Starting trouble - Must be starter circuit?

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:scratching_chin: landy wiring is amazing!!

i'd be checking all the wiring on the landy after you sort that! i've found some very scary bodges, swivel balls tighted finger tight, +12V wire direct from the battery hanging down at the brake pedal with bare end!! :eek:

i'd do what abdy else says, test the starter motor first and if it is ok wire it up as it would be per standard. the second starter solenoid on the bulkhead shouldnt be there!!
 
Are you sure it's a 2.25, it looks as if it could be a 2.5, perhaps out of a Sherpa? That would give glow plugs designed to be wired in parallel, whereas who ever put the engine in has used the Ser II wiring for glow plugs wired in series.
I suspect you're going to have to go back to square one and re wire the staret & glow plugs from scratch, after finding what system you have.
Overall photos of the engine, from both sides, would help identification.
 
Davec said:
Are you sure it's a 2.25, it looks as if it could be a 2.5, perhaps out of a Sherpa? That would give glow plugs designed to be wired in parallel, whereas who ever put the engine in has used the Ser II wiring for glow plugs wired in series.
I suspect you're going to have to go back to square one and re wire the staret & glow plugs from scratch, after finding what system you have.
Overall photos of the engine, from both sides, would help identification.
Click to expand...

Sure thing Dave i'll take photos of the engine tomorrow, i'll also check the Engine number on the V5 too, although it does have a MOT and would fail if different.

Thanks, John
 
johnyelland1234 said:
Sure thing Dave i'll take photos of the engine tomorrow, i'll also check the Engine number on the V5 too, although it does have a MOT and would fail if different.

Thanks, John
Click to expand...

Some close-up photos of one of the glow plugs would help us work out what whether they are parallel or series types. I'd say the coil is glowing because there is a short circit in the wiring to the glow plugs. The smoke coming from the starter solonoid on the starter motor is probably either due to a fault with that solonoid or a bad connection (unbolt the cables and clean up the connections with sand paper). You should not have two starter solonoids operating the starter motor. I can't tell, but the solonoid on the bulkhead may just be powering the glow plugs - which is non-standard, but not a bad idea.
 
Well, I checked the Engine number and the Chassis number and it says that the engine is a 2.25 diesel engine and the chassis was a Petrol 24v Lightweight.

So im guessing someone converted it to a 12v and also changed the engine and fuel system, which is probably why the wiring is as bad as it is.

Heres the photos of the engine including glow plugs:







And heres a close up of my starter solenoid:



The solenoid on the bulkhead does indeed power the glow plugs, the glow plug switch inside the cab doesn't work unless its on and connected properly.

Also, when I removed the old one, for some reason i had to connect it back up and never put it back on the bulk head (so not earthed) when I tried starting, I found the solenoid and connections sparked alot. Meaning that the current for the starter motor is indeed going through this solenoid.

The starter turns but very slowly when starting and perhaps it needs alot more power.
 
I don't think it's the MoTers job to check engine numbers, just the Vin. The V5 is a very unreliable way of getting the engine number, not many people bother getting it changed later in a vehicles life.
Anyway false alarm, the manifold didn't look quite right, but it was just taken from an unusual angle, it looks like a 2.25.
However it looks as if the glow plugs are wired in parallel, a popular conversion, but you will need to ensure you buy the right ones when you need replacements. I don't know much about diesels, but I believe they make the resistor redundant, so could be a cause of some of your problems (I'll stand corrected on that if needs be)
I'm more concerned about your brake servo, does it work? Where does the pipe go to? You do not appear to have the correct manifold for servo brakes. It does look as if you have a pulley driven vacuum pump (perhaps the engine is from a Taxi, but the obvious connection does not have a pipe on it.
 
The position of the fuel injector pump indicates that the engine is a 2 1/4 diesel. You need to find out for sure which type of glow plugs you have because the two types are wired differently. Remove one of the plugs. This is what the original series plugs look like:

LAND ROVER SERIES 1 2 2A & EARLY 3 GLOW PLUGS SET OF 4 on eBay, also, Land Rover, Car Parts, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 11-Jan-09 19:07:03 GMT)

and this is what the parallel type plugs (as fitted to 90/110 2.5 diesel engines but a popular conversion for earlier engines) look like

LAND ROVER SERIES 3 / 90 110 HEATER GLOW PLUGS X 4 on eBay, also, Land Rover, Car Parts, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 07-Feb-09 19:37:07 GMT)

If you have the parallel type plugs then there is no need to use the coil or a solonoid with them because the 90/110 2.5 diesels did not - just power them straight off the switch. See the wiring diagram below p68,69 component 58 and 74:

http://www.stage1v8.net/manuals/Def_90_110_WSM_book5.pdf

I have the series glow plugs on mine and I put the glow plugs on for 15sec and watched the coil - it did not get red hot. It was just about cool enough to touch even. If you have series plugs make sure the cables are connected propperly to the plugs and that the ceramic insulators are in place.
 
I currently have the later 90 + 110 heater plugs on this landy.

Although I did buy a brand new set of the earlier ones, but couldn't get them to work from the battery?

