starting problem

GrumpyGel said:

That makes sense - see post #20.

Click to expand...

"Incidentally, within the Relay housing, the Fuse F1 feed does also appear to feed into a "Heated Oxygen Sensor" relay (what ever that is!) - but looking at the wiring diagram, that relay does not appear to be supplying powering anything!".

Yup, lets hope the answer has already been suggested.

Fingers crossed.

[/URL]

This is the picture one of you sent me. Ive marked the bits i have replace. Not sure if this will help you diagnose the problem but worth a try.

stebo88 said:

[/URL]

This is the picture one of you sent me. Ive marked the bits i have replace. Not sure if this will help you diagnose the problem but worth a try.

Click to expand...

ok mate will have a good look through it and see if I can think of anything for u

found this , think some has been posted already but want to see what the sequence is

DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION
4.34 FREELANDER 02MY
CHARGING AND STARTING – K SERIES
DESCRIPTION
Starting
The starting system on the vehicle comprises a 12 volt starter motor which drives the engine
to start the combustion process. The starter converts electrical energy into mechanical
power. The vehicle electrical system must be capable of supplying sufficient power to enable
the engine to be cranked.
Charging
The charging system comprises a battery and an alternator. The battery must be of a
sufficient capacity to operate the starter motor and operate various electrical systems in the
vehicle. The alternator charges the battery when the engine is running and increases its
output as demand on the battery increases.
The instrument pack incorporates a charge warning lamp which illuminates when there is no
output or a low output from the alternator. For a detailed description of the charging and
starting system, refer to the Engine Management Systems – MEMS section of the System
Description and Operation Workshop manual.
OPERATION
General
Feed from the positive battery terminal (C0192) is supplied to fusible link 1, fusible link 3,
fuse 10 and the main relay (C0632) on an R wire. All are located within the engine
compartment fuse box. The battery (C0192) also provides a feed to the starter motor
solenoid (C0178) on an R wire.
Fusible link 1 is connected in series with fusible link 7, which is also located within the engine
compartment fuse box.
Fusible link 3 (C0571) is connected to the ignition switch (C0028) by an N wire. When the
ignition switch is turned to the 'ignition' position, current flows across the switch (C0028) to
fuse 6, fuse 8, and fuse 19 of the passenger compartment fuse box (C0588) on a G wire.
When the ignition switch is turned to the 'crank' position, current flows across the switch
(C0028) to fuse 5 of the passenger compartment fuse box (C0588) on a WR wire.
Starting
Main Relay
Fuse 6 of the passenger compartment fuse box (C0581) provides an ignition feed to the
Engine Control Module (ECM) (C0913) on a W wire. When the ECM receives this feed, it
energises the main relay by providing an earth path for the relay coil (C0576) on a WK wire.
The energised main relay is now able to provide a feed to the fuel pump relay. The fuel pump
relay is also located in the engine compartment fuse box.



DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION
FREELANDER 02MY 4.35
For a detailed description of main relay operation, refer to the Engine Management
Systems – MEMS section of the System Description and Operation Workshop manual.
Inertia Switch
Fuse 10 of the engine compartment fuse box (C0575) provides a constant battery feed to
the inertia switch (C0123) on a G wire. The inertia switch is a normally closed switch. If the
inertia switch hasn't been tripped, current flows across the switch (C0123) to the fuel pump
relay (C0575) on a GU wire.
The inertia switch (C0123) also provides a feed to the Central Control Unit (CCU) (C0428)
on a UG wire. For more information on the CCU, refer to the Control Units section of the
Workshop manual, and the Anti-theft Alarm and Central Door Locking (CDL) section of
this manual.
+ANTI-THEFT ALARM AND CENTRAL DOOR LOCKING (CDL).
Fuel Pump Relay
The fuel pump relay coil receives a feed from the energised main relay (see above). The
earth path for the relay coil (C0575) is controlled by the ECM (C0913) on a BP wire. The
ECM will energise the fuel pump relay when it receives an ignition feed from fuse 6 of the
passenger compartment fuse box (C0581) on a W wire.
The energised fuel pump relay (C0572) provides a feed to the fuel pump (C0114) on a WP
wire. The pump (C0114) is earthed on a B wire.
Starter Relay
Fuse 5 of the passenger compartment fuse box (C0581) provides an ignition switch 'crank'
feed to the immobilisation ECU (C0059) on a WR wire. If the vehicle has been successfully
re-mobilised, the immobilisation ECU (C0059) provides a feed to the starter relay coil
(C0576) on a RW wire. The starter relay is located in the engine compartment fuse box, and
is earthed (C0576) on a B wire. A battery feed from fusible link 7 is now able to flow across
the starter relay switch contacts (C0572) to the starter motor solenoid (C0179) on an NR
wire.
For a detailed description of the immobilisation ECU, refer to the Engine Immobilisation
section of this manual.
+ENGINE IMMOBILISATION.
Starter Motor and Starter Motor Solenoid
The starter motor solenoid coil (C0179) receives a feed from the energised starter motor
relay (C0572) on an NR wire (see above). The energised starter motor solenoid allows a
battery feed (C0178) to flow across the switch contacts and power the starter motor.

