My First Land Rover - Its got some issues!

Apologies in advance if these questions have already been answered. I have searched the forums for answers, but the issues are pretty hard to explain, let along trying to pick a couple of words to search on....

So first of all, a bit of background.
First of all, this is my first land rover and I am no mechanic. I am however, happy to have a go at anything, and feel I do have an ounce of common sense and while working in IT is not even remotely close to working on vehicles, I am fairly well rehearsed at stripping down components and putting things back together in a working state.

The Car;
The Log book shows the model as a Land Rover Freelander Xedi S-wagon. Its a 2 litre diesel and has done around 93k.
It has an almost full service history, was MOT'd and has a bunch of receipts and documents detailing all the work that has been carried out on it in recent history. (These are at home and I guess could prove useful in identifying the issue so I will post details of these later).

Essentially I have 3 issues, all of which I believe are completely independent.

The first and most pressing issue is that many of the electrics in the rear of the vehicle are not working as summarised below;

Working
Sidelights
Indicators

Not Working
Brake Lights (all three)
Reverse Lights
Rear Windsreen, including the heater and wiper / washer

The reason I am putting this at the top of my priority list if due to the brake lights, which I understand is a road offence not to have them working... On top of which its incredibly annoying not to have the rear window drop in / out of the seal when opening / close the rear door.
I have done some extremely basic troubleshooting of this, specifically around the brake lights. Using a voltage meter I can see there is a circuit between the positive and negative wires feeding the light, but I cannot pick-up any voltage change what so ever when trying to engage the brake lights, almost as if the circuit is fine, but whatever is telling the brake lights to turn on, just isn't doing it. Its exactly the same for the reverse lights too.
The cabling to the rear windscreen motor is a bit more complicated, so I am not 100% sure what I can test hear. However, I can hear a distinctive click from the motor when trying to raise or lower the rear window, which is accompanied by a single beep from the front console. This beep and click only occurs when trying to lower the window (presumably because its already raised to full height?).

My only thoughts are a bad earth or something similar which all the rear electrics share. If that's the case, I guess as the rear window would have a higher power draw than the lights and could possibly arc causing a brief blip of power, hence the audible click? This unfortunately doesn't stack up with the fact the voltage meter picks up there is a full circuit in place?
Also forgot to mention the obvious, I have checked all the fuses and bulbs for the affected lights and window.



So that's problem number 1 out of the way.
The next problem might not actually be an issue - but seeing as I have a guy I work with who has had land rovers for many years state he has never experienced this, its worth mentioning.

When reversing, the is a strong feeling of 'braking' occurring while the vehicle is in gear. This is far stronger than your usual engine braking, to the point where my land rover colleague swore that the handbrake was binding on the back wheels after taking it out for a spin himself. I have checked this by simply jacking up the vehicle and letting off the handbrake, then trying to roll the wheels, and they appear to be free as a bird.
One hindsight I did have was that I needed to of done this in reverse, as its only in reverse that you can feel the car braking if not accelerating. I'll repeat the aforementioned test while the vehicle is in reverse, but if this proves negative then I have to say it feels transmission / diff like, although in my simple head I would expect a diff problem to have the same impact going forwards or backwards?


Onto the last issue....
There is a very loud 'buzzing' coming from the engine bay when the ignition is turned on. This remains when the engine is running, although its just obviously much harder to hear.
I have traced it as best I can to the fuel pump area, and am fairly confident its a mechanical device, probably a solenoid. But beyond that, I cant isolate exactly where its coming from. Again this might not be an issue par se, but its fairly loud (I can easily record it and attach it to the thread if that's possible?) and again my landy friend has had a lot of rough cars in the past and has never had one that made that noise before.


I'm at the point of taking this vehicle into a garage to see what's up with it, but we bought the car on a whim as a convenience factor for myself, and as a gaurentee for the potential bad weather and snow. I don't want to spend a fortune fixing it, and if possible doing the work myself would be preferential, but know what the issues are in the first place has got me stumped

If anyone does have any insight as to what any of the above might be, it would certainly be much appreciated!

Dave_landy said:

Apologies in advance if these questions have already been answered. I have searched the forums for answers, but the issues are pretty hard to explain, let along trying to pick a couple of words to search on....

