single point lpg

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nathan5346

Well-Known Member
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Location
oldbury
a mate of mine has a 4.6 p38 and has bought an lpg system (secondhand and not complete) he's ask advice off 2 local lpg fitters and both have said its the wrong system for the r/r and he needs a multipoint, ive been doing some research and there conflicting info, Can a single point be used on the p38 4.6 or not?
ta
 
the single is an old system, its the same as carbs and injection on oetrol, it will fit and will work but the nightmare is tailoring a secondhand incomplete system to his vehicle!
 
HATS ABOUT RIGHT, there is no problems with mine, just make sure its looked at by a fitter after your mate has done it, not something to mess about with.
 
gas is as safe as petrol, keep joints to a minimum and check any joints with soapy water, clean soapy water off with clean water and then dry thoroughly!

its the leccy side that will cause issues i reckon!
 
There are regulations that need to be followed, such as there being no joints between tank and vapouriser in the main fuel line.... there are others as well about tank mounting and venting and stuff. Badly fitted DIY LPG systems is why Insurance companies get sniffy about the stuff.... too many DIG bodgers dont bother or know of the 'standards' and make a balls up of things.
So read up on it!
When you say 'single-point', do you mean open loop, single point mixer system, or do you mean single point injection?
There's two basic systems, mixer and injection, BOTH can be single or multi-point.
On 'big' engines, like the 4.6 V8 the mixer, if large enough to flow the volume of air the engine requires should have a 'duel point' mixer, that is a single mixer with two entry points so that the gas is mixed evenly around the ring.
Its not very 'sophisticated' and differs from 'single point' systems by having a bigger mixer a 'y' piece in the hose from the vapouriser and two short lengths of hose from it to the mixer, instead of one!
On a 4.6, and an Open Loop' system, thats the bit of kit you ought to have'. If you have a 'single point' mixer, chances are its off (or intended for) a smaller engine. If you have the rest of the kit, that bit on its own, new isn't THAT expensive, to make the system work properly. Use teh small mixer, and it would be like sticking the little carburettor from an 850 Mini onto a 1300.... it would work....... but you'd not get full power from it.
I doubt you have single point injection..... again, Rover V8 is really to big to work on one, and by the time LPG injection became viable, sequential set ups were 'the done thing'., but it could be.... basically fully electronically controlled injection valve, but only one of them, usually squirting LPG into the plenum chamber.... again, if off a smaller engine, probably not got the fueling capability for the big V, and mapping it would be a pain, hence recomend to start over with a multi-point sequential injection (or mixer)
Pro fitters, BTW wouldn't be keen to fit a second hand system, becouse of its unknown providence.
They may do it, but chances are they wouldn't offer certificate of installation, as they couldn't warrant things like the tanks and valves as they would have no testing certs or anything from the maker....
Its NOT that they are necesserily tyrying to rip you off, or make more money off you, BUT what makes thier service 'valuable' is that they know what the instalation regs and guidlines are, they work to them and offer the cert of instalation to keep insurance co's happy.
Its a bit like going to your local butcher with a deads sheep you've knocked over, and asking him to turn it into chops for your freezer....... he'd probably not do it and try selling you ones out of his fridge, wouldn't he, muttering about 'food standards' and the like!
 
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If you are serious about doing LPG and want to keep the car long term,spend a bit more money and get a decent sequential system.The mixer systems will make the engine run,but not properly - sequential can be set up to fuel the engine correctly across ALL loads/revs - single point cant do this.
 
if your gonna get lpg no doubt multi is better, but, i believe single point is more economical on runs and multi better on shorter journeys, dunno if its true but there ya go!
 
if your gonna get lpg no doubt multi is better, but, i believe single point is more economical on runs and multi better on shorter journeys, dunno if its true but there ya go!
The long journey bit may be true as most of the single point systems go lean rather than rich under highway conditions. Lean running on a long motorway journey is another nail in the coffin of a Rover V8 that is probably past its best anyway.
 
Right, well what's shown in that picture is an 'Closed Loop - Duel Point' system, not an open loop system; bit more complicated to fit, but not much.

Vapouriser in that pic IS a duel diagphram unit, or 'Two Stage' vapouriser. As far as the plumbing's concerned, works just like a single stage unit, hard line 'in' for LPG, soft line 'out' for the vapourised gas. Then a hose port 'in' and 'out' for the heater water supply.

Ie: they ALL would look to have "2 outlets and 1 inlet" for 3/4" hose, one pair is for the water, one is for the boiled fuel!

