New offence of "keeping a vehicle without insurance"

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A

Alan J. Wylie

Guest

As seen on the Register[1], the government is creating a new offence
of "keeping a vehicle without insurance"[2]. How is this going to
affect all the enthusiasts of old vehicles who have everything from a
Land-Rover that "just needs a new bulkhead fitted" sitting off road,
to people with a big pile of spare parts?

[1] <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/15/vehicle_movement_database/>
[2] <http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=176903&NewsAreaID=2>

--
Alan J. Wylie http://www.wylie.me.uk/
"Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add,
but rather when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
Taken from [2] :-
'New proposals, tabled as amendments to the Road Safety Bill in September
2005, will make it an offence to be the keeper of a vehicle, the use of
which is not insured. This would apply to vehicles that were not declared as
being off the road through a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) and were
not insured.....'

In other words if you use a SORNed vehicle on the road, you will be
prosecuted. Or if you use a vehicle for means other than it is insured for,
you will be prosecuted. This means you will be prosecuted for using an
uninsured vehicle on the road. I personally have no problems with that. Ever
been hit by an uninsured vehicle?

Stew.


--
1990 Ninety 2.5 n/a D (Jasmine) - the off-road toy
Ex- Freelander Td4 5dr owner - the worst vehicle I have ever had!!!
New Jeep Cherokee Ltd 2.8CRD Auto - freelander replacement.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan J. Wylie" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landrover
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 6:20 PM
Subject: New offence of "keeping a vehicle without insurance"


>
> As seen on the Register[1], the government is creating a new offence
> of "keeping a vehicle without insurance"[2]. How is this going to
> affect all the enthusiasts of old vehicles who have everything from a
> Land-Rover that "just needs a new bulkhead fitted" sitting off road,
> to people with a big pile of spare parts?
>
> [1] <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/15/vehicle_movement_database/>
> [2]
> <http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=176903&NewsAreaID=2>
>
> --
> Alan J. Wylie
> http://www.wylie.me.uk/
> "Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add,
> but rather when there is nothing left to take away."
> -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery



 
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:37:07 -0000, "90ninety" <[email protected]> said:

> Taken from [2] :- 'New proposals, tabled as amendments to the Road
> Safety Bill in September 2005, will make it an offence to be the
> keeper of a vehicle, the use of which is not insured. This would
> apply to vehicles that were not declared as being off the road
> through a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) and were not
> insured.....'


Ah - well spotted - panic over. Shame that all the news sites that I
visited didn't make it clearer. Must remember to read all the small
print and footnotes more carefully next time.

[2] <http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=176903&NewsAreaID=2>

--
Alan J. Wylie http://www.wylie.me.uk/
"Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add,
but rather when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:37:07 -0000, "90ninety"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In other words if you use a SORNed vehicle on the road, you will be
>prosecuted. Or if you use a vehicle for means other than it is insured for,
>you will be prosecuted. This means you will be prosecuted for using an
>uninsured vehicle on the road. I personally have no problems with that. Ever
>been hit by an uninsured vehicle?


Driver _and_ Registered person on the V5 if they be different.


--
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005
 
90ninety wrote:
> Taken from [2] :-
> 'New proposals, tabled as amendments to the Road Safety Bill in September
> 2005, will make it an offence to be the keeper of a vehicle, the use of
> which is not insured. This would apply to vehicles that were not declared as
> being off the road through a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) and were
> not insured.....'
>
> In other words if you use a SORNed vehicle on the road, you will be
> prosecuted. Or if you use a vehicle for means other than it is insured for,
> you will be prosecuted. This means you will be prosecuted for using an
> uninsured vehicle on the road. I personally have no problems with that. Ever
> been hit by an uninsured vehicle?
>
> Stew.
>
>



All insurance is a con......

I don't have any vehicle insuance for my motorcycles, cars or 4X4's. I
put aside a monthly sum that is about a third of the insurance premiums,
for 'just in case'.

My mate has a motorcycle that he has had insured over the last ten
years, and the money he has spent on insurance could have brought him
another bike!

An insurance payout is far from gauranteed, as they have so many
loopholes in the contracts.

Sod them all, theiving lowlife bottom feeders.......

If everyone drove defensively, there wouldn't be a need for insurance.
the best insurance is you, the driver.......

Brian NZ

And yes, I have been hit by an uninsured driver....I took him to court
and got my money. Granted, it took a bit longer than an insurance payout
(if they would have payed out...the vehicle didn't have a warrant of
fitness, so it was 'unroadworthy' anyway!)
 