So first of all, a bit of background.
First of all, this is my first land rover and I am no mechanic. I am however, happy to have a go at anything, and feel I do have an ounce of common sense and while working in IT is not even remotely close to working on vehicles, I am fairly well rehearsed at stripping down components and putting things back together in a working state.

The Car;
The Log book shows the model as a Land Rover Freelander Xedi S-wagon. Its a 2 litre diesel and has done around 93k.
It has an almost full service history, was MOT'd and has a bunch of receipts and documents detailing all the work that has been carried out on it in recent history. (These are at home and I guess could prove useful in identifying the issue so I will post details of these later).

Essentially I have 3 issues, all of which I believe are completely independent.

The first and most pressing issue is that many of the electrics in the rear of the vehicle are not working as summarised below;

Working
Sidelights
Indicators

Not Working
Brake Lights (all three)
Reverse Lights
Rear Windsreen, including the heater and wiper / washer

The reason I am putting this at the top of my priority list if due to the brake lights, which I understand is a road offence not to have them working... On top of which its incredibly annoying not to have the rear window drop in / out of the seal when opening / close the rear door.
I have done some extremely basic troubleshooting of this, specifically around the brake lights. Using a voltage meter I can see there is a circuit between the positive and negative wires feeding the light, but I cannot pick-up any voltage change what so ever when trying to engage the brake lights, almost as if the circuit is fine, but whatever is telling the brake lights to turn on, just isn't doing it. Its exactly the same for the reverse lights too.
The cabling to the rear windscreen motor is a bit more complicated, so I am not 100% sure what I can test hear. However, I can hear a distinctive click from the motor when trying to raise or lower the rear window, which is accompanied by a single beep from the front console. This beep and click only occurs when trying to lower the window (presumably because its already raised to full height?).

My only thoughts are a bad earth or something similar which all the rear electrics share. If that's the case, I guess as the rear window would have a higher power draw than the lights and could possibly arc causing a brief blip of power, hence the audible click? This unfortunately doesn't stack up with the fact the voltage meter picks up there is a full circuit in place?
Also forgot to mention the obvious, I have checked all the fuses and bulbs for the affected lights and window.



So that's problem number 1 out of the way.
The next problem might not actually be an issue - but seeing as I have a guy I work with who has had land rovers for many years state he has never experienced this, its worth mentioning.

When reversing, the is a strong feeling of 'braking' occurring while the vehicle is in gear. This is far stronger than your usual engine braking, to the point where my land rover colleague swore that the handbrake was binding on the back wheels after taking it out for a spin himself. I have checked this by simply jacking up the vehicle and letting off the handbrake, then trying to roll the wheels, and they appear to be free as a bird.
One hindsight I did have was that I needed to of done this in reverse, as its only in reverse that you can feel the car braking if not accelerating. I'll repeat the aforementioned test while the vehicle is in reverse, but if this proves negative then I have to say it feels transmission / diff like, although in my simple head I would expect a diff problem to have the same impact going forwards or backwards?


Onto the last issue....
There is a very loud 'buzzing' coming from the engine bay when the ignition is turned on. This remains when the engine is running, although its just obviously much harder to hear.
I have traced it as best I can to the fuel pump area, and am fairly confident its a mechanical device, probably a solenoid. But beyond that, I cant isolate exactly where its coming from. Again this might not be an issue par se, but its fairly loud (I can easily record it and attach it to the thread if that's possible?) and again my landy friend has had a lot of rough cars in the past and has never had one that made that noise before.


I'm at the point of taking this vehicle into a garage to see what's up with it, but we bought the car on a whim as a convenience factor for myself, and as a gaurentee for the potential bad weather and snow. I don't want to spend a fortune fixing it, and if possible doing the work myself would be preferential, but know what the issues are in the first place has got me stumped

If anyone does have any insight as to what any of the above might be, it would certainly be much appreciated!

Click to expand...

Honestly I cringe every time I see a first post like this

OK from the top

:welcome2:

Also welcome to the green oval you say your no mechanic ...... well you soon will be ....

Get your self a manual either download the free RAVE one or haines.

