P38s oop north.

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tomcat59alan said:
Same as Hillsborough mate, treat us like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed on bull****. Has anyone ever worked out how much CO and other pollutants have been released into the atmosphere by all the wars in the last 100+ years? I'm sure some professor somewhere will get a government grant to carry out the research
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and when he comes up with a answer they dont like he has a incredible accident that takes his life :eek::D dead folk dont talk :rolleyes::D
 
tomcat59alan said:
Same as Hillsborough mate, treat us like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed on bull****. Has anyone ever worked out how much CO and other pollutants have been released into the atmosphere by all the wars in the last 100+ years? I'm sure some professor somewhere will get a government grant to carry out the research
Click to expand...

Hillsborough was bloody tragic, people have things to answer for. Mostly the Liverpool fans who rushed on like a herd of cattle and crushed their mates at the front. Police may have dropped a few bollocks but it wasn't them that killed the supporters the supporters did that themselves. Any supporter who came on behind the goals and pushed in on that day has blood on their hands. A lot of people to blame for that, not just the police as some would like to believe.
 
wammers said:
Think you have your eyes closed on that one Keith. Either by very, very bad management of the situation or on purpose she created the conditions that allowed the invasion. The government knew the Argies were preparing an invasion. The previous government sent a fleet nuclear sub down there and made it's presence known to the Argies when they were preparing earlier. That stopped them cold in their tracks. She could have done the same. What did she do? Put a marine on every piece of rock sticking up out of the water. Because without military presence there can in law be no armed invasion. Then withdrew the navy from the area. It was an open invitation to invade. She alone is responsible for the British and Argie deaths in that war, it could have and should have been avoided. Despite the thirty year disclosure rule having passed long ago, government papers (Cabinet minutes Etc) concerning the lead up to it have never been released and are still classified as secret. WHY?
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Just as you have your eyes closed to Bliar's war in Iraq Tony.
 
wammers said:
Hillsborough was bloody tragic, people have things to answer for. Mostly the Liverpool fans who rushed on like a herd of cattle and crushed their mates at the front. Police may have dropped a few bollocks but it wasn't them that killed the supporters the supporters did that themselves. Any supporter who came on behind the goals and pushed in on that day has blood on their hands. A lot of people to blame for that, not just the police as some would like to believe.
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It's not so much who was to blame that gets me but the cover-up, lies and mass changing of statements. :mad:

As for Thatch she was a particularly badd'un but only in so much as politicians manage collectively anyway.

Gets to me sometimes but I guess expecting accountablity from those in power is a bit like being suprised at LRs build quality :eek:
 
Datatek said:
Just as you have your eyes closed to Bliar's war in Iraq Tony.
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No my eyes are fully open on Iraq Keith. Blair made a case that did not exist in order to appear a world player supporting the imbecile that was Bush. I have never made any statement that would lead anyone to think otherwise.
 
'Course revisionists will put it all right.
Thatcher closed the mines and decimated heavy industry to reduce CO2 emissions. secret meetings between her and Scargill got the miners leaders on side for this and they became the first eco-warriors/martyrs. There was also an agreement/promise that 'if you let us close your pit your doc will sign you onto disability allowance for the rest of your life.' Never have to work again. Same deal for all of the poor bastards at BL and other 'quality' engineering outfits. So it turns out that the 'Red' leaders of the unions and the right wing thugs of the Thatcher cabinet teamed up to save the planet ahead of their time and the only people who suffered were the socialists in the middle. It was ever thus! Look at the reaction of the press to a suggestion of freezing energy prices for a few months.

I lived through the seventies and was lucky enough to hold down a job for all of it.

The unions get a lot of **** about the way they 'ran' the country, but tell me this . The company I worked for were prepared for me to bring my 25 members out on strike because they saw fit to award 50p a week extra to the engineering union but not to SATA. They did that on purpose the engineers had nothing to do with it they were offered it and accepted before we got to the table. The company were deliberately trying to undermine a parity agreement. On another occasion the company engineered a strike in order to tear up a productivity agreement they had forced onto the employees and then realised that a far too big a portion of the savings (their increased profit) was being paid out in bonus. And all this was an employer who was always seen as a good one who looked after their employees.