In message <[email protected]> you wrote:


><http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=176903&NewsAreaID=2>
>

I've just tried to access this URL and get the following;

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please upgrade your browser

The GNN website strives to achieve a high standard of accessibility and
functionality. Unfortunately your browser version will not be able to
get the best out of the site so we would ask that you use the links
below to update your browser version. Please note that all downloads
are free:

Click here to download the latest version of IE

Click here to download the latest version of Netscape"
----------------------------------------------------------------------

They only strive to achieve a high standard of accessibility and
functionality if you use either of the above browsers, and if you don't
use IE or Netscrape, they do not offer an alternative way in, now that
really would achieve accessibility.

Steve.


--
Vehicle Painting Pointers: http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus.
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce
 
Brian wrote:

> All insurance is a con......
>
> I don't have any vehicle insuance for my motorcycles, cars or 4X4's. I
> put aside a monthly sum that is about a third of the insurance premiums,
> for 'just in case'.


Doesn't cover you from being sued though.

Steve
 
Steve wrote:
> Brian wrote:
>
>> All insurance is a con......
>>
>> I don't have any vehicle insuance for my motorcycles, cars or 4X4's. I
>> put aside a monthly sum that is about a third of the insurance
>> premiums, for 'just in case'.

>
>
> Doesn't cover you from being sued though.
>
> Steve



When it comes to injury, you can't sue down here. We are all covered by
the govt. ACC (Accident Compensation Commission) scheme. We all pay into
this through our wages and vehicle registration. It's a 'no-fault' scheme.

Brian NZ
 
In message <[email protected]>, Stephen Hull
<[email protected]> writes
>In message <[email protected]> you wrote:
>
>
>><http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=176903&NewsAreaID=2>
>>

>I've just tried to access this URL and get the following;
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Please upgrade your browser
>
>The GNN website strives to achieve a high standard of accessibility and
>functionality. Unfortunately your browser version will not be able to
>get the best out of the site so we would ask that you use the links
>below to update your browser version. Please note that all downloads
>are free:
>
>Click here to download the latest version of IE
>
>Click here to download the latest version of Netscape"
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>They only strive to achieve a high standard of accessibility and
>functionality if you use either of the above browsers, and if you don't
>use IE or Netscrape, they do not offer an alternative way in, now that
>really would achieve accessibility.
>
>Steve.


The URL works (for me) with Firefox.
--
Peter

 

"Brian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steve wrote:
> > Brian wrote:
> >
> >> All insurance is a con......
> >>
> >> I don't have any vehicle insuance for my motorcycles, cars or 4X4's. I
> >> put aside a monthly sum that is about a third of the insurance
> >> premiums, for 'just in case'.

> >
> >
> > Doesn't cover you from being sued though.
> >
> > Steve

>
>
> When it comes to injury, you can't sue down here. We are all covered by
> the govt. ACC (Accident Compensation Commission) scheme. We all pay into
> this through our wages and vehicle registration. It's a 'no-fault' scheme.
>
> Brian NZ


Thats one thing i reckon us Aussies should copy from the Kiwis. we are very
quickly going down the "sue 'em for all they're worth" type system with 8
million dollar payouts etc. Rather than a compensation scheme with far more
realistic outcomes.

Sam.


 
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 18:37:07 -0000, "90ninety"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Taken from [2] :-
> 'New proposals, tabled as amendments to the Road Safety Bill in September
>2005, will make it an offence to be the keeper of a vehicle, the use of
>which is not insured. This would apply to vehicles that were not declared as
>being off the road through a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) and were
>not insured.....'
>
>In other words if you use a SORNed vehicle on the road, you will be
>prosecuted. Or if you use a vehicle for means other than it is insured for,
>you will be prosecuted. This means you will be prosecuted for using an
>uninsured vehicle on the road. I personally have no problems with that. Ever
>been hit by an uninsured vehicle?
>


No, and you havnt either. Vehicles are not insured, drivers are. This
is because the vehicle itself is not a risk, the driver behind the
wheel is the risk. A stationary vehicle, parked on a driveway involved
no risk to third parties at all, why does it have to be insured?

Ensuring that vehicles are insured by linking the insurance register
to vehicles will achieve nothing, for two reasons:

1. The concept has gaping holes: for example: A vehicle which someone
borrows, with the consent of the owner, will have insurance at any
roadside check the police do from thier ANPR vans (assuming the owner
has insured it) When the driver has an accident, he is still
uninsured if he does not have an isurance policy for that vehicle. And
you won't find the vehicles insurer paying out. Achievement: nothing.

