Replacement P38 EAS compressor seal gone hard

Dopey said:

Tony

Irish I'm fine m8, hope your all OK your end

I was thinking (I know dangerous eh??) if its ONLY desiccant that needs replacement then its all much the same , and you can buy sashes from almost any place, and if you have digital scales then you can get the weight right as well, its only Silica Gel and it all duz the same thing, just different sizes grades is all (they put them in sanitary pads as well!!) so now I know it just screws off I'm going to have a look and see who duz them (there are loads of manufactures of these anyway) and give it a bash, after all all it will do is capture moisture as the air passes through it, and any desiccant Silica will do that

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:welcome2:You are both "Tonys" so it applies to both of you !! Oh. I'll give Marcel (Keith) a heads up whist I'm at it !!!

Just got to make sure that the granules are not too small to enter the pipework as I can just imagine the fun to be had if they find their way into the valave block !!:doh:. I can now imagine all the guys on here dissecting their wifes/partners stock of "Monthly" essentials in order to find the right size and the reccomendations for the best product :hysterically_laughi .

Somehow, I have the feeling that this post will go on and on.....You have certainly opened a can of worms now Tony B.

If you stick them in the oven for about 15 to 20 mins it regenerates them, you can do that about 5 times (but not with sanitary towels though apparently) you can now also get a blue silica that if it has water it will change colour to orange or red, so you know you have water going in to the system, heat them up to reuse again, they go blue again

did you mail him ;; [email protected] ; i think he give a year guarantee on the part ,,, if not tell us about this so we would buy this parts again ;

Update on original post!

I received my parts from Symlise today. As I was taking the pump apart, I couldn't see anything wrong with the piston seal, so just experimenting before stripping it apart, put the replacement cylinder on the piston. Blow me, it was a tight fit! Nothing wrong with the seal, the old cylinder liner is too big. So I got the verniers out. The old cylinder is the black anodised type, replaced with the seal some 7 months ago. Internal diameter is 30.26mm, new silver anodised cylinder is 30.14mm, so there's a difference of 0.12mm which can be seen and easily felt. So seems there's more than just different makes of seals available, we also need to watch the size of the replacement cylinder liners. I'll assemble the pump with only the cylinder renewed and report back, I'm expecting it to work fine.

Further update.
Having just spoken to the manufacturer of the original seal and liner for an hour, I have a much better understanding of seals, materials and expectations. I know we typically go on about how long a replacement seal has lasted compared to the original Thomas pump seal and get upset when a replacement seal fails after 6 months. The reason why this occurs is Thomas pumps seemed to have a secret formula for the seals that can't be matched and they won't supply. None of the aftermarket seal manufactures have matched it, but some seem better than others. I think the replacement seal I had fitted has worked it's life and I shouldn't expect it to last years, the Symlise seal I expect will probably do the same. If someone gets 2 years from a replacement seal, then they were lucky. To put this in context, small manufacturers are helping us by making this otherwise non-obtainable part, to the best of their abilities. If it does only last 6 months or a year, it's not a hard job to change and it doesn't cost much (price of a Pizza at a restaurant), the alternative is a replacement pump at £200.

Hi all
i am one of the manufacturers of these types of piston seals and i would especially like to reply to alan c comments and pictures he posted of my piston seal kit,after speaking with alan by telephone in great detail with regard to my concerns,he had admitted and apologised for not thinking about the impact and problems his misrepresentation would have on my business and most importantly jeopardising the future supply by all manufacturers of these seals,it was clear to me speaking with alan ! he would be the first to admit he as not carried out any testing with all other suppliers piston seal kits ! on that note he doesn,t know at this stage whether the 7 months longevity he experienced with my seal kit may or may not be the best available, no supplier of these seals at the moment states how long there seals and kits will last and i will welcome the day when a person or persons tests the 7 or 8 seals and kits available by different suppliers on the same vehicle and post's his findings in a complete manner ! i am confident that my products will be in the top percent ! unfortunately this particular posting may have damaged my business particularly,it appears i am the 1st manufacturer of these seals to post comments on this site ,i will post further comments with regard to this subject of seal longevity shortly.Its my view that suppliers of these seals including myself are offering the public a chance to avoid large repair bills at the main dealers for the air suspension issues and to actually take on the repair themselves at a price similar to a 3 course meal , lets keep it in perspective,the forums are a vital resource and it would be nice if there were one aspect of society that supports small specialised UK manufacturing businesses such as myself.please check out further post with my take on seal longevity.