Advantage of a two-stage vapouriser is that it can usually handle more gas, for bigger engines, and second doesn't boil it all in one go; first chamber pre-heats it, second chamber boils it 'as required' so there is less gaseouse fuel in the system at one time, hence makes the engine a tad more responsive.

Now, the intricacies; That Closed Loop system is that it has an electronic 'brain' controlling a stepper-motor actuated mixture valve. This sits in the pipe from the vapouriser to the mixer and controls the mixture strength according to a signal from a Lambda sensor in the exhaust.

lpg_omvl_millennium_kit.jpg


Identifying whats in that picture:-

On the Left, two black boxes with tags on the top; Injector Emmulators
Moving to the right, and just above, big aluminium thing, is the duel-stage vapouriser
Beneath that, shing round thing with brass bit stuck out the side; Mixer.
Beneath that, the thing that looks like a funny shaped bolt with a tail of wire coming out of it and looped round with red ends; Lambda Sensor
Next to that is a small black box..... No idea, pictures not clear enough but at a guess, probably the 'change over switch & LED Guess Guage'
Next to that, brass thing with a black plastic bit on the top; fuel shut off solenoid.
Above, sitting in the coil of wire, Black Box with a tag, Control Unit
Thing sat next to it, black plastic moulding with some kind or metal cap on the end; stepper mixer valve.

Reason its called 'closed loop' is becouse the Lambda sensor reading CO levels provides feed back areound the engine giving a 'closed loop' feed-back to correct mixture strength.

The 'open-loop' systems work purely on er....... well in some cases NOTHING! There's just a preset 'tap' in the hose between the vapuriser and mixture to adjust the basic mixture strength, and it then relies on the venturi in the mixer flowing more gas into the air stream the more air that passes through it.

Crude but effective! if correctly set up.

As comments elsewhere; on a 'pre-set' stystem, you set the pressure regulator on the vapouriser for peak fuel flow, then adjusted the mixture on the mixture scre to the mixer, erring on the side of ritch, as you had little compensation to ritchen the mix for acceleration. BUT, if the regulator was set too low, then on load, the mixer wouldn't be getting enough fuel and the mixture would weaken off, and engines could start to knock.... not a problem of LPG.... a problem of bad setting up and tuning.

anyway, slightly more refined systems have a vacuum controlled mixer valve; this takes a vacuum line from the plenum, some-times the same coupling as the distributor's vacuum advance (Not that you'll find one of those on a distributor-less 4.6!) to a diagnrphram arrangement similar to the vacuum advance on a dizzy, which opens the mixture valve under vaccum, ie acceleration, to provide enrichment for acceleration.

Makes the system a bit more 'responsive' as well as a tad more ecconomical..... in theory!

But same problems as pre-set system, in getting the initial delivery pressure and mixture right AND setting the compensator valve to compensate by the right amount, at the right time! Bigger ball-ache to set up, and even more chance to balls it up, I'm afraid. Again, though, not a fault of LPG or even the LPG system, just ignorance or lack of expertise in using it.

Now, since your mate doesn't have a mixer, I'll mention the NEXT advance in open loop systems, and that is the BLOS carburettor. Big news at the moment, becouse some-one has just started selling them at realistic prices (under £100).

Basically this is a propper 'carburettor' which does the job of both mixture valve and mixer, and it works like an old fasioned SU carb, with a slide lifting and falling under manifold vaccum to keep the air velocity through it constant, while metering the fuel via... well and SU carb did it with a needle and jet, but on the BLOS its a shrouded spray rail to handle the larger volume of gaseouse fuel.... but the ideas the same.

Reports on these things have been promicing, and I'd be VERY tempted if your mate needs a mixer, to look at one of these set ups. Open loop, doesn't need the exhaust drilled for the Lambda, and theres not so much complicated electronics involved, as with the closed loop system in the example you've shown.

I came accross the LPG carb, about seven or eight years ago, and the engineering studies I read were very promicing, but it was a commercial non-starter, as it was too expensive to make, compared to more sophisticated electronic systems..... except that's changed now this chap has found a way to get them to market for under a ton...... provided cost cutting hasn't severely compromised them......

ANYWAY..... back to the topic; 4.6 is a GEMS motor. On the earlier 3.5 & 3.9 systems with Lucas Flapper or Hotwire injection, you could fit the mechanical bits of the LPG system, and dissable the injection simply by killing the power supply to the injectors. ECU would keep 'firing' the injectors, but since it did that by switching the earth side of the injector, it would just be turning on and off a dead circuit! Didn't even matter if it was a Lambda system...... it could adjust the fueing as much as it liked.... without power to the squirters, wasn't going to put any in!