As Longbolt suggested ...

Longbolt said:

Unplug the O2 sensor then start the car. Check the wiring isn't melted/wound up. The heater on the sensor can blow fuses. I believe a couple of MGF's have had this problem...so maybe worth a shot?

Click to expand...

In my original post #20 comment, iI stated...

Longbolt said:

"Incidentally, within the Relay housing, the Fuse F1 feed does also appear to feed into a "Heated Oxygen Sensor" relay (what ever that is!) - but looking at the wiring diagram, that relay does not appear to be supplying powering anything!".

Click to expand...

But of course that particular wiring diagram was for Charging & Starting - so it didn't show the wires going from the "Heated Oxygen Sensor" on to where ever - which as Longbolt says is the O2 sensor.

So, the O2 sensor does appear to be your next test.

sorry here's the key for the above pic

GrumpyGel said:

As Longbolt suggested ...



In my original post #20 comment, iI stated...



But of course that particular wiring diagram was for Charging & Starting - so it didn't show the wires going from the "Heated Oxygen Sensor" on to where ever - which as Longbolt says is the O2 sensor.

So, the O2 sensor does appear to be your next test.

Click to expand...

i think anything is worth a go, lol

know it would drive me up the wall

just put a pic in there of the management ecu

i dont know why i thought the engine compartment fuse was a 10 amp instead of a 30 amp, but then relaised the 10 amp is the internal sized fuse

think though unfortunatly if this doesnt work think as weve all suspected may be the auto electrician

GrumpyGel said:

As Longbolt suggested ...



In my original post #20 comment, iI stated...



But of course that particular wiring diagram was for Charging & Starting - so it didn't show the wires going from the "Heated Oxygen Sensor" on to where ever - which as Longbolt says is the O2 sensor.

So, the O2 sensor does appear to be your next test.

Click to expand...

I will try the 02 sensor in a couple of hours if i can find it lol. Il have a look in my manual n see where it is located n how to unplug it. Cheers will let you all know how it goes.

stebo88 said:

I will try the 02 sensor in a couple of hours if i can find it lol. Il have a look in my manual n see where it is located n how to unplug it. Cheers will let you all know how it goes.

Click to expand...

You should find the connector knocking around the lower coolant bleed screw area at the right of the engine almost under the dizzy cap.

The O2 sensor will be found (to check the wiring from that as well) screwed into the exhaust manifold at the bit where all branches go together.

Taking the heat shield off will make it easier to see. Seem to remember its 19 mil if you need to spanner it off, but maybe wrong.

Longbolt said:

You should find the connector knocking around the lower coolant bleed screw area at the right of the engine almost under the dizzy cap.

The O2 sensor will be found (to check the wiring from that as well) screwed into the exhaust manifold at the bit where all branches go together.

Taking the heat shield off will make it easier to see. Seem to remember its 19 mil if you need to spanner it off, but maybe wrong.

Click to expand...

[/URL]

So i found the o2 sensor and it looked a little dirty around the casing but looked ok on the inside. I unplugged it and started her up but the fuse still blew .

Not sure whether ive mentioned this or whether it helps in any way but some times when i start the car the fuse doesnt blow straight away. Sometimes it takes 5 or 6 seconds then blows. Its not often most of the time its straight away.

stebo88 said:

[/URL]

So i found the o2 sensor and it looked a little dirty around the casing but looked ok on the inside. I unplugged it and started her up but the fuse still blew .

Not sure whether ive mentioned this or whether it helps in any way but some times when i start the car the fuse doesnt blow straight away. Sometimes it takes 5 or 6 seconds then blows. Its not often most of the time its straight away.

Click to expand...

Bugga!

Thought we might have had something there. I enclose a handy link if things become too much.

National Institute of Mental Health - Organization - The NIH Almanac - National Institutes of Health (NIH)

Am sure someone will crack it for you, or else its a decent auto electrician.

Longbolt said:

Bugga!

Thought we might have had something there. I enclose a handy link if things become too much.

National Institute of Mental Health - Organization - The NIH Almanac - National Institutes of Health (NIH)

Am sure someone will crack it for you, or else its a decent auto electrician.