I think the reversing thing is a, either normal for a freelander or fist signs of knackered VCU cant remember which there are plenty of threads on that subject.

All three brake lights not working is most likely to be the pedal activated switch. Assuming you have alreaady checked the bulbs

Reversing light again my money is one the switch. I've no idea where that is on a freebie maybe some kind freelanderer will tell you to RTFM. or even tell you where to go ... er sorry look.

As for the rear window etc I'd be fairly sure it's an earth fault but I believe there is also something odd about the rear window specifically but cant remember what

There is i believe a thread or two about them too especially what to look out for when buying a freelander.

Dont worry about the buzzing, that, I believe is normal unless tis very loud.

:welcome2: agian and think yerself lucky it's the season of good will an all that

Welcome too,

Brake lights more likely switch by the pedal, rear windscreen problems check the wiring through back door first before anything else. Reverse light is the switch under console by gear stick i think. but haynes is ur friend easy to trace wiring routes and stuff.

As above, 12 months with the Freelander you'll feel like youve rebuilt it a dozen times and you'll be half way to a city n guilds!!!

Do the rear brake lights work wiv the engine off, lectrics on? What about the front wipers wiv and wivout the engine running, lectrics on?

Brake switch replacement at the top of the Freelander section, over ere:
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f9/3-amigo-brake-light-switch-replacement-guide-125617.html

Reversing problem un being tight: due to the way the Freelander transmission works this happens. The short answer is to test your vcu as per the video in me sig below, to see how yer vcu is performing. It may be yer vcu is tighter than normal, un needs replaced soon. Make sure yer tyres are ALL the same make, model un size.

The bit longer answer

Hippo said:

This ere vcu un transmission problem… If yer tratter gets cross axled yer stuck. ound: 1 spinning front un 1 spinning rear wheel renders yer tratter a shed. This is coz power goes to the wheels wiv the least grip, front un rear. If it had locking front un rear diffs then no problem. Lock em up un orf yer goes. If it has traction control then this will abs pulse the brakes on the spinning wheels, allowing power to go to the wheels wiv the grip (the one not spinning) on the same axle.

Freelanders are completely different as they is betterer. The front wheels turn slightly faster to make it feel more like a front wheel drive road car. This removes the vagueness of the steering you see on traditional bulky rusty 4x4’s. The front wheels are driven by the engine, gearbox then the ird (fixed ratio transfer box). While this is happening the rear wheels follow along un turn due to the road going by. The ratio of front to rear is important. The vcu located in between the prop shafts slips most of the time whilst on road. If the difference in speed of the front to rear prop shaft increases above a certain amount, then a sheering effect happens wiv in the vcu, causing the silicon to sort of seize up, or thicken. The plates inside the vcu sort of lock together, un power from the front prop is transferred to the rear prop. Hence all 4 wheels is driven by the engine/gearbox/ird. Coupled wiv traction control to brake pulse spinning wheels, un a light body work wiv out a rusty chassis, un you start to see why Freelanders is so good orf road, fer what they is. Now in practise it’s often said that Freelanders are 60% front, 95% front or some other figure that we dun’t have proof of which describes the ratio of drive to the front/rear wheels under normal conditions. Somewhere there’s an equilibrium value of ratio split, but we don’t know for sure what it is. Hence me suspicions over the figures. The later ratio ird’s (2001 model year onwards – started late 2000) stopped vcu’s locking up so much. If yer gets a td4 or v6 then it will have the later ratio, which is smaller than the old ratio. Hence betterer as it means the front un rear wheels turn at a closer ratio to each other. If yer gets an L series diesel or 1.8 petrol then it will have the old less betterer ratio, that int as kind to the transmission. Unless someone has updated it to the later ration. Driving a Freelander wiv a seized vcu on tarmac will have the effect of transmission wind up. Something has to give. Normally it's the ird or/and the rear diff. A costly repair if not spotted before it happens.

Vcu’s can fail by going open circuit permanently, or seizing. If seizing then this puts permanent transmission wind up in yer transmission. The ird and/or the rear diff will then fail. If yer does the torque test below in ma vid this will give you an idea if yer vcu is ok. 32mm nut. Be prepared for a faulty vcu and test before the repair cost goes up.

Click to expand...