Meanwhile it would keep sparking the ignition, so if you had the electric bits of your LPG system in place, to turn on the gas....... off you'd go.

On a GEMS engine, though, you NEED the ECU to control the ignition for you, as you dont have a seperate distributor. Switch off the injectors, whole system will go wampy, hence you need those injector emmulators, to 'fool' the ecu into thinking its putting fuel into the engine when its not, and to keep the sparks flowing.

Which just leaves the matter of the Lambda, if its a closed loop system. GEMS engine SHOULD already have a Lambda, and the sensible thing to do would be to take the feedback signal that the ECU is providing for the injectors to drive the mixer stepper, but most systems find it more convenient and easier to by-pass it and put in a second Lambda and control loop for the stepper.

Dont know if any of that is of any help what so ever...... but the simple answer is it's NOT quite so straight forward on a GEMS engine as it is on the earlier ones, and without the detailed instructions that (hopefully!) would have come with the original kit, plus a bit of know-how and some ideas of the variouse regulations, standards and basic operation of gas....

Its NOT a job for the feint hearted to fit an LPG system! Especially a second hand one, worse an INCOMPLETE second hand one!

My advice? Find some-one that knows gas, if not a pro, a trusted authority....... failing that, stick it back on e-bay!

And use the dosh for
a) A pro-fit conversion
b) a 'New' kit with instructions, and ALL parts sized properly for that engine
c) buying 'full-Price-Fuel'!
 
Right, well what's shown in that picture is an 'Closed Loop - Duel Point' system, not an open loop system; bit more complicated to fit, but not much.

Vapouriser in that pic IS a duel diagphram unit, or 'Two Stage' vapouriser. As far as the plumbing's concerned, works just like a single stage unit, hard line 'in' for LPG, soft line 'out' for the vapourised gas. Then a hose port 'in' and 'out' for the heater water supply.

Ie: they ALL would look to have "2 outlets and 1 inlet" for 3/4" hose, one pair is for the water, one is for the boiled fuel!

Advantage of a two-stage vapouriser is that it can usually handle more gas, for bigger engines, and second doesn't boil it all in one go; first chamber pre-heats it, second chamber boils it 'as required' so there is less gaseouse fuel in the system at one time, hence makes the engine a tad more responsive.

Now, the intricacies; That Closed Loop system is that it has an electronic 'brain' controlling a stepper-motor actuated mixture valve. This sits in the pipe from the vapouriser to the mixer and controls the mixture strength according to a signal from a Lambda sensor in the exhaust.

lpg_omvl_millennium_kit.jpg


Identifying whats in that picture:-

On the Left, two black boxes with tags on the top; Injector Emmulators
Moving to the right, and just above, big aluminium thing, is the duel-stage vapouriser
Beneath that, shing round thing with brass bit stuck out the side; Mixer.
Beneath that, the thing that looks like a funny shaped bolt with a tail of wire coming out of it and looped round with red ends; Lambda Sensor
Next to that is a small black box..... No idea, pictures not clear enough but at a guess, probably the 'change over switch & LED Guess Guage'
Next to that, brass thing with a black plastic bit on the top; fuel shut off solenoid.
Above, sitting in the coil of wire, Black Box with a tag, Control Unit
Thing sat next to it, black plastic moulding with some kind or metal cap on the end; stepper mixer valve.

Reason its called 'closed loop' is becouse the Lambda sensor reading CO levels provides feed back areound the engine giving a 'closed loop' feed-back to correct mixture strength.

The 'open-loop' systems work purely on er....... well in some cases NOTHING! There's just a preset 'tap' in the hose between the vapuriser and mixture to adjust the basic mixture strength, and it then relies on the venturi in the mixer flowing more gas into the air stream the more air that passes through it.

Crude but effective! if correctly set up.

As comments elsewhere; on a 'pre-set' stystem, you set the pressure regulator on the vapouriser for peak fuel flow, then adjusted the mixture on the mixture scre to the mixer, erring on the side of ritch, as you had little compensation to ritchen the mix for acceleration. BUT, if the regulator was set too low, then on load, the mixer wouldn't be getting enough fuel and the mixture would weaken off, and engines could start to knock.... not a problem of LPG.... a problem of bad setting up and tuning.

anyway, slightly more refined systems have a vacuum controlled mixer valve; this takes a vacuum line from the plenum, some-times the same coupling as the distributor's vacuum advance (Not that you'll find one of those on a distributor-less 4.6!) to a diagnrphram arrangement similar to the vacuum advance on a dizzy, which opens the mixture valve under vaccum, ie acceleration, to provide enrichment for acceleration.