Hi ALL,
Alan C ! please be careful with your findings inaccurate information or just a lack of experience in this field can damage any business including mine and i can,t allow it to continue to much longer You have pictured my liner which as no signs of wear at all just remenants of the 7 month old worn seal together with brand new other suppliers liner also your findings are inaccurate due to the fact that you have run my seal kit for 7 months of which it seems it is due for replacement ! you then have purchased a different suppliers liner which is marginally smaller in the inside diameter and fitted that liner over my 7 month worn seal which then appears to seal slightly ! Alan , from a time served engineer you don,t do that its bonker's, i explained to you ! put the new suppliers seal and liner together and test them as they were intended like you did with my kit or purchase a new seal from me and test it in the new suppliers liner , i can not allow you to damage my business by misleading the public with improper diagnosis procedures ,if there are no other manufacturers you can speak to with regard to your questions ! please telephone me first before posting and i will give you the technical and experienced view on the matter , these types of posts have got to stop, i hope you understand soon ,adopt a different approach to posting on forums with this subject !for all our sakes .

Hi ALL,
Alan C appears to be attacking my product again and doesn,t appear to have honoured is telephone conversation with me ,his findings are inaccurate due to the fact that he as run my seal kit for 7 months of which it seems it is due for replacement ! he then as purchased a different suppliers liner which is marginally smaller in the inside diameter and fitted that liner over my 7 month worn seal which then appears to seal slightly ! Alan , from a time served engineer you don,t do that its bonker's , i explained to you put the new suppliers seal and liner together and test them as they were intended like you did with my kit or purchase a new seal from me and test it in the new suppliers liner , i can not allow you to damage my business by misleading the public with improper diagnosis procedures ,if there are no other manufacturers you can speak to with regard to your questions ! please telephone me first and i will give the technical and experienced view on the matter , these types of posts have got to stop.

Alan C said:

Update on original post!

I received my parts from Symlise today. As I was taking the pump apart, I couldn't see anything wrong with the piston seal, so just experimenting before stripping it apart, put the replacement cylinder on the piston. Blow me, it was a tight fit! Nothing wrong with the seal, the old cylinder liner is too big. So I got the verniers out. The old cylinder is the black anodised type, replaced with the seal some 7 months ago. Internal diameter is 30.26mm, new silver anodised cylinder is 30.14mm, so there's a difference of 0.12mm which can be seen and easily felt. So seems there's more than just different makes of seals available, we also need to watch the size of the replacement cylinder liners. I'll assemble the pump with only the cylinder renewed and report back, I'm expecting it to work fine.

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Of course there's nothing wrong with the Dutch seal, that thing is hard as hell. Maybe too hard because it can rub the black liner really hard in case of misalignment and never fail...

I think i'm one of those that can have an opinion about all those seals since i repaired compressors during 5 years and supplied parts too.

Overall, my business allowed repair of something as big as 200 compressors.

Sure i get best results with complete kits from Europarts but those are rarely available and a bit expensive.

My suppliers for seals and liners are either Symlise or Goswin.

It's true that for the price of the seal and the time of repair, it's a good thing to replace it every 2-3 years.

Alan C said:

Further update.
Having just spoken to the manufacturer of the original seal and liner for an hour, I have a much better understanding of seals, materials and expectations. I know we typically go on about how long a replacement seal has lasted compared to the original Thomas pump seal and get upset when a replacement seal fails after 6 months. The reason why this occurs is Thomas pumps seemed to have a secret formula for the seals that can't be matched and they won't supply. None of the aftermarket seal manufactures have matched it, but some seem better than others. I think the replacement seal I had fitted has worked it's life and I shouldn't expect it to last years, the Symlise seal I expect will probably do the same. If someone gets 2 years from a replacement seal, then they were lucky. To put this in context, small manufacturers are helping us by making this otherwise non-obtainable part, to the best of their abilities. If it does only last 6 months or a year, it's not a hard job to change and it doesn't cost much (price of a Pizza at a restaurant), the alternative is a replacement pump at £200.