Anyway, I undid all the wiring from the extra solenoid as i was only seeing 3v for some reason. Now theres 12v going to everything including the starter solenoid.

Now, look at the picture below, the blue arrows are circuits that only receive 5 or 6v when I turn the key. The red ones are recieving about 12.3v



By johnyelland1234

The Bolt and Nut of the blue arrow is what is glowing red when I try to start it.

As the solenoid is only outputting 5-6v to the starter motor, could this be my problem?

Is this completely down to the starter solenoid or could a bad earth cause this?

Thanks
John
 
There should be a short earth lead running from one of the starter mounting bolts to the chassis. I doubt its absence would result in the symptoms you are having, but it won't help after you've sorted them.
 
I'd undo all the electrical connections onto that solonoid and clean them up with sand paper, put it back together and try starting it. If it's still smoking then you'll need a new solonoid (a proper solonoid that is, to replace the one shown in the photo above). You don't need that other solonoid on your bulkhead. The voltage at the solonoid will drop when the starter is cranking, because of the very high currents and the internal resistance in the battery and the cables. I don't think the voltage should be dropping quite that low. Taking off all the earth straps and cleaning them up would be a good idea too.
 
Ok, ill clean all the cables, re earth everything and give it another go. Then if it still gives me trouble i'll order a new starter solenoid for the starter.

Thanks again
 
looking at the picture you have got a pre engaged starter fitted and you also have a solonoid fastend to the bulk head, am i missing something here as why is there a need for 2 solonoids 1 on top of the pre engaged starter and 1 fitted to bulk head. that looks to me like the owner before you had a problem with getting a proper starter or had a problem along that line and replaced it with is own modification some thing is not what it seems
 
i used to have to start my diesel by bridging the solenoid nut that sticks out to the earth that sticks out of the starter motor with a spanner!!!, a lot of sparks fly but it did used to start it up (helps if someone is turning the key at the same time) and i take no responsibility for any shocks you might get (i didnt get any when i did it though) as everyone is saying take off that 2nd solenoid it shouldnt be there, you should have the big thick wire with a sort of plate on the end of it joining the positive terminal of the battery to the solenoid with 3 or 4 other live wires on the solenoid and thats it for wires on the solenoid, you should have an earth strap goin from the starter motor to the chassis (all earthings have to be clean and tightly connected on a diesel or else they wont work) , ill send some pics of my diesel in the next few days to show how it should be connected.
 
hyland770 said:
i used to have to start my diesel by bridging the solenoid nut that sticks out to the earth that sticks out of the starter motor with a spanner!!!, a lot of sparks fly but it did used to start it up (helps if someone is turning the key at the same time) and i take no responsibility for any shocks you might get (i didnt get any when i did it though) as everyone is saying take off that 2nd solenoid it shouldnt be there, you should have the big thick wire with a sort of plate on the end of it joining the positive terminal of the battery to the solenoid with 3 or 4 other live wires on the solenoid and thats it for wires on the solenoid, you should have an earth strap goin from the starter motor to the chassis (all earthings have to be clean and tightly connected on a diesel or else they wont work) , ill send some pics of my diesel in the next few days to show how it should be connected.
Click to expand...

That'd be good i'd appreciate that.
 
hyland770 said:
i used to have to start my diesel by bridging the solenoid nut that sticks out to the earth that sticks out of the starter motor with a spanner!!!, a lot of sparks fly but it did used to start it up (helps if someone is turning the key at the same time) and i take no responsibility for any shocks you might get (i didnt get any when i did it though) as everyone is saying take off that 2nd solenoid it shouldnt be there, you should have the big thick wire with a sort of plate on the end of it joining the positive terminal of the battery to the solenoid with 3 or 4 other live wires on the solenoid and thats it for wires on the solenoid, you should have an earth strap goin from the starter motor to the chassis (all earthings have to be clean and tightly connected on a diesel or else they wont work) , ill send some pics of my diesel in the next few days to show how it should be connected.
Click to expand...

A good idea to do that actually. If it starts O.K. with the spanner accross the terminals you'll know it's the starter solonoid at fault.
 
Well, I tried to start the land rover with a knife by crossing the terminals.

The starter turned consistently and evenly but the landrover still didn't start, after holding the glow plug button down for a while.

The knife is now non existant.

Sometimes, when trying to bridge the connections, instead of turning the engine I could just hear something spinning quietly (which I assume is the starter motor), but nothing happened. Then after taking the knife off and putting it back on it would then turn again.

The cranking handle which came with the landrover, can these be used on diesel engines? Or is there no point in attempting that?

Thanks, John
 
you can try it mate but u'll be there for a very long time!. managed to start a petrol once but was not easy!
sounds like your starter is playing up, i'd get a new one to be sure. then only fit the main supply feed from the battery and the starter wire and see if it works nicely on the key. if ok then worry about your glow plugs.
i take it the feed for the plug solenoid is taken from the starter? should be on the main terminal with the main battery feed.
the output of the solenoid to the plugs and the switch wire to the smaller terminal.
 
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