Freelander 1 SOLVED: td4 " P1190 Governor fuel plausibility deviation at high speed ".

ok .. rekon i've probably found the issue ..
a duff injector or two ..
will write up what happened today in a bit ( just came home now 'n need chillout time )

in the meantime .. if anyone has recommendations as to sourcing injectors ..
and as to what tools i could need for changing the myself..
i.e. mainly if i encounter a stuck in head one ..
e.g . what are those particular hammers called .. is it a 'slide hammer' ?

think my first call for injectors will be 'advanced factors'
https://www.advancedfactors.co.uk/stc4555e-fuel-injector-assembly-1343636-p.asp
( £170 each .. bosch .. brand LR2 .. 2 year warranty )
as been right happy with their products 'n service in the past ..
although .. am open to other suggestions

thanx in advance for helpful replies

i guess the sunny side to this is knowing almost for sure what the running issue is
and i guess that the injectors have lasted 194k miles is ok as well

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~ S ~

ok .. todays driving events ..

ron-box removed altogether ..
..
cleaned the bosch maf with wd40 specialis electrical contact cleaner ( leaves no residue )
seated the maf plug untill the locks cliked ..
as before hadn't managed to do that despite pushing down hard on it
set the db1 turbo controler to 'medium non-dpf' position
and noted one of the mini switches were not full 'off' as it were supposed to be
( so dpf .. no effect under 2500 rpm might have been in operation previously )

started the engine .. again did not start on the button as it always had done .
( and this got worse during the 60 mile trip once the engine had warmed up ..
( like taking 3 seconds of cranking as opposed to like 1.5. secs as usual
( i.e. counting 1 .. and .. 2 .. etc .. or 1 banana 2 banana ...
( and it didn't fire up with a bang .. sort of wheezed into life

ok the motor ran Very well .. smooth .. plenty of power
even the reluctance to accelerate unde 1800 rpm had vanished
had good response from like 1100 rpm in 3rd as it should have
no hesitation at all..
up my aprx. mile long test hill .. no traffic .. terminal mph about 3 mph lower
than with the ron-box connected ( when all was well )

only diff. between having ron-box connected .. or not ..
were like having to press the go-pedal another centimeter for a good energetic response from the engine

was right happy with the engine's performance and go-pedal response
(rons DB1 turbo controller .. modded air intake .. straight thru exhaust back box )

then back on the flat .. dual carriageway .. exited roundabout
neede to overtake a slow mover .. in 4th gear now .. booted it up to 3000 rpm
dropped it into 5th ...

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and .... CraPPola !!! .. loss of power again ..
plus the prementioned symptoms .. surging on part go-pedal ..
'dieseling' on applying part go-pedal .. so on and so forth ..
and sounding louder from engine bay on idle and part go-pedal
i.e. diesel 'knock' ..
the only diff. were that with the ron-box connected all the symptoms were much worse ..

so conclusion for now .. the extra fuel pressure be causing an injector to malfunction ..

i took a video of live injector compensation mid journey .. ( with the hawkeye )
will upload 'n post it in a while ..
( no fault codes were logged )
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end .. todays blog of driving events
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my conclusion is that very probably the issue is injector related ..

~ S ~

here's a vid of injector fuel compensation .. mid todays journey ..
coolant temp. about 72c .. a.i..temp 35c ..
audio volume be a bit low .. however the 3 rpm stages can be heard ..
idle .. 1500 rpm .. 2000 rpm


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cheers for any observational comments
as i'm not 100% sure what the numbers mean

at 2000 rpm ( no engine load ) there looks to be no compensation ..
but under that yes ..
and from observing the day's occurences ..
seems like an injector .. or injectors are malfunctioning after being subject to high rpm
and no doubt high fuel pressure ..
( so the fuel plausibility at high speed .. hawkeye ref. text .. makes some sense now )
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EDIT to add ..
anyone rekon the hp.fuel regulator might give same symptoms ??
i.e. without the hawkeye pointing directly to the regulator itself ..
( asking as that device should still be under warranty along with the hp.pump )

or does the vid. point more to the injectors ?