Same as today, employers use recession as an opportunity to impress on people how lucky they are to have a job.

Watch "The seventies" on BBC4 a very enlightening series.
Rant Over.
 
wammers said:
Think you have your eyes closed on that one Keith. Either by very, very bad management of the situation or on purpose she created the conditions that allowed the invasion. The government knew the Argies were preparing an invasion. The previous government sent a fleet nuclear sub down there and made it's presence known to the Argies when they were preparing earlier. That stopped them cold in their tracks. She could have done the same. What did she do? Put a marine on every piece of rock sticking up out of the water. Because without military presence there can in law be no armed invasion. Then withdrew the navy from the area. It was an open invitation to invade. She alone is responsible for the British and Argie deaths in that war, it could have and should have been avoided. Despite the thirty year disclosure rule having passed long ago, government papers (Cabinet minutes Etc) concerning the lead up to it have never been released and are still classified as secret. WHY?
Click to expand...

What complete and utter nonsense the Tory government withdrew a Navy icebreaker (HMS Endurance) - the only vessel regularly patrolling the Islands there was no fleet or attack sub on standby, the previous Labour administration scrapping the proper aircraft carriers carrying fast jets left us looking weak - not the removal of a 100 metre icebreaker. Of course, if the Tories hadn't had the job of bailing out a completely bankrupt country in 1979 (Labour up to their usual tricks) the Navy would have presumably escaped cuts.

As for being responsible for "Argie deaths", if Welsh Labour MP Teddy Rowland hadn't stood up in parliament (using parliamentary privilege to protect himself against treason) while British servicemen were sailing to the Atlantic and telling the Argentinians we could read their communications, we would have had a decisive military advantage and perhaps we would have known where the Belgrano was heading and wouldn't have sunk her. The Argentinians of course immediately changed their codes making the conflict longer and bloodier than it should have been. The irony is the burned face of fellow Welshman Simon Weston became the face of the war - I wonder if Rowland could look Weston in the eye? Instead of presenting him with a gallows and a rope, war criminal Blair made the treacherous Rowland a Lord for putting the Labour party's ambitions (hoping Maggie would lose "her" war) before his own country and countryman.
 
StuckAgainSteve said:
What complete and utter nonsense the Tory government withdrew a Navy icebreaker (HMS Endurance) - the only vessel regularly patrolling the Islands there was no fleet or attack sub on standby, the previous Labour administration scrapping the proper aircraft carriers carrying fast jets left us looking weak - not the removal of a 100 metre icebreaker. Of course, if the Tories hadn't had the job of bailing out a completely bankrupt country in 1979 (Labour up to their usual tricks) the Navy would have presumably escaped cuts.

As for being responsible for "Argie deaths", if Welsh Labour MP Teddy Rowland hadn't stood up in parliament (using parliamentary privilege to protect himself against treason) while British servicemen were sailing to the Atlantic and telling the Argentinians we could read their communications, we would have had a decisive military advantage and perhaps we would have known where the Belgrano was heading and wouldn't have sunk her. The Argentinians of course immediately changed their codes making the conflict longer and bloodier than it should have been. The irony is the burned face of fellow Welshman Simon Weston became the face of the war - I wonder if Rowland could look Weston in the eye? Instead of presenting him with a gallows and a rope, war criminal Blair made the treacherous Rowland a Lord for putting the Labour party's ambitions (hoping Maggie would lose "her" war) before his own country and countryman.
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Beat me to it:)
 
Im up north and just bought a P38 DSE

It threw its propshaft whacking the gear selector switch and wiring loom into the bargain and knacking the selector cable for good measure, but like Murphy's, I'm not bitter.

Should be back up to before the weekend. That will do me.
 
StuckAgainSteve said:
What complete and utter nonsense the Tory government withdrew a Navy icebreaker (HMS Endurance) - the only vessel regularly patrolling the Islands there was no fleet or attack sub on standby, the previous Labour administration scrapping the proper aircraft carriers carrying fast jets left us looking weak - not the removal of a 100 metre icebreaker. Of course, if the Tories hadn't had the job of bailing out a completely bankrupt country in 1979 (Labour up to their usual tricks) the Navy would have presumably escaped cuts.