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Query - where in this post does he attack your company?....he actually praises third party manufacturers in helping us vehicle owners in finding unobtainable parts....

It is to be understood that a third party monufacturers products will only be a facsimilie of the original, thus may not be of similar materials as most manufacturers keep compounds and composites a closely guarded secret...I work as a Design Engineer and some of the components, designs and materials we use are considered commercially sensitive to the company and as such are not available for recreation by A.N. Other.....

I also praise yourself and other third party manufacturers in offering your expertise and services in keeping our beloved vehicles road-worthy and long may it continue....but I still fail to see where in his post above he attacks your company...

p38stuff said:

Hi ALL,
Alan C appears to be attacking my product again and doesn,t appear to have honoured is telephone conversation with me ,his findings are inaccurate due to the fact that he as run my seal kit for 7 months of which it seems it is due for replacement ! he then as purchased a different suppliers liner which is marginally smaller in the inside diameter and fitted that liner over my 7 month worn seal which then appears to seal slightly ! Alan , from a time served engineer you don,t do that its bonker's , i explained to you put the new suppliers seal and liner together and test them as they were intended like you did with my kit or purchase a new seal from me and test it in the new suppliers liner , i can not allow you to damage my business by misleading the public with improper diagnosis procedures ,if there are no other manufacturers you can speak to with regard to your questions ! please telephone me first and i will give the technical and experienced view on the matter , these types of posts have got to stop.

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The OP has reported his experience with a product.Whether or not it is the best/worst or inbetween one available he does not claim.I do not see where he is critical of a specific company.In fact it is the other way around ,where he is criticised for bringing his experience to the forum,which he is perfectly entitled to do so.
This sharing of experiences enables all to make better choices when for looking to purchase products.
You of course are quite entitled to give your side of the situation,however it should be done objectively.

Hi,
Please be aware the picture you are displaying is mis-reprensenting my product the original supplier of my image which you have appeared to have saved yourself as removed the image from the original post after he realised that is diagnosis and technical skill in this area was in its very early stages and misplaced , i hope you will do the same ,please read the posts, i will help anyone with concerns you they may have, there is no reason to single out my product ,i look forward to anyone who wishes to devote their lives testing all manufacturers seals as a whole.

Hi
If you are a technical person and manufacturer as i ,you will understand ,little knowledge is a dangerous thing ,you appear to support the little knowledge avenue of mis-information ,i am merely explaining to you that the posted comment regard the liners particulary one of my liners is laughable from a time served experienced engineers point of view ,i hope there is still some engineers out there.

p38stuff said:

Hi
If you are a technical person and manufacturer as i ,you will understand ,little knowledge is a dangerous thing ,you appear to support the little knowledge avenue of mis-information ,i am merely explaining to you that the posted comment regard the liners particulary one of my liners is laughable from a time served experienced engineers point of view ,i hope there is still some engineers out there.

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I am presuming that the above is in response to my post.
Yes I am a technical person.This forum however is a Land Rover users forum and not a suppliers,manufacturers or materials forum.You cannot seriously expect a forum member to purchase seals/cyclinders from all manufacturers and then test them just so their posts reflect a comparable experience.
Do the job yourself after all you are a manufacturer/supplier.You will then have the facts and can promote your product as one of the top performing seals,insteading of betting that it is.
My experience with a replacement seal and cyclinder ,is that I replaced my 1995 P38,s in 2007 and it is still performing satisfactory today.It does not mean I used the best/worst/medium product.Nor do I praise/condemn the manufacturer.It simply means that is what has happened.

you done nothing wrong, the guy seems, to say the least paranoid, so don't beat yourself up about it (and it seems like your not anyway) you did the right thing giving us info on a product that's YOUR opinion, ( and he gave his) and we are ALL entitled to OUR opinions, that why we live in a ****ing democracy.....