thanx fer watching

~ S ~

sorry vid youtube issue at moment ..
( was playing ok a bit ago )
last time i looked it were a 'draft' ..
can't remember how the yt upload n publish works ..
am off back to my channel n see if i can fix it ..
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EDIT .. vid now viewable ..
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EDIT 2 .. am thinking now the only way to suss this
be to scan live data When the engine is misbehaving ..
i.e. that's the time to read injector compensation
( just sharing a thought .. good or bad idea ? )
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EDIT 3 .. now considering the possibility of water in the fuel
been reading about the symptoms .. similar to mine
and not sure i read the signs right when i partially drained the sedimenter ..
i.e been using an additive that breaks up water in diesel ..
so what i thought were ok .. may not have been ..
be just all this happened soon after filling up at an esso station
that i'd never used for fuel before ..
will have to reinvestigate the sedimenter contents .. to be sure

~ S ~

re-drained sedimenter today ..
[ didn't really do a proper job last time ]
can say there appears to have been water in the fuel
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never seen any indication of it before in the 7years i've had the hippo
won't be filling up at that particular esso station again ..
once were enough ..
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next inline: injector leak-back test

`s`

It's normally Asda fuel that gives me problems, mostly just a bit of extra smoke, but I still go there all the time, lol.

It's normally Asda fuel that gives me problems, mostly just a bit of extra smoke .. ..

Click to expand...

mmmm ..
trouble is .. the common rail diesel design includes extremely small tolerances
[ unlike older designs like the L-series ] .. and a small amount of water can do permanent damage

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e.g. .. ( from : https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/why-injectors-fail-and.291563/ )

" Pitting and Cavitation: Pitting is caused by free water flashing on hot metal surfaces. Cavitation is caused by vapor bubbles rapidly contracting (imploding) when exposed to sudden high pressure, which causes them to condense back into a liquid. These water droplets impact a small area with great force, causing surface fatigue and erosion.

Spalling: Occurs due to hydrogen embrittlement and pressure. Water is forced into microscopic cracks in metal surfaces. Then, under extreme pressure, it decomposes and releases hydrogen in a “mini-explosion” which enlarges the cracks and creates wear particles. "

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went for another test drive today .. 50 mile ..
[ no hard acceleration en route ]
ran perfect .. .. until just as i neared home ..
on final hill climb the symptoms reoccurred ..
'nowt dramatic .. subtle indications ..
plus .. engine sounded like pre-common rail types ..

judging the engine's behaviour relative to terrain ..
i'm now betting myself @95% certainty it's injector related
and .. there be a diesel injector specialist nearby ..
no need to go to a LR place

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no diesel in engine oil .. think my sense of smell be ok .. '''''''' ;-)
no odd exhaust smoke..
rekon leaking-back-to tank and not-holding-pressure be the root cause ..
ran right nice without the ron-box as well ..
will probably save on fuel 'n tyre wear without it ..

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~ s ~

hd3 said:

no diesel in engine oil .. think my sense of smell be ok .. '''''''' ;-)

Click to expand...

That's good. You are getting closer to resolving the issue and you don't have Covid. Win win.

hi .. 'n greetings .. :-}

have emailed a local mobile mechanic to see if they'd do a leak-back test ..
[ i want visual confirmation before buying injectors and arranging replacement work ]
so .. for now done a bit of cleaning and wd40 spraying around the injectors ..

as i might attempt injector removal myself .. a couple of questions
[ i have searched the forum for related threads .. seen some helpful ones ]

is this puller tool a good one ??
" Sealey VS2049 Bosch/Delphi Diesel Injector Puller Set " ( £80 on amazon )
https://www.sealey.co.uk/product/5637205086/boschdelphi-diesel-injector-puller-set

i.e. 'Sealey' be a known brand for d.i.y. tools ..
and others i've seen are of unknown quality ..
plus .. one lz thread was 'help messed up job'
and the cause looked like a removal kit not suited
'n part of the airbox needed cutting away ;[

and regarding :
' loosening injector clamps then turning over engine
to help loosen the injectors '
so i take it that's ok to remove the electrical plugs to do that if needed ?
i.e. am not going to fry some electrical component hopefully ?

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[ amazon link causes issues .. trying to find an alternative .. .. ]

thanx ..
~ S ~

A look through this video may be helpful to you. Ignore that it is BMW oriented, it is basically the same engine as the TD4 in the Freelander 1.