2. People who currently operate outside the law will continue to buy
cars down the pub for £50 which have no tax, MOT, insurance and may
not even have a licence. And they will continue to drive them, usually
in a reckless and dangerous manner. Achievement: nothing

Aside from these completely redundant measures which will allow the
police to appear to have an effect by blanketing the country with
cameras and computers whilst actually reducing the number of officers
on the roads actually dealing with crime, i have a further problem
with this:

Why the hell should i have to pay two lots of insurance premium beause
i happen to own two cars? I can only drive one at any one time,
therefore i don't see why the bloody hell i should fork out for two
lots of risk of driving. Owning a second car doesn't double the risk
of me having an accident, it stays exactly the same as if i was using
one car twice as much.

And in case you're wondering, yes i am fully insured to DRIVE the
vehicles i do drive.

Alex
 
Samuel wrote:

> Thats one thing i reckon us Aussies should copy from the Kiwis. we are very
> quickly going down the "sue 'em for all they're worth" type system with 8
> million dollar payouts etc. Rather than a compensation scheme with far more
> realistic outcomes.
>
> Sam.
>
>


I like the system. After being run down by a car (I was on a motorcycle
that he 'didn't see') I spent 6 months in hospital having my leg
repaired and getting a new hip. I got $10,000 (the max.) for 'pain and
suffering' and all my hospital/operations/doctors visits/medication for
free. ACC even helped me to retrain as I couldn't do my old job anymore,
so I'm finacially better off as well as having a cruisier job!

Yet I see cases in the states where people break an arm and expect
millions.....totally unrealistic.

But one thing you shouldn't copy, is our 'Employment Relations Act'
which will cripple your unions and drive pay rates down. I saw some
Aussie protests on the news the other night, and it remined me of NZ in
the eary '90's.......the protests did nothing for us! Don't let Mr
Howard lead you down that path if you can help it.

Brian NZ
 
On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:41:46 +0000 (UTC), Stephen Hull <[email protected]> said:

>> <http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=176903&NewsAreaID=2>
>>

> I've just tried to access this URL and get the following;


> Please upgrade your browser


Works fine for me with:
firefox
amaya
w3m
lynx
links
dillo
konqueror

For once, I'm not inclined to blame the government.

--
Alan J. Wylie http://www.wylie.me.uk/
"Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add,
but rather when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 

"Alex" wrote (SORN) and were
>>not insured.....'

>
> Why the hell should i have to pay two lots of insurance premium beause
> i happen to own two cars? I can only drive one at any one time,
> therefore i don't see why the bloody hell i should fork out for two
> lots of risk of driving. Owning a second car doesn't double the risk
> of me having an accident, it stays exactly the same as if i was using
> one car twice as much.
>
> And in case you're wondering, yes i am fully insured to DRIVE the
> vehicles i do drive.
>


So have you got an Insurance that covers both vehicles? I thought only
"Trade" could get those?

--
Regards
Bob
1974 S111 SWB 2.25 petrol Hardtop (For Sale)
1987 90 2.5 petrol Hardtop


 
On or around Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:47:00 +1300, Brian <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Steve wrote:
>> Brian wrote:
>>
>>> All insurance is a con......
>>>
>>> I don't have any vehicle insuance for my motorcycles, cars or 4X4's. I
>>> put aside a monthly sum that is about a third of the insurance
>>> premiums, for 'just in case'.

>>
>>
>> Doesn't cover you from being sued though.
>>
>> Steve

>
>
>When it comes to injury, you can't sue down here. We are all covered by
>the govt. ACC (Accident Compensation Commission) scheme. We all pay into
>this through our wages and vehicle registration. It's a 'no-fault' scheme.


this is a much more sensible system than we have here... compulsory "third
party only" insurance for any vehicle in use or kept on the road, which is
bought on the open market so they can, within reason, charge what they want.

e.g.: some months ago a bloke driving a minibus was sufficiently careless
or stupid as to be involved in an accident which ended with it upside down,
on its roof, and a child dead, ISTR. As a result, all of us who run
minibuses on school contracts find it more difficult to get insurance and
more expensive. Yet, it transpires, the bloke wasn't correctly licensed nor
insured for the use to which the vehicle was put. So the insurers have paid
out sod-all, or if they have, will be trying to get it back. But that don't
stop us all having to pay extra.

Under your scheme ("your" meaning "NZs"), if you're sufficiently careless as
to run into someone else's car and wreck it under conditions which make it
clear that it was all or mostly your fault, who pays for the bloke's car?
Does the scheme cover that as well, or is it down to you?