I was, and am, stating the facts as I found them. I am not condoning nor praising any one manufacturer. I am simply stating facts. I stated I used a seal and liner, the seal lasted 7 months. Is that good or bad? My expectation of ANY seal would be longer, but that is what happend to mine. I obtained replacements. These were from a different company to the original replacements. I stated the liners had differing dimentions, these are facts. I did not praise nor condone, I didn't say either was good nor bad, nor did I say the original (black) liner was worn, because it is not. I am not mis-representing anything or anyone.

Looking at the worn seal, it has worn on it's outside sealing edge, it has not broken nor actually failed. There is life left in it if I use it with the slightly smaller liner, it seals and the pump will make pressure. Why am I bonkers to do this? I am not prepared to test EVERY seal/liner on the market, I only want to repair my pump and have it last a reasonable time, no more, no less. I expect the seal will completely wear out or fail in due course, if another 7 months then great, if sooner then not so great. In either case, I have a spare seal that I can fit into the hopefully still serviceable liner.

P38Stuff - I applaud your effort to manufacture these seals, without you we owners would be in a worse place in regards to maintaining the P38. However, it's a free marketplace and through forums such as this, information on best/worse products, tips and tricks etc are exchanged for the benfit of owners. Sure some of us on here are technical (me included), however in the case of this seal and liner I am a consumer. I have simply reported my findings on pruducts I used, and this was reported without bias. I have edited my posts to make this clearer. I am not a test bed for different manufacturers products, nor do I wish to be. I would happily use your products again, I would like them to last longer, but if I have acheived the expected life of a seal, and it only cost the price of a pizza as compared to £200 for a replacement pump, then it makes financial sense to continue to replace the seals assuming the pump bearings, brushes etc continue to provide service. It's not a hard job to replace the seal, compared to other jobs on the P38 anyway.

Please continue to produce your seals. If you can, test them in a test bed to destruction with all the other manufacturers seals available then make the information available. I understand this would be test condition data, but would be a fair and indisputable test. Assuming your seals came out the best, as you believe they should, then you can promote them as the best, with proof.

Here's to better, longer lasting, improved seals! :beer2:

Of course there's more to testing than running the seals to destruction, the compressor may produce more heat and cut out sooner with different friction characteristics, plus heat cycles themselves often affect these sort of materials more than wear and tear, so the pump would have to be allowed to cool, perhaps to around freezing, as a real pump would over-night in winter.

StuckAgainSteve said:

Of course there's more to testing than running the seals to destruction, the compressor may produce more heat and cut out sooner with different friction characteristics, plus heat cycles themselves often affect these sort of materials more than wear and tear, so the pump would have to be allowed to cool, perhaps to around freezing, as a real pump would over-night in winter.

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I totally agree, the use of my car is different to yours, so the pump cycle would corrspondingly be different. My pump crank bearing may be more worn allowing more piston movement, you may park yours in a warm garage while mine is under 12 inches of snow, all these are variables, however it would be nice if a seal manufacturer could supply some sort of test data rather than saying no one can guarantee any particular life from these seals.

All I wanted to do was comment on the life I had from a replacement seal! :doh:

There's 100s of variables, leaks in the system for one, how big/small is the leak that's making the compressor run all/part of the time, at the end of the day its the kinda thing you have to hand over to experts and do it scientificy, guess work just wont do

Dopey said:

There's 100s of variables, leaks in the system for one, how big/small is the leak that's making the compressor run all/part of the time, at the end of the day its the kinda thing you have to hand over to experts and do it scientificy, guess work just wont do

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The only people who would test all the variables to the nth degree are the people who have to put a warranty on the vehicle - i.e. Land Rover. If you tried to develop a seal that performs to the o.e. specification it would have to cost as much as a new pump! The only chance is to stumble across a seal produced for other purposes which matches the necessary specification.

Good point about leaks though, perhaps if we fitted an indicator to say when the pump was running we could fix things before they break others. Wish I had the time could knock up a PIC program and little black box to monitor the behaviour of the pump activity. When the pattern of behaviour changes markedly it could set an indicator to say something's afoot. If only all this stuff was as cheap and available as it is now - when I had the time to do interesting things!