Comeinhandynow Has some useful injector information for you in his Freelander videos.
https://www.youtube.com/user/comeinhandynow
Sealey are generally reasonable quality tools, but not always.

A look through this video may be helpful to you. Ignore that it is BMW oriented, it is basically the same engine as the TD4 in the Freelander 1.

Click to expand...

cheers for YT link .. will watch it for sure ..
vid looks sharp .. narrative voiceover within tolerance ;-]
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~ S ~

Sealey are generally reasonable quality tools, but not always.

Click to expand...

yeah i get same impression from reading posts ..
device looks solid .. n mentions a connector for inside the injector as well ..
i've got some 'sealey' tools .. but couldn't name them offhand

off to watch vid
` s `

kool vid.
many good points raised & ' solutions ' ..
off to search for that particular grease ..
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`s`

There is also a thread on here where a member reconditioned injectors.

There is also a thread on here where a member reconditioned injectors.

Click to expand...

belated 'cheers' GG .. ;-}

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ok .. looking for some advise here ..

have just done a leak-back test :
first .. took hippo for a 20 mile drive
and with engine nice 'n warm .. did the test
[ idle rpm only ]

here's a 3 minute vid of the test .. [ questions to follow ;-]
the bottles are 105 ml .. .. top mark be 10.5 ..
2 minutes in .. the 2nd bottle [ left to right] is at the 3.5 mark ..



couple of question:
is the leak back from number 2 .. too-much ?
i.e. in that it would cause running issues as described in previous posts
and ..
are the other 3 injectors leaking back excessively ?

here's a pic .. after 3 minutes 'n shutdown :
second bottle be just about at the '6' mark ..


ok ... since the 50 mile drive .. and associated running symptoms .. [ post no.48 ]
have made 2 more 50 mile runs ... recently .. [ now at lower ambient temps ]

1st one ... ran fine 'till gave it some pedal up a long-ish hill .. in 5th gear ..
300yard cruise downhill to roundabout .. then immediately up another steep incline
at which point it started to be unresponsive if more power where asked of it ..
kept it in 4th [ normally a 5th gear incline ] ..
after that it ran fine all the way home ... [ driven rather gently .. like 55mph max ]

2nd one ... same route .. kept to 50mph up first long hill ..
no issues for the rest of the trip ..

**** i stopped once 'n shutdown engine for about 45 minutes on both trips
and on restart .. cranking remained long-ish .. like .. building-up-fuel-pressure-wind up
{ literally twice as long as in the following vid. ]

here's today's warm-start [ after leak- back test .. maybe an hour after shutdown ]
````


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so i guess the question be :
would the leak-back amounts be enough to cause prev. running symptoms ?
[ refer to post numero '1' .. maybe i should have done the l.b.test back when ambient temps were hot ]

should i replace no.2 injector .. [ and no.1 ? ] ..
or all 4 .. ?

[ should i look elsewhere as to the initial issues culprit ?? ]

i did look for acceptable leak-back flow rates online
but came across conflicting info ..
[ 20 ml over 2 minutes = acceptable ?? ]

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edit: cold startup remains on-the-button
the warm starts are very long compared to how it used to warm start
prior to current 'issue' ..
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and .. off now to check for fault codes
i suspect there are none .. .. [ edit: checked .. no codes ]
```
current plan .. replace injector 2 asap .. 'n maybe no. 1
leave replacing 3 'n 4 'till springtime [ working outdoors ]