Makes the system a bit more 'responsive' as well as a tad more ecconomical..... in theory!

But same problems as pre-set system, in getting the initial delivery pressure and mixture right AND setting the compensator valve to compensate by the right amount, at the right time! Bigger ball-ache to set up, and even more chance to balls it up, I'm afraid. Again, though, not a fault of LPG or even the LPG system, just ignorance or lack of expertise in using it.

Now, since your mate doesn't have a mixer, I'll mention the NEXT advance in open loop systems, and that is the BLOS carburettor. Big news at the moment, becouse some-one has just started selling them at realistic prices (under £100).

Basically this is a propper 'carburettor' which does the job of both mixture valve and mixer, and it works like an old fasioned SU carb, with a slide lifting and falling under manifold vaccum to keep the air velocity through it constant, while metering the fuel via... well and SU carb did it with a needle and jet, but on the BLOS its a shrouded spray rail to handle the larger volume of gaseouse fuel.... but the ideas the same.

Reports on these things have been promicing, and I'd be VERY tempted if your mate needs a mixer, to look at one of these set ups. Open loop, doesn't need the exhaust drilled for the Lambda, and theres not so much complicated electronics involved, as with the closed loop system in the example you've shown.

I came accross the LPG carb, about seven or eight years ago, and the engineering studies I read were very promicing, but it was a commercial non-starter, as it was too expensive to make, compared to more sophisticated electronic systems..... except that's changed now this chap has found a way to get them to market for under a ton...... provided cost cutting hasn't severely compromised them......

ANYWAY..... back to the topic; 4.6 is a GEMS motor. On the earlier 3.5 & 3.9 systems with Lucas Flapper or Hotwire injection, you could fit the mechanical bits of the LPG system, and dissable the injection simply by killing the power supply to the injectors. ECU would keep 'firing' the injectors, but since it did that by switching the earth side of the injector, it would just be turning on and off a dead circuit! Didn't even matter if it was a Lambda system...... it could adjust the fueing as much as it liked.... without power to the squirters, wasn't going to put any in!

Meanwhile it would keep sparking the ignition, so if you had the electric bits of your LPG system in place, to turn on the gas....... off you'd go.

On a GEMS engine, though, you NEED the ECU to control the ignition for you, as you dont have a seperate distributor. Switch off the injectors, whole system will go wampy, hence you need those injector emmulators, to 'fool' the ecu into thinking its putting fuel into the engine when its not, and to keep the sparks flowing.

Which just leaves the matter of the Lambda, if its a closed loop system. GEMS engine SHOULD already have a Lambda, and the sensible thing to do would be to take the feedback signal that the ECU is providing for the injectors to drive the mixer stepper, but most systems find it more convenient and easier to by-pass it and put in a second Lambda and control loop for the stepper.

Dont know if any of that is of any help what so ever...... but the simple answer is it's NOT quite so straight forward on a GEMS engine as it is on the earlier ones, and without the detailed instructions that (hopefully!) would have come with the original kit, plus a bit of know-how and some ideas of the variouse regulations, standards and basic operation of gas....

Its NOT a job for the feint hearted to fit an LPG system! Especially a second hand one, worse an INCOMPLETE second hand one!

My advice? Find some-one that knows gas, if not a pro, a trusted authority....... failing that, stick it back on e-bay!