Click to expand...

yep could be the nuthouse , lol

I wonder if

removing the small 12v plug from the back of the starter and also the pos lead from it

using a second battery to start the car to see if the fuse blows , to completely eliminate the starter

strange it keeps blowing the 30 amp fuse ,

wonder if pulling all the internal fuses out apart from the ones u need to start the car would help

also could pull some fuses not needed u der the bonnet if it will still slow the car to start ??

could it be the immobilser as that's linked in ???

by removing the fuses to virtually everything can then eliminate them and take them out of the equation ??

radio, clock, lights, alarm , heated rear window , heater, air con , inertia switch , electric windows , indicators

just a thought as then reconnecting the starter motor to see if it still blows the fuse with virtually every fuse gone

if it doesn't blow , can then add the fuses back in one by one u til it blows again and noting that circuit ???

gstuart said:

yep could be the nuthouse , lol

I wonder if

removing the small 12v plug from the back of the starter and also the pos lead from it

using a second battery to start the car to see if the fuse blows , to completely eliminate the starter

strange it keeps blowing the 30 amp fuse ,

wonder if pulling all the internal fuses out apart from the ones u need to start the car would help

also could pull some fuses not needed u der the bonnet if it will still slow the car to start ??

could it be the immobilser as that's linked in ???

by removing the fuses to virtually everything can then eliminate them and take them out of the equation ??

radio, clock, lights, alarm , heated rear window , heater, air con , inertia switch , electric windows , indicators

just a thought as then reconnecting the starter motor to see if it still blows the fuse with virtually every fuse gone

if it doesn't blow , can then add the fuses back in one by one u til it blows again and noting that circuit ???

Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan to me.

Did you try this... (it will take the starter relay, O2 sensor, O2 Relay and wiring to them out of the equation).

GrumpyGel said:

As you're happy jumping the starter solenoid. Disconnect the wire from Fuse F1 to Starter Relay at the fuse - this will take the relay and wire out of the equation. Then Jump the solenoid from battery.

If it still blows the problem must be in the fuse box (presumably!) - not further down the line in the wires/Relay.

Click to expand...

Longbolt said:

Sounds like a plan to me.

Click to expand...

just trying to think of a solution

as there's so many circuits within the car , thought looking through the owners manual or haynes

can then pull every fuse that u don't need to start the car

thus eliminating them circuits ??

working through it then stage by stage

could an alternater do this by sending too much current into the system and overloading the fuses ??

but suppose my first port of call would be pulling every fuse I could , then start the engine and see what happens and focus then on the smaller circuits ??

Just another idea/plan b from outer space..have you taken the battery off and wire brushed all the earth tags to the right of the battery on the wing?. Check the earth plugs as well, and the one near the coolant tank/bonnet alarm switch. Once again, my bwain cell has remembered if all is not well with the earth tags/plugs it can cause all sorts of strange problems you wouldn't think possible with just a duff earth.

I think Brick already mentioned something on similar lines.

Take you 20 ish mins, and worth a shot.

Theory goes in line with your puddle adventure.

gstuart said:

just trying to think of a solution

as there's so many circuits within the car , thought looking through the owners manual or haynes

can then pull every fuse that u don't need to start the car

thus eliminating them circuits ??

working through it then stage by stage

could an alternater do this by sending too much current into the system and overloading the fuses ??

but suppose my first port of call would be pulling every fuse I could , then start the engine and see what happens and focus then on the smaller circuits ??

Click to expand...

Might be an alternator fault?..but there is a rather stupidly placed community earth tag butted up right against the headlight in that area.

That (i know for sure) gets soaked when fording/charging through puddles.

The game's afoot Watson!

Keeps him quiet anyway..lol!

Longbolt said:

Just another idea/plan b from outer space..have you taken the battery off and wire brushed all the earth tags to the right of the battery on the wing?. Check the earth plugs as well, and the one near the coolant tank/bonnet alarm switch. Once again, my bwain cell has remembered if all is not well with the earth tags/plugs it can cause all sorts of strange problems you wouldn't think possible with just a duff earth.

I think Brick already mentioned something on similar lines.

Take you 20 ish mins, and worth a shot.

Theory goes in line with your puddle adventure.

Click to expand...

there's always setting it on fire to dry it out,lol

gstuart said:

there's always setting it on fire to dry it out,lol

Click to expand...

Yup!,

We want slow mo video's from all angles when the tank goes and he walks away (again in slo mo like the yanks do in action films...hair fluttering in the blast).

Sorry, came over all strange then...must be a freudian thing...lol!

Secret wishes of a 1.8 owner and all that...

GrumpyGel said:

Did you try this... (it will take the starter relay, O2 sensor, O2 Relay and wiring to them out of the equation).

Click to expand...

I will try this next.

I have wire brushed the earths on the wing by the battery but not sure ive done the rest. I think the next thing to do is process of elimination and remove all the fuses. As for setting it on fire i think the way you guys have said will be best lol.