As for being responsible for "Argie deaths", if Welsh Labour MP Teddy Rowland hadn't stood up in parliament (using parliamentary privilege to protect himself against treason) while British servicemen were sailing to the Atlantic and telling the Argentinians we could read their communications, we would have had a decisive military advantage and perhaps we would have known where the Belgrano was heading and wouldn't have sunk her. The Argentinians of course immediately changed their codes making the conflict longer and bloodier than it should have been. The irony is the burned face of fellow Welshman Simon Weston became the face of the war - I wonder if Rowland could look Weston in the eye? Instead of presenting him with a gallows and a rope, war criminal Blair made the treacherous Rowland a Lord for putting the Labour party's ambitions (hoping Maggie would lose "her" war) before his own country and countryman.
Click to expand...

I didn't say there was a fleet or attack submarine there. I said withdrew the navy after the endurance had dropped marines off on every available rock. You really must learn to read and understand what is said. I said she COULD have sent a fleet nuclear sub there like the previous government had done. But she didn't she handed the islands to the Argies on a plate then got all upset when they invaded. She KNEW what they were planning and did sod all to prevent it. This is not about Blair or Tory v Labour it's about a bitch that ruined a bloody country and started a war, either through shear ineptitude or on purpose. I prefer the latter theory.
 
wammers said:
Hillsborough was bloody tragic, people have things to answer for. Mostly the Liverpool fans who rushed on like a herd of cattle and crushed their mates at the front. Police may have dropped a few bollocks but it wasn't them that killed the supporters the supporters did that themselves. Any supporter who came on behind the goals and pushed in on that day has blood on their hands. A lot of people to blame for that, not just the police as some would like to believe.
Click to expand...
But who opened the gates to allow the supporters in? A lot that were let in didn't have tickets for that part of the ground, it was just to relieve the congestion in the road outside the ground. As the game was underway, sure people were in a hurry to se the match, its only human nature. I'm sure nobody thought their actions that day would have such tragic consequences. In those days ,Maggies army could do what they liked, guess they never thought that it would come and bite them on the arse
 
blue beasty said:
It's not so much who was to blame that gets me but the cover-up, lies and mass changing of statements. :mad:

As for Thatch she was a particularly badd'un but only in so much as politicians manage collectively anyway.

Gets to me sometimes but I guess expecting accountablity from those in power is a bit like being suprised at LRs build quality :eek:
Click to expand...
hear hear!!:mad:
 
tomcat59alan said:
But who opened the gates to allow the supporters in? A lot that were let in didn't have tickets for that part of the ground, it was just to relieve the congestion in the road outside the ground. As the game was underway, sure people were in a hurry to se the match, its only human nature. I'm sure nobody thought their actions that day would have such tragic consequences. In those days ,Maggies army could do what they liked, guess they never thought that it would come and bite them on the arse
Click to expand...

So it's ok to go in like a herd of cattle and crush people if you are in a hurry to see the game. Yes the police opened the gates maybe the wrong thing to do. But they did not ask the supporters to behave like bloody animals. Lots of people behaved in an inappropriate manner that day. But one of the biggest contributors was the stupid fences around the pitch. The idiot that thought that one up has a lot to answer for. Lots of contributing factors. But for the supporters representatives to be solidly blaming the police and not being willing to take part of the blame is just stupidity. Is the thirst for compensation and driving force i wonder?
 