And use the dosh for
a) A pro-fit conversion
b) a 'New' kit with instructions, and ALL parts sized properly for that engine
c) buying 'full-Price-Fuel'!
All good stuff,but as you are not familiar with Gems - it uses a pair of 5-0v Titania oxygen sensors,one for each bank and also a knock sensor for each bank.
The systems you are proposing are OK on the old 3.5 units with flapper or hotwire,but not GEMS or the later Bosch engines.They are just not accurate or fast enough in response to keep up with what the engine ecu thinks is happening.When it realises this it will adjust the fuel trims to get a response that it wants.It mostly does not achieve this,so it trims even more.This has the effect of altering the long term fuel trims so far away from where they would be on petrol that the short term trims cant even fuel it properly on petrol.You find a fault memory full of "Catalyst damaging misfires" etc.And because the worst of this is that the single point systems seem to go lean rather than rich,when the engine lacks power - say on a long uphill on the motorway,caravan on the back and a hot summer day.... You put your foot down even more,making it even leaner,and bringing blown head gaskets/block problems even closer.(Esp now most P38's are less than well maintained,partially clogged rads etc.)
At least with a properly fitted and just as importantly setup sequential system the system will follow very closely what the engine ecu would be doing on petrol,and give correct mixture strength.Most of the sequential systems dont bother with a separate oxygen sensor,they just use the pulse width of the petrol injectors which can then be modified to fine tune,even giving bank to bank adjustment.Done this way the driver should not be able to tell the difference between LPG and petrol - then if something changes they will know there is something wrong.
 
No, what he's saying is thet the GEMS 'Brain' will be fooled into thinking that the injectors are crackered if you run it on emmulators while using gas, so when you switch back to petrol it will go completely wampy trying to compensate for faults that aren't really there....
As for how the car works on open loop LPG... as said, that's down to the set up; if you ran a closed loop set up, it does the same thing as the GEMS 'brain' adjusting the mixture according to what the Lambda sensor tells it......
I think I'll have to agree to disagree with 8inaV on the 'negative' effects of LPG.... becouse if you get it set up right you shouldn't have a problem.... except that 'getting it right' CAN be the problem!
Anyway 8in... wazzat alitanked t-chop in your sig gif? Terrier perhaps?
 
Hi Teflon - wasnt trying to start a row or even disagree,just trying to point out that single point LPG is not good enough for the later cars with adaptive ecu's and potentially dodgy blocks.Its fine on the older 3.5's - they will tolerate allsorts of abuse and poor servicing.The P38's wont stand that,and if they dont its all to expensive to repair.
The bike in my piccy is not a Terrier nor Cub,its a TY175 frame that I have "modified" to carry an xt225 Serow engine.I do twinshock trials and the idea is to end up with an all Yamaha 4 stroke twinshock - with electric start.
 
Hi Teflon - wasnt trying to start a row or even disagree,just trying to point out that single point LPG is not good enough for the later cars with adaptive ecu's and potentially dodgy blocks.Its fine on the older 3.5's - they will tolerate allsorts of abuse and poor servicing.The P38's wont stand that,and if they dont its all to expensive to repair.

We weren't rowing, justs disagreeing on a point of opinion; you dont think an mixer system is 'suitable' for a GEMS motor.... and suggest that 'only' a sequential squirter set up would work....

On which point I have to dissagree. A mixer system CAN be made to work on a GEMS engine, RPi sell mixer kits for them........

Might not be the 'best' solution..... but end of the day, engineering is about finding 'acceptable' compromises to problems.

Yes, on a brand new P38, looking forwards to driving perhaps twenty five owners to banckrupsy over its eighteen year life.......

....the inherent sophistication, performance and reliability of a squirter set up wopuld be worth the cost... probably be the most reliable thing on the car!

At 10+ years, a 'decent' pro-fit squirter system would probably cost more than the P38!

Your looking at the wider end of a £2K wedge JUST for the squirter equipment..... on what is perhaps only a £3K car, that has maybe five or six years of life left in it IF it hasn't, as you point out already had a succession f frustrated owners, variousely neglecting it, botching it and shifting it on, so its actually a lot closer to the scrap yard than it should be.

As you say, worth it IF you intend keeping the car, but a heck of a 'risk' you wont.

Mixer system, particularly a close loop Lambda controlled one, might not be as 'elegant' a solution, but CAN be DIY fitted, and costs about half the price.

I mean, if you could afgford £6K for a p38 to begin with, you wouldn't be looking for a £3K one and gassing it; you'd be looking at a £6K one already converted.........

And 'practically', might not be 'as good', and it may not be a particularly 'good' match for the GEMS injection; BUT, it is do-able, and would provide savings.

Risk of warped heads, slipped liners and gawd knows what other maledies on a GEMS engine are still there, whether you convert or not, and, frankly the LEAST of your worries in P38 ownership!....

....dysfunctional immobilisers, loopy suspension.... I've given up reading all the tech-threads on P38 problems..... I just want to stear clear! COMPLETELY!

So, the bottom line is; IF you have problems, then they are probably going to be expensive, and the solution to them, will, as likely be, NOT to fix them. You swap out the motor as a lump, or scrap the car.... IF you have seriouse hassle.