[edit]
and just a recap : all parts of the fuel system . except the injectors
were 'new' LR-parts .. 12 months ago
injectors be at 192+k miles ..
cam sensor be 'new' .. recently ..

```
thanx for reading
` S `

and .. NO .. i did not colour the bottle-bar pink and turquoise .. .. honest ;-]
[ in yt.vid ]
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be an .. iphone-sun-bar material .. conspiracy
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before pulling the injectors ..
much to be said for prior-soaking the lot in wd40 ..
'n working on a warm engine ..

all 4 simply lifted out right easy by hand ..

'n they look fairly clean as well .. no signs of blow-by .

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`s`

installed the new injectors today ..
[ and a brass fuel return kit ]

happy to say .. engine fired up almost immediately ..
[ was worried about air in the rail > injector fuel lines ]
idles smoothly .. .. no leaks ..
even the slight vibe at 1200rpm .. always there since i bought the hippo
has been banished ..

yet to take it for a test drive ..
hopefully .. when i do ..
i'll be able to insert 'solved' in the post header ..

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[ edit .. mon.19th.oct.] .. tested ..
and .. no :-[ .. performance issue still exists
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a.t.b.
`s`

just updating this saga ..
can't yet write 'solved' in the header as yet to road-test work .. no mot at mo. :-/
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anyhow .. last nov. decided to replace the hp.pump fuel regulator ..
sourced a genuine bosch regulator .. n started to dismantle bits 'n pieces ..
'n all went wrong .. mostly my fault ..
managed to round off the front starter nut and bolt ..
[ i should have used 6pt sockets .. not 12pt .. ]
but .. even with the specialist irwin sockets ..
i couldn't get enough leverage on bolt to budge it at all ..

in the meantime managed to undo the two regulator bolts ..
then .. another big mistake ..
as the regulator wouldn't come out by hand ..
i levered it out .. and in the process broke the regulator shaft ..
part of which remained inside the h.p.pump :-[[

so .. what to do ?
get it recovered to a garage .. possibly needing to replace the hp.pump
or persevere at home .. in the street ..
hoping i could get the starter removed and therefore get a good grip on the broken regulator shaft
'n hoping that could be pulled out without leaving debris inside the pump

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things got left .. as the weather weren't friendly fer working outside ..
' i had to come up with a starter bolt removal method ..
i ended up deciding to take a hacksaw to the offending nut ..
3 sessions with this hacksaw .. and suitable blade :
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/61-2in-mini-hacksaw/
did the job ;-]

starter motor removed without further fuss ..
broken regulator shaft came out intact using long nose pliers
[ rubber and nylon washers still in place .. nowt left inside pump ]
big sigh of relief ;-}}

'nother worry was that i'd dropped a metal hose clip
from off the hp.pump return lines ..
and thought it had gone down between pump and alternator ..
[ i.e. was it anywhere near belts n pulleys .. or jammed inside the alternator ?? ]
didn't hear it hit the engine tray ..

anyhowz .. turned out it had rolled to the right 'n was easily retrieved .. :-}

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so .. replaced the regulator .. with the new 'bosch' job
sourced new bolts for the starter ..
cleaned all electrical terminals and sensor plugs-sockets
refitted starter motor .. torqued up the bolts to spec.

re-assembled all pipes / hoses .. n topped up coolant ..
trickle charged the battery .. full after 7 hours ..
[ it had been sitting 8months .. neg. cable removed ]
refitted battery .. 'n ran the low pressure pump for 30 seconds ..
let it cool .. then another 30 second burst ..
checked for leaks .. then gave starting it a shot ..
after a bit of cranking it chugged into life n' settled down to a smooth idle

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took it for a short run on these back streets ..
all good so far ..
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gave a good clean out inside
pressure-washed the exterior ..
treated all rubber n plastic trim with armor-all
replaced all wipers ..

now ready for mot

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as for the original issue ..
well decided to replace the hp.regulator
as the 1st hp.pump replacement included a faulty regulator ..
that hp.pump were replaced as a unit [pump + regulator]
given all other fuel related main parts were replaced with new bits
i was wondering if the regulator was part of a faulty batch ..
hence decided to replace it ..
[ the dealership replaced hp.pump be of unknown origin
[ it certainly looks like a rebuilt job ..
[ unknown markings on the regulator

the bosch replacement regulator came from germany ..
looks to be made in czechoslovakia
as did my brand-new injectors
[ sourced from an lr independant garage .. ]

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has it solved the initial issue ??
no idea .. yet ..
[ the synergy-2a box 'n extra turbo controller have both been totally removed
[ IF all goes well .. i might consider getting it re-mapped ..
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on a positive note ..
on restart .. engine no longer acts like a wind-up toy ..
it jumps into life like it used to do prior to the 'issue'
and ..
mot now in better weather month .. as opposed to prev. winter time :-}
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and btw:
the 'new' injectors were sourced here :
http://www.ribblevalley4x4.com
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a.t.b.
`s`