Search on ere fer somin called the rave disk. It's the LR bible fer fixing yer LR. About 650meg. Yer has ter brun it as an iso file to cd un fings like that. But you's IT people will be ok.

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/rave-disk-maintenance-manual.260227/

earth locations:

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help - Already been going down the road many of you have pointed me at today, seeing as its my first day back in the office since getting the car, its been my first real chance to start reading up on it....

I'll have a look at the switches tonight, and had already got printed off the earthing points from the rave manual (that things an incredible piece of work!), but thanks for confirming thats the bible Hippo )
Also, the brake lights done come on regardless whether the engine is running or not, so again I guess this points at the switch...

I also came across a post regarding VCU's and I believe Hippo and Bromsgrove have already intimated this may be the issue.

"If your Freelander feels "tight" or it appears the brakes are binding, especially when reversing on full lock, this means your existing VCU is past its servicable life and you should change it as soon as possible. A damaged VCU put massive strain on the rest of your transmission line, causing the IRD unit, rear diff and gearbox to wear at a hugely accelerated rate, and will cause a very costly failure of these parts. A VCU's servicable life span is usually no more than 70k miles, but it can be a lot less (we have seen cars with failures at 30k miles) depending on how the car has been driven.

Click to expand...

Looks like I have a bit of work to do, but looking through the posts on this forum there's bags of advice kicking around so fingers crossed its within my ability to do the work required!

Thanks again guys - I'll keep you posted with how I get on.

Dave_landy said:

Thanks again guys - I'll keep you posted with how I get on.

Click to expand...

Good man, good luck!

You`ve bought a gay one............the rears been hammered:hysterically_laughi

nearly all reverse light switches are on the gear box tell me have you tested the actual bulbs just wondering foot brake switch is easy if it is that . window that could be the cables the going backwards my wifes freelander 1800 petrol is a bit (tight) going backwards mine is Ok TD4 auto if your window is not fully up washer and wipper will not work hope this helps

Update:

I have removed the brake switch and can confirm its functioning fine. I have put a voltage meter across the pins and completes the circuit when the switch is depressed, and closes the circuit when I push the sensor in.
After testing that I doubled checked it wasn't something silly like the sensor not being depressed enough (i noticed it was fairly sensitive and didn't open the circuit until the last mm or two), but alas no... The brake lights still didn't come on with the sensor fully depressed, and I tried with the ignition on, sidelights off and on, and the same with the engine running.
Back to square one with the brake lights!

I then thought I'd just lift up the gate on the gear stick. I didn't know where the switch would be for detecting reverse, and while I would of been surprised to see it there, I thought I would check anyway. Interestingly, there was a rather disturbing site of a pair of cables just cut off after a plug and socket, and just left there laying on the bear chassis. I have absolutely no idea what this is for, so I will be checking some wiring diagrams tonight to try and figure out what it could be - Any ideas?







Just going back to the VCU - I take it the consensus is 'JFDI'?
I have seen one on John Craddock for £338, but they literally only do one, no variation for model or year etc. I think I probably just need to look into whether this is suitable for mine or not I guess.

The reverse light switch is mounted onto the gearbox itself rather than on the gear stick - thats looks like the connection for the HDC switch on the gear stick - are your warning lights on for this 'TC' and possibly HDC and ABS as well.

I would use your multi meter and trace the brake light wiring starting at the fuse box and working your way along through each component until the power is not present.

pretty sure that the 12v supply dor the aux 12v socket for rear seats, by ashtray rear of centre console.

also considering that your whole rear end bumpers/door electrics are shot, the issue might be further back, new bumper and door fitted recently? just a thought.

No warning lights to speak of - the ABS light comes on with the rest when you turn the ignition on, but doest go out until I drive off (whereas the rest drop off shortly after starting the ignition).

Good shout on the rear 12v socket - that's the only thing in the centre console, and the wires in question do run in that direction. I'll test that tomorrow with my sat nav charger as the actual cigarette lighter doest fit in the rear socket!