As far as GEMS faults go, running on gas, as long as the ECU will 'trip' to the defaults for start up (which it should), doesn't matter how 'badly' the motor runs on petrol, you dont want to use the stuff anyway.

Again, 'Practically', ECU would log a load of fault codes, but it SHOULD trip to the default 'get you home' map, by passing the sniffer sensor, to allow you to run on petrol if and when you have to.... might not pass an MOT emmissions test on the defaults BUT.... you'd present it for test on gas, so not a problem.....

..... "Practically"

The bike in my piccy is not a Terrier nor Cub,its a TY175 frame that I have "modified" to carry an xt225 Serow engine.I do twinshock trials and the idea is to end up with an all Yamaha 4 stroke twinshock - with electric start.

Oh dear! Well! Probably ought to take this of board, but what the heck!

In 1985, as a school-boy, Ibought a four year old Montesa Cota 248, its first and only 'daylight' MOT had just expired. Cost me my 'life savings' to buy that damg thing! Becouse the notion was School-box scrambles was too ruddy expensive, funded as I was by mowing lawns and stuff, rather than an indulgent daddy! So a couple of years on a trials bike, that was less likely to have been thrashed to learn how to ride 'properly' seemed a good idea...... Chap called Vale Onslow sold me on the notion, setting up a trails school in Brum, where I learned to ride on a TY175! (well, 'properly'..... been thrashing stuff around fields for years) I 'retired' finally five years ogo, when my legs gave out on me.... never DID get a scrambler..... never 'mastered' trials! (does any-one!)

My first trials bike, was actually a C15 T-chop, 'fixer-upper', with the idea I could ride it in Pre-65, 'supposedly' the class, then, for obsolete old iron on the cheap..... but the bike was an abortion from start to finish, and the class was becoming inundated with bolt counters complaining about the legitimacy boyer bransden electronic ignitions and the like.... so it was begginning to loose the 'spirit' of being a 'cheap' clubman class....

So I got the Cota, which at the time was a respectable 'clubman' mount, except that it was EXACTLY the time of the Fantic Mono's re-writing the rule book, and the sport evolving into the short section 'technical acrobatics' of the modern sport!

But by time I'd left university, T-Shock had been born.... and suddenly my 'obsolete old heap of Spanish S.....' was a rather 'useful' last of the line class contender...... shame its rider weren't!

But there you go..... twenty years in the class! With the same bike! and I STILL have it!

Interesting project, be intregued to learn more, see propper pics etc. Seen a lot of T-Shock specials over the years, and I dont know what it is about TY's that lend themselves to being so hacked..... particularly the 175 chassis!

It was the better bike, the 175; it was basically a bored out 125, and had a more compact and lighter frame than the 250, which was a bleedin 'girder'! Yam NEVER tackled the weight issue as well as others..... common one, you probably know, was to dump a 250 motor into a butchered 175 frame, bit like the basis of the Majestic.

As for four strokes..... Well, they've come back, havent they?! Have to admit I know next to nothing about them; my legs gave out on me just as they were being introduced.

When I started out Eddie Legeune was still campaigning the RT Hondas, the last 4-strokes to compete internationally until the 'modern era', and they and the later TLR's were a lot favoured by the more err... 'mature' clubmen weaned on 4-strokes when I was in my youth.

But I could never get on with one. They were heavy, and top heavy at that, but I think the worst thing about them was the power delivery. People always said that the 4-strokes were 'soft' and had 'torque'..... I always found them rather violent and 'snappy'; you'd wind the throttle, and they'd not do anything, then 'kick in' and like as not loose the back tyre........ But then, maybe it was my riding!

A lot were keen to build a competative 'banger' in the clubmen, over the years; and seen a lot of very injeniouse engineering around old XL or XT lumps, even a few C15/B40 or Cub motors!

Even some loon that tried to trials chop an ex-mil Bombardier 350.... and talked a lot about Alen Clews!

Most successful 4-banger I came accross was a very tasty little 'space frame' around a Honda motor. A veritable spiders web of beutifuly brazed, tiny 1/2" tubes all triangulated from the headstock to the swing arm like a Ducati frame gone crazy! Thought the engine was an old XL motor, but was surprised when I was told it was actually a CB125 lump, bored to 160cc!
Very softly tuned, the power delivery was a lot more like a two-strokes........

Anyway..... could ramble on for hours on the topic..... kills me I cant ride any more, but there you go!

Lets us know how the project develops will you?
 
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