oil leak from gearbox?

myfirstl322 · Aug 31, 2013

Saint.V8 said:
Inbetween the two banks of cylinders under the intake manifold is the 'Valley' there is a gasket there that seals the intake manifold into the 'Valley'

It is shaped like a boat, deep Vee to encourage coolant up the block to cool cylinder faces facing the Vee. There is NO gasket apparently, although if you do 'Indulge' in giving LR some dosh, you will be buying 'no less' than a tube of black gasket sealant( i could be wrong, i gleaned this from a BMW forum, so if it is true, apply sealant to block, wait 20-30 minutes before refitting pan. The intake manifold is rubber gaskets.

Ok, probably scaring you now, but coolant tube from pump to rear distribution manifold can either perish ( if been used with weak coolant mix ) or rubber seals fail, thus leaking coolant into the void between manifold and pan.:bolt:

loony · Aug 31, 2013

I am helping andy (holidaychicken) with his gearbox, I have a couple of questions for bemble.

So far when being in the car with andy the vibration/rumble seemed to happen at very low revs and speed acceleration on a slight gradient. The gear selection and change hasn't been a problem as far as I am aware and the leak was a main concern

One of the reasons I would like to strip the clutch packs is that we had to drill out one of the T40 countersunk screws after it rounded out, which made quite a bit of swarf.
I am concerned that the swarf may have got into parts inside the gearbox and really don't want to take a risk.

The valve block was removed at the time. Would it be ok to steam clean the empty gearbox housing?

If we strip down the clutch packs what would you suggest we clean the friction plates with?

How critical is the order that the plates are removed and replaced in, meaning faces to steel plates and orientation of friction plates?

Also real world tolerances for the friction plates and do they vary from clutch pack to clutch pack.
Warpage of steel plates is this common?

I am a bit confused about the stack height, one manual shows a jig with the plates in compression and a DTI being used. We have a digital micrometer and some other measuring tools (depth gauge, digi vernier), is this sufficient to add all the individual measurements to get the correct stack height for each clutch.

We have quite a bit of information but it is all over the place at the moment and I haven't come across friction plate guide measurements yet.

The end float that has been mentioned, is this critical if the friction plates/steel plates are replaced or is this end float set for initial setup for a new gearbox housing or replacement shafts and clutch housings?

If new friction plates are to fitted is there a pre-soak procedure for the plates?

also is it advisable to replace the steel plates if the frictions are being replaced?

Thanks for your help

myfirstl322 · Aug 31, 2013

Hello loony ( dai?)Sorry to interject and throw (hopefully) a negative and irrelevant spin on things, but i believe there is a prop coupling/bearing hanger that can vibrate/rumble. I'm sure your is ok, please god let it be so...

loony · Aug 31, 2013

The one that hangs down between the fuel tank?

I will have an inspection, from what I remember it wasn't obviously knackered.

myfirstl322 · Aug 31, 2013

loony said:
The one that hangs down between the fuel tank?

I will have an inspection, from what I remember it wasn't obviously knackered.

Just thought i'd belatedly mention it, i drove a Granada Scorpion many decades ago with this problem, actually, in hindsght, it was horrible all round, but the rumble was at low speed, or at least in 1st and 2nd ( auto).
Now i remember, it was a test drive jolly, no intention of buying the horrible barge. Bought an M5, D-reg, i was 19 lol.

I'm poorer now than i was then.

holidaychicken · Aug 31, 2013

myfirstl322 said:
Hello loony ( dai?)Sorry to interject and throw (hopefully) a negative and irrelevant spin on things, but i believe there is a prop coupling/bearing hanger that can vibrate/rumble. I'm sure your is ok, please god let it be so...

my rev counter waves around when it rumbles which i think points to torque converter and the last time i drove it it wasnt happy, sort of lurching and vibrating with the rev counter needle bouncing
but i have read of people with same symptoms who didnt solve via the TC

this is like a massive puzzle that is really expensive if you guess the wrong answer

myfirstl322 · Aug 31, 2013

Sorry about my throwing sh"t in,
You've got a leak and rumble.. you are right to have box out.
Rebuild it with the good advice /guidance of Bemble et al, it is obviously needing Tlc, so best to concentrate on this and ignore my ramblings , i've had a few sherberts, p.s. those that replaced TC and still had issues probably did not rebuld box like you are doing, keep the faith

Bemble · Aug 31, 2013

Sorry, Im a bit pushed for time at the moment so Ill just provide a bit more information for now with a fuller reply to follow later.

The A & C clutch friction & steel plates are identical (A = 6 plates, C = 4 plates)

The B, D & E clutch friction and steel plates are identical (B = 6 plates, D = 4 plates, E = 5 plates)

The F plates are unique to the F-Brake (6 plates)

Its common to have to drill out the F drum countersunk screws because they seize on the taper but its important to remove just the countersunk top (they go with a pop as the tension is released). If you drill down into the screw itself theres a chance that youll go all the way through and into the piston.