Personally, I'd like to see some of the money we get ripped off in taxation
for the privilege of running vehicles in this country diverted into a basic,
no-frills third party insurance scheme, with realistic payouts (and no
spurious claims for whiplash or bruising or other ****) for personal injury
and covering the cost of claims to repair cars or other property where or to
the extent that it's deemed to be the first party's fault. Anyone wanting
theft, fire or comprehensive cover could then go and buy it in the open
market as they do now.

I'd even support a modest increase in the road fund licence to make it
include such a scheme.

The insurance costs would need looking at - if you remove third party claims
from the equation, the risk the insco is taking is smaller and as such the
cover shoudl cost less. If this didn't happen, I'd favour the government
leaning on the inscos or threatening to.

Silly thing is, they have something a bit like this only much more limited
in place anyway - There's something called the Motorists' uninsured loss
scheme or somesuch, which is supposed to pay out for third party injuries
caused by uninsured drivers. Dunno if it does.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world
of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without
boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994)
 
On or around Tue, 15 Nov 2005 22:38:24 +0000, Alex
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>No, and you havnt either. Vehicles are not insured, drivers are. This
>is because the vehicle itself is not a risk, the driver behind the
>wheel is the risk. A stationary vehicle, parked on a driveway involved
>no risk to third parties at all, why does it have to be insured?


it doesn't, AFAIK. but if it's parked on the road, it does.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world
of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without
boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994)
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:47:00 +1300, Brian <[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >Steve wrote:
> >> Brian wrote:
> >>
> >>> All insurance is a con......
> >>>
> >>> I don't have any vehicle insuance for my motorcycles, cars or 4X4's. I
> >>> put aside a monthly sum that is about a third of the insurance
> >>> premiums, for 'just in case'.
> >>
> >>
> >> Doesn't cover you from being sued though.
> >>
> >> Steve

> >
> >
> >When it comes to injury, you can't sue down here. We are all covered by
> >the govt. ACC (Accident Compensation Commission) scheme. We all pay into
> >this through our wages and vehicle registration. It's a 'no-fault' scheme.

>
> this is a much more sensible system than we have here... compulsory "third
> party only" insurance for any vehicle in use or kept on the road, which is
> bought on the open market so they can, within reason, charge what they want.
>
> e.g.: some months ago a bloke driving a minibus was sufficiently careless
> or stupid as to be involved in an accident which ended with it upside down,
> on its roof, and a child dead, ISTR. As a result, all of us who run
> minibuses on school contracts find it more difficult to get insurance and
> more expensive. Yet, it transpires, the bloke wasn't correctly licensed nor
> insured for the use to which the vehicle was put. So the insurers have paid
> out sod-all, or if they have, will be trying to get it back. But that don't
> stop us all having to pay extra.
>


That's due to the insurers having to pay out under the "Uninsured drivers
scheme" (it's got a proper posh name) that all the insurance companies
sign up to. They may well try and recover the money from the driver
- probably, though, the bloke would have no money to pay anyway.

Whether it's "fair" to effectively get us all to pay a premium into
this scheme is open to debate, but what really annoys me is that
in such a circumstance as you describe the bloke must have known
he was not insured, but he will still be able to get insurance, though
probably at a price. Personaly I'd like to see the scheme altered such
that anyone who knowingly drives uninsured gets one chance, and if caught
a second time would simply not be able to get insurance to drive at all,
at least for a substantial time.
Now that insurance status come up on a vehicle check, this would not be
too onerous to police, and would provide somethig of a deterrent since
at present having no insurance is a "big deal" to many, they just pay the
fine and carry on.

<snip>

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
On or around Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:22:01 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Personaly I'd like to see the scheme altered such
>that anyone who knowingly drives uninsured gets one chance, and if caught
>a second time would simply not be able to get insurance to drive at all,
>at least for a substantial time.


wouldn't work, though - they'd just carry on driving uninsured anyway; and
locking 'em up is not likely to be practical either. Nice idea in theory,
though.

I prefer the idea of having the basic third party stuff incorporated into
the tax disc (don't they do this in France?). OK, people with no tax and
MOT will still exist, but it reduces the chances a bit.

quite like the sound of the NZ scheme, in a way, though - take the personal
injury stuff out. I'd want something that covers the innocent parties'
property, though, as well - don't know if the NZ lot do that.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero" (sieze today, and put
as little trust as you can in tomorrow) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Odes, I.xi.8
 
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