Rangie engine and box. Not only should it lose it's classic tax status it should probably be on a Q plate. The annoying thing is when these vehicles are sold on to unknowing buyers.

Tig-man said:

In part answer to my question, I've read the guidance several times. Chassis change ok so long as it's the direct replacement.
Leaf springs to coil are considered substantial change. But if you argue it's to obtain disc brakes then it's safety so possibly ok.

Gearbox changes not ok

As landrover made a v8 series 3 from 1976 on then the engine change is ok.
Can you argue the v8 is environmental better. As the 2.2 is so hideously uneconomical.

Click to expand...

Can you argue the v8 is environmental better? As the 2.2 is so hideously uneconomical.
No, i don't think you can.
The 2.2 will be cleaner and conforming to more modern specs than the old V8, and if you think the 2.2 is 'hideously uneconomical' how would you describe the V8????????????

yfo866 said:

Can you argue the v8 is environmental better? As the 2.2 is so hideously uneconomical.
No, i don't think you can.
The 2.2 will be cleaner and conforming to more modern specs than the old V8, and if you think the 2.2 is 'hideously uneconomical' how would you describe the V8????????????

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Then you have the constant worry of the V8 eating something in the drive train.

@Tig-man
Don’t bother with the v8 they are hard to fit,work on(no space in engine bay) and then you will moan about the brakes been crap.
Enjoy life in the slow lane

yfo866 said:

Simple, they don't tell anybody! You often see a Series vehicle with it's original reg number yet the body is sat on a modified Range Rover chassis using coil spring axles, Rangie engine and box. Not only should it lose it's classic tax status it should probably be on a Q plate. The annoying thing is when these vehicles are sold on to unknowing buyers.

Click to expand...

That's your opinion and not one based on actual fact.... there are many different ways of modding a vehicle.

For example, a Tdi engine is as akin to a 2.25 engine a 4.6 Rover V8 is to an early 3.5

The Tdi uses essentially the same block as the earlier engine, so could quite justifiably be seen as the same engine, just an evolved state. Same as a 4.6 RV8 is quite different in many ways to an early 3.5, but most would say they are the same engine.

Suspension - has it really changed? I don't see independent suspension being fitted? Both systems are live axle suspension systems. The spring type has changed, but you could argue fitting paraboics or dual rate coil springs also does this. And there is, as I pointed out above, no definition of the word "modification" or any of the components.

It is also not illegal to repair a chassis. As you aren't transferring the chassis number over, you could say you used scrap metal to repair the chassis legs. At the end of the day, a large proportion of the chassis will be Series such as the crossmember and all the out riggers.

yfo866 said:

Can you argue the v8 is environmental better? As the 2.2 is so hideously uneconomical.
No, i don't think you can.
The 2.2 will be cleaner and conforming to more modern specs than the old V8, and if you think the 2.2 is 'hideously uneconomical' how would you describe the V8????????????

Click to expand...

Where is your data that the 2.25 is cleaner.....

I think the answer is modder beware and buyer be even more aware.
It's one things making changes to a vehicle you own for your own reasons and taking on any possible risk.
It is quite another to spend hard earned cash on a vehicle you think is legit only to find later that you have bought an expensive can of worms.
I read a while back of a guy who imported a very expensive Series from Africa that had been fully refurbished at great expense.
Only to find it could not be UK registered as no official records existed.
Not what we are talking about but it just shows things can go wrong.