The calculations shown in the repair manual to determine the clutch pack clearance (which is adjusted using different thickness snap rings to retain the end plates) are complicated by the wavy plate (between the piston and the first steel plate) being compressible. The procedure is therefore to preload the clutch pack with 200N of force before the height measurements are made. I use a 20kg weight for this purpose.

However, the control system in the 5HP24 is so sensitive to clutch slip (by immediately dropping into failsafe mode if it senses any) its unusual for the clutch plates to wear. If the friction plates are dark brown in colour (rather than black) and theres no heat spots on the steel plates then theyre probably okay. As a rough guide the individual plate thicknesses should be :

A & C friction = 1.55mm
A & C steel = 2.07mm

B, D & E friction = 1.61mm
B, D & E steel = 2.95mm

F friction = 1.60mm
F steel = 1.78mm

myfirstl322 · Aug 31, 2013

Bemble said:
Sorry, Im a bit pushed for time at the moment so Ill just provide a bit more information for now with a fuller reply to follow later.

The A & C clutch friction & steel plates are identical (A = 6 plates, C = 4 plates)

The B, D & E clutch friction and steel plates are identical (B = 6 plates, D = 4 plates, E = 5 plates)

The F plates are unique to the F-Brake (6 plates)

Its common to have to drill out the F drum countersunk screws because they seize on the taper but its important to remove just the countersunk top (they go with a pop as the tension is released). If you drill down into the screw itself theres a chance that youll go all the way through and into the piston.

The calculations shown in the repair manual to determine the clutch pack clearance (which is adjusted using different thickness snap rings to retain the end plates) are complicated by the wavy plate (between the piston and the first steel plate) being compressible. The procedure is therefore to preload the clutch pack with 200N of force before the height measurements are made. I use a 20kg weight for this purpose.

However, the control system in the 5HP24 is so sensitive to clutch slip (by immediately dropping into failsafe mode if it senses any) its unusual for the clutch plates to wear. If the friction plates are dark brown in colour (rather than black) and theres no heat spots on the steel plates then theyre probably okay. As a rough guide the individual plate thicknesses should be :

A & C friction = 1.55mm
A & C steel = 2.07mm

B, D & E friction = 1.61mm
B, D & E steel = 2.95mm

F friction = 1.60mm
F steel = 1.78mm

Beat me to it you bugger

Saint.V8 · Sep 1, 2013

myfirstl322 said:
Just thought i'd belatedly mention it, i drove a Granada Scorpion many decades ago with this problem, actually, in hindsght, it was horrible all round, but the rumble was at low speed, or at least in 1st and 2nd ( auto).
Now i remember, it was a test drive jolly, no intention of buying the horrible barge. Bought an M5, D-reg, i was 19 lol.
I'm poorer now than i was then.

Not belated, but is repeated.....

I mentioned this to HC either in this post or another previously

But definatly worth mentioning again!!

holidaychicken · Sep 1, 2013

Bemble said:
Sorry, Im a bit pushed for time at the moment so Ill just provide a bit more information for now with a fuller reply to follow later.

hi Bemble, thanks for the info, i guessed you would be, i imagine your services and knowledge are very much in demand

i'm putting a shopping list together and will have a look at the plates tomorrow and will also send off my TC to Automatic Transmission Parts Distributors and Torque Converter Remanufacturers - Sussex Auto Parts as i go near there every week so can call in and collect if i need to

i am working through the ZF parts breakdown to get the relevant part numbers plus what you have already quoted me.

i could see clutch pistons but not seals or are they integral to the piston which needs to be changed complete.

any info you can share is gratefully received when you get chance
thanks

holidaychicken · Sep 1, 2013

Saint.V8 said:
Not belated, but is repeated.....

I mentioned this to HC either in this post or another previously

But definatly worth mentioning again!!

i cant remember when, i was a young man when i started this post but i am sure you did, it will probably turn out to be a flat tyre

myfirstl322 · Sep 1, 2013

OMG, we have a repeat, i repeat, we have a repeat,
:doh:

myfirstl322 · Sep 1, 2013

holidaychicken said:
i cant remember when, i was a young man when i started this post but i am sure you did, it will probably turn out to be a flat tyre

Did you check the galavanting shaft, they are prone to wander..