wammers said:
I didn't say there was a fleet or attack submarine there. I said withdrew the navy after the endurance had dropped marines off on every available rock. You really must learn to read and understand what is said. I said she COULD have sent a fleet nuclear sub there like the previous government had done. But she didn't she handed the islands to the Argies on a plate then got all upset when they invaded. She KNEW what they were planning and did sod all to prevent it. This is not about Blair or Tory v Labour it's about a bitch that ruined a bloody country and started a war, either through shear ineptitude or on purpose. I prefer the latter theory.
Click to expand...
The previous Labour government had bankrupted the country as is their habit, expenditure had to be cut back and Thatcher made a serious miscalculation, she thought Galtieri was all wind and **** and didn't have the balls to invade. However he had boxed himself into a corner domestically and was using the malvenas as a distraction, he could not back down without losing face and power and ending up on the wrong end of a firing squad. A nuclear sub would not have made one iota of difference unless you think a nuclear strike would have been a good idea.
You obviously don't remember the pre Thatcher era with the constant power outages, rubbish pileing up in the streets, newspapers that regularly did not get printed, the repeated dock strikes etc Wilson and Healy having their tea parties while the communist inspired unions told them how things would be done, or Wilsons devaluation that wouldn't affect "the pound in your pocket".
Remember the closed shop, where the unions decided who could be employed not the owners/managment of businesses? If you did not have a union card you did not work, the threats and violence used by the unions agains those who did not conform, I had some of that from the communist ETU.
The politically motivated unions and bad management destroyed manufacturing, do you think for one moment that the likes of Nissan or Honda would have spent millions setting up manufacturing plants in the UK if Thatcher had not sorted the over powerful unions?
It's along time since unions in the UK have worked for the benefit of employees, they are only interested in political power and points scoring, the UK is the only country that I'm aware of where a mainstream political party is owned by trade unions.
It's always surprised me how so many people blindly support a political party in much the same way as they support a football team, doesn't matter how poorly the party performs, they will still vote for them.
I don't support any party, Thatcher did some stupid things as well as some good things, without her union reforms the UK would still be a mess, indeed it's heading back that way since Blair undid some of the reforms, I refer you again to Grangemouth.
 
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Datatek said:
The previous Labour government had bankrupted the country as is their habit, expenditure had to be cut back and Thatcher made a serious miscalculation, she thought Galtieri was all wind and **** and didn't have the balls to invade. However he had boxed himself into a corner domestically and was using the malvenas as a distraction, he could not back down without losing face and power and ending up on the wrong end of a firing squad. A nuclear sub would not have made one iota of difference unless you think a nuclear strike would have been a good idea.
You obviously don't remember the pre Thatcher era with the constant power outages, rubbish pileing up in the streets, newspapers that regularly did not get printed, the repeated dock strikes etc Wilson and Healy having their tea parties while the communist inspired unions told them how things would be done, or Wilsons devaluation that wouldn't affect "the pound in your pocket".
Remember the closed shop, where the unions decided who could be employed not the owners/managment of businesses? If you did not have a union card you did not work, the threats and violence used by the unions agains those who did not conform, I had some of that from the communist ETU.
The politically motivated unions and bad management destroyed manufacturing, do you think for one moment that the likes of Nissan or Honda would have spent millions setting up manufacturing plants in the UK if Thatcher had not sorted the over powerful unions?
It's along time since unions in the UK have worked for the benefit of employees, they are only interested in political power and points scoring, the UK is the only country that I'm aware of where a mainstream political party is owned by trade unions.
It's always surprised me how so many people blindly support a political party in much the same way as they support a football team, doesn't matter how poorly the party performs, they will still vote for them.
I don't support any party, Thatcher did some stupid things as well as some good things, without her union reforms the UK would still be a mess, indeed it's heading back that way since Blair undid some of the reforms, I refer you again to Grangemouth.
Click to expand...

Keith a nuclear attack submarine DID make a difference when doctor David Owen sent one and parked it outside Port Stanley harbour. Making it's presence in the area well known. They can move faster underwater than any Argie ship, one could have devastated any invasion fleet. I did not mention a nuclear strike. There is a slight difference between a nuclear powered attack submarine like the one that did the Belgrano and a bloody trident sub. One could have gotten there within a few days, she knew for months it was about to kick off. No excuses are possible. Other than the fact that she WANTED them to invade so she could be the bloody hero freeing the islands from oppression. Get real, she was a tyrannical cow, the nearest thing we have had to a dictator since Cromwell. Yes unions were a problem but her slap handed methods of dealing with them destroyed British industry for ever. She wanted to rely on tourism and banking not industry to make Britain money. Look where that got us.
 
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