Suddenly no starter??

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dfossil

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I started to do an oil change - popped the F1 2005 td4 up on ramps - dropped off the engine tray - drained the oil - replaced plug - then wanted to roll it off the ramp to get it level (didn't change the filter or replace the tray 'cos this was to be a flush change only) - flicked the starter and nudged it in reverse to roll off ramps - like no more than tickover revs for about 2 seconds - stopped engine. Filled with oil - hit starter - NOTHING ????????????
I don't believe in co-incidence so I don't think the starter has actually died.
All I get is the clock goes out and the heater fan stops running but the headlghts don't dim.
Has some ECU picked up a momentary lack of oil pressure and inhibited the starting?
I put my cheapo OBDII on and it says engine light ok no stored faults.
While writing this I left it with the battery diconnected - went out after a couple of minutes and coupled the battery - WOW - Starter - but engine does not start.
All dash lights go out except Battery, door open, Engine light and oil - turn starter and oil light goes out.
Disconnected battery again - left a few minutes more - reconnect - BINGO - she runs.
Anyone actually know what happened here?
 
Something got spiked, if you started and didn’t rev, the alternator probably didn’t cut in to charge, and something didn’t like a reverse feed, but running even momentarily without oil, ‘‘tis a cardinal sin”
 
Well I start on no throttle every time so that on it's own isn't likely to have spiked anything this time
 
Coincidence does happen for sure, especially on vehicles of the age of our FLs. Starter contacts, oldish battery, corroded connections etc all seem possibilities to me. Also, I'm with nodge on the above. I'm not sure why you'd ever want to turn the engine over after draining the oil.
 
dfossil said:
I started to do an oil change - popped the F1 2005 td4 up on ramps - dropped off the engine tray - drained the oil - replaced plug - then wanted to roll it off the ramp to get it level (didn't change the filter or replace the tray 'cos this was to be a flush change only) - flicked the starter and nudged it in reverse to roll off ramps - like no more than tickover revs for about 2 seconds - stopped engine. Filled with oil - hit starter - NOTHING ????????????
You didn’t just idle for two seconds - you put it under some load to get it off the ramp stops - naughty boy.
I don't believe in co-incidence so I don't think the starter has actually died.
All I get is the clock goes out and the heater fan stops running but the headlghts don't dim.
From a recent start without time to charge up again? Is your battery/alternator OK?
Has some ECU picked up a momentary lack of oil pressure and inhibited the starting?
My M47 guide says the EDC only knows about cranking from a crank sensor signal. It’s the immob ECU that can inhibit cranking, and I doubt it’s interfering here. As far as I can find out, there’s no inhibition of cranking/starting from the oil pressure sensor.
I put my cheapo OBDII on and it says engine light ok no stored faults.
They often say that.
While writing this I left it with the battery diconnected - went out after a couple of minutes and coupled the battery - WOW - Starter - but engine does not start.
Battery has had time to recover a little? But not enough to start? Also, your hydraulic lifters might have been empty and altering timing...
All dash lights go out except Battery, door open, Engine light and oil - turn starter and oil light goes out.
Disconnected battery again - left a few minutes more - reconnect - BINGO - she runs.
Anyone actually know what happened here?
Click to expand...

Odd. When describing starting faults, it helps to differentiate cranking from starting, ie engine turning vs engine running. No-crank, or crank-no-start.

If you’re handy with a multimeter, check your battery voltage after a good run then overnight rest (>12.4-12.6), also what it drops to during cranking (>9.5 V), and the alternator charge voltage (14V good) and AC ripple( <500 mV).

I change oil on ramps too, but I put in just under 6L (for oil+filter), THEN move it off the ramps for final adjustment of level/ top-up.
 
Well - I don't know either - so I am guessing. I imagine the trucks brain recorded that at the instant the engine stopped there was low pressure - so it inhibited a restart. Then I guess after a hard reset (disconnecting the battery) it enabled the starter motor but not the engine - I then cranked it till it saw oil pressure. Then a further hard reset got past that final inhibit - or as there was then oil pressure at switch-off it allowed normal service to be resumed.
I don't like guessing as it can confuse others when it's wrong. - which is why I asked that question - does anybody actually know.......
But if that's wot 'appened - CLEVER LITTLE TRUCKS ARN'T THEY (;-))>
 
Nodge68 said:
Don't know. Odd one that. It's not wise running the engine without oil though. ;)
Click to expand...
Yeah -I know - if it had been manual not auto I would have cranked it back the 3" it needed to start off down my ramps but as it's the presence of oil that keeps components apart - not the car's oil pressure - the pressure being required to ensure supply and cooling - I am not too uncomfortable with the 2 seconds or so I needed to kick it to the slope of the ramp - But as guineafowl21 said -I could just have bunged some in first.
 
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dfossil said:
Well - I don't know either - so I am guessing. I imagine the trucks brain recorded that at the instant the engine stopped there was low pressure - so it inhibited a restart. Then I guess after a hard reset (disconnecting the battery) it enabled the starter motor but not the engine - I then cranked it till it saw oil pressure. Then a further hard reset got past that final inhibit - or as there was then oil pressure at switch-off it allowed normal service to be resumed.
I don't like guessing as it can confuse others when it's wrong. - which is why I asked that question - does anybody actually know.......
But if that's wot 'appened - CLEVER LITTLE TRUCKS ARN'T THEY (;-))>
Click to expand...
The way to find out would be to disconnect the oil pressure sensor (assuming that will give a ‘low pressure’ signal - check it makes the oil light come on) and try a run-stop as you did on the ramps.

It’s worth working this out as a faulty oil pressure sensor could be another cause of Td4 non-starts.

Doesn’t the immob ECU throw a light with an engine/key symbol if it’s inhibiting starting?
 
guineafowl21 said:
It’s worth working this out as a faulty oil pressure sensor could be another cause of Td4 non-starts.
Click to expand...
Good point mate -
I did not notice any extra warning lights when the starter or engine start were inhibited - not even the yellow engine symbol with an exclamation mark on the right which breifly illuminates at ignition on.
Where the hell is the oil pressure switch anyway - I had a quick look at rave and it started with "remove starter motor" - so I will pass on that suggestion for now.
 
You should always change the filter even for a flush. My dad did that once about 40 years ago The engine seized shortly after. We think the new oil was thicker and didn't go through the old clogged filter.
 
Ugh - troubles back - this time nothing to do with oil as I have been running this week after my final oil and filter change and all was sweet.
Then:-
Today stopped after a short run - went to restart - nothing - after much jiggling of relays and fuses and multiple battery disconnects got starter cranking but no start.
Got towed back home and plugged in the OBD11 again - this time got to "no vehicle response/power" and no further.
Dash lights are different too - battery symbol - temp on full scale with red light - no oil light at all - yellow hill descent symbol and yellow tc symbol - that's all -
Dying ECU?
No lights on the auto gearshift either but I can't remember if the red lights only work when the engine running or not
 
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WHOOPS - EGG ON FACE
checking what relays do what under the bonnet against the symbols on the cover and saw that (after earlier removing them to check cleanliness of contacts) one yellow one was in a socket with no function - IDIOTCHILD had plugged it back in the wrong socket - put in the adjacent empty (correct) one and she started - all dash lights working correctly again. OBDII working again - no faults shown
PHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
However - I am still none the wiser as to why once again it just failed initially to crank - and then later to crank but not start - and eventually back to all good
 
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