Thor1950 · Sep 1, 2013

Datatek said:
Without triangulation between the verticals, that lot could collapse like a line of domino's

just use a 1x10 0n the side and use fasteners 2'' gp screws

holidaychicken · Sep 1, 2013

Thor1950 said:
just use a 1x10 0n the side and use fasteners 2'' gp screws

thanks, that would work, i have got several pieces of wood running perpendicular to the vertical supports down the centre, in between the 2 scaffold boards which seems to be holding fine

i may be turning these into a flower pot holding display when i have finished the gearbox so i dont have to dismantle them and stacking them down the edge of my drive

holidaychicken · Sep 2, 2013

Bemble said:
Sorry, Im a bit pushed for time at the moment so Ill just provide a bit more information for now with a fuller reply to follow later.

The A & C clutch friction & steel plates are identical (A = 6 plates, C = 4 plates)

The B, D & E clutch friction and steel plates are identical (B = 6 plates, D = 4 plates, E = 5 plates)

The F plates are unique to the F-Brake (6 plates)

Its common to have to drill out the F drum countersunk screws because they seize on the taper but its important to remove just the countersunk top (they go with a pop as the tension is released). If you drill down into the screw itself theres a chance that youll go all the way through and into the piston.

The calculations shown in the repair manual to determine the clutch pack clearance (which is adjusted using different thickness snap rings to retain the end plates) are complicated by the wavy plate (between the piston and the first steel plate) being compressible. The procedure is therefore to preload the clutch pack with 200N of force before the height measurements are made. I use a 20kg weight for this purpose.

However, the control system in the 5HP24 is so sensitive to clutch slip (by immediately dropping into failsafe mode if it senses any) its unusual for the clutch plates to wear. If the friction plates are dark brown in colour (rather than black) and theres no heat spots on the steel plates then theyre probably okay. As a rough guide the individual plate thicknesses should be :

A & C friction = 1.55mm
A & C steel = 2.07mm

B, D & E friction = 1.61mm
B, D & E steel = 2.95mm

F friction = 1.60mm
F steel = 1.78mm

not sure what phase this is but update anyway

we stripped all the clutches out to measure the friction and steel plates.
we have written onto another table from another post, most likely one of bemble's. the A clutch dimensions shown are just after the decimal point, ie .54 is actually 1.54 and the steels show .1 which is actually 2.1.

the snap ring thickness is shown at the top but we haven't measured an overall stack height when compressed yet as wanted to check the plate condition first

the B clutch showed most wear with dark plates and hot spots on most of the steels, also a bit of wear on the F clutch

we only noticed the different tooth on the spring plate shown below after we removed it so not sure if it goes back in a certain place...

any thoughts anyone ?

holidaychicken · Sep 2, 2013

loads more pics here of various clutch bits holidaychicken's Library | Photobucket

and here CLUTCH INSPECTION Photos by holidaychicken | Photobucket

getting quite a family album.....

Bemble · Sep 2, 2013

All looking fine so far. The fact that the three buffer pads on the B-clutch hub are untouched indicates that the B-clutch hub/C-clutch drum bearing is still okay and therefore the O-ring on the input shaft is still intact. Can you separate the B-clutch drum assembly from the input shaft to check? Just hold the assembly vertical by the B-clutch drum with the end of the input shaft touching the bench, lift it slightly and tap the input shaft on the bench and the B-clutch assembly will drop down off its spline and separate from the A-clutch assembly.

I dont think youre going to find anything wrong in there (the whole transmission I mean). If you want the valve block checking over, just let me know.

holidaychicken · Sep 2, 2013

Bemble said:
All looking fine so far. The fact that the three buffer pads on the B-clutch hub are untouched indicates that the B-clutch hub/C-clutch drum bearing is still okay and therefore the O-ring on the input shaft is still intact. Can you separate the B-clutch drum assembly from the input shaft to check? Just hold the assembly vertical by the B-clutch drum with the end of the input shaft touching the bench, lift it slightly and tap the input shaft on the bench and the B-clutch assembly will drop down off its spline and separate from the A-clutch assembly.

I dont think youre going to find anything wrong in there (the whole transmission I mean). If you want the valve block checking over, just let me know

and i thought there was a lot of parts in the clutches!!

that would be ideal if you could have a look at the valve block, shall i send some close up pics or what do you need?

do the burn / hot spots which are on the B clutch steel plates matter and should i be changing them and the friction plates as preventative maintenance , i dont want to take this out again if i can help it?

i'm away a couple of days so will separate the parts you mention when i get back, if you get chance, could you have a look at the pdf below and tell me what parts you are referring to to separate as i struggle sometimes identifying which parts are which

http://www.jpat.co.uk/92%20ZF%204%205HP24.pdf

i think its the left hand end of the part shown on the image below, the part furthest away on the far left?

i will be changing the o rings as part of the service kit including the piston o rings, would it be a good idea to change all the bearings or am i going to be spending loads unnecessarily ?

thanks very much for your help

oil leak from gearbox?

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