RE the back bumper and door - AFAIK they are not new, in fact I am certain the back door isn't new because of the state of it inside!
I'll look to trace the wires for the brake light, but as mentioned the voltage meter believes the circuit is fine for the brake lights, so I wouldn't expect to find anything different no matter where I test the circuit. I guess I need to figure out why no voltage is being passed down that circuit when the brakes are engaged. Unless of course me checking the state of the circuit from the light is a false test, i.e the live is always live and the negative is grounded? But then the light should always be on? God I hate electrics!!!!

Am hoping tomorrow lunch to get a look at the reverse light switch, so I will update when I have had a look at that and see if that's the same story as the brake switch...

Just thought I'd post some costs on replacing the VCU on here for other that maybe looking to do the same....

Here are some rough costs for the VCU and the associated bearings, which I am told are almost certainly needed as its rare to remove the VCU without damaging the bearings. And considering the cost of these bearings in relation to what you are spending on a VCU, its well worth doing.

VCU (New) - £460
VCU (Refurb) - £200
Bearings (3rd party brand) - £29 for the pair
Bearings (GKN) - £112 for the pair

Fitting - £120

Now many people have mentioned Bell Engineering as a recommended supplier for cheaper VCU's. These appear to come in at only £200 (providing you hand back your old VCU for them to recycle) which is obviously a bucket load cheaper then buying one new, and you get 12 months warranty with it...

Personally, I am going to try and get hold of Bell Engineering today (as my new toy is certainly giving me signs its not happy any more!) and will go for the 3rd party bearings. I'd have to replace these 4 times as often as the premium ones to make the GKN bearings worthwhile...


Still not had chance to test the rear 12v socket to prove that's what the cut wires were for, or to get under the car and check out the reverse light switch - I suspect this will have to wait until the weekend now.
Same with the brake lights I guess - It seems I need to unbolt the rear seats in order to remove the panelling in the boot so I can access all the wiring. Might be able to pry it back enough to check the earthing points, but again with it being so dam dark in the evenings its might be easier to wait until Saturday.

Finally got around to removing the prop shaft today - Wasn't too bad a job to be honest, but the VCU is categorically knackered.... Once I had the 2 accessible bolts removed from the prop shaft at the rear of the vehicle, I needed to rotate the wheel on one side of the car in order to turn the shaft to access the other bolts. This too both me and my dad (neither of us are exactly considered weak) to turn the wheel (mainly because we didn't have a long torque wrench or equivalent to aid us).
Anyway, the rest was a breeze, albeit letting down the entirely shaft safely and evenly was a little awkward when laying under the vehicle.

I still have yet to remove the front prop shaft from the VCU bearings as its stuck fast, so I need to get a wedge to know in there putting pressure against the bolt head as per the Rave manual, will probably sort this out tomorrow or Monday.

One question I do have though... I have seen reference to a Torsional Damper only being applicable to the 'K 1.8 Models' - Mine is a 2.0 Diesel L series I believe, so why on earth would there be one fitting on this Landy? It may well be the reference I have seen to the model is incorrect, in which case it probably isn't an issue. But... If I shouldn't have one of these by default, will it cause any harm, should I remove it when the new VCU is installed?

Some pics of how I got on;














You can see how nice and straight the bearings were fitted





Here you can see the VCU and the Torsional Damper I referred to - Would love to know whether this should / shouldn't be there on my model.



And a little vid showing how bad the bearings are - Not overly noisy, but they don't spin very well at all.

Landy Stuff :: 00000.mp4 video by crimond84 - Photobucket

Just drove the landy for the 1st time since taking the prop shaft off and wow... What a difference!
I can go a good 500 - 600 revs lower per gear with no strain or vibration noticeable on the vehicle, not to mention how free cornering and reversing now feels...

I dont know how much of that I will 'lose' when the prop shaft and new VCU goes back on, but I am amazed at the difference without it.

Don't suppose anyone has any idea on the Torsional Damper at all? Also, if it is perfectly fine / meant to be there, do I need to remove this before sending the VCU back to Bell Engineering?

The outer ring on the damper has been removed (they become separated) either remove the damper or replace, recon exchange VCU unit comes complete with a new damper, just send the VCU and damper back to Bells.

Yer need to make yerself some hipporamps:

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/hipporamps-how-to-guide.257760/


EGR3kqR

Ya know what.... I had a look to see if I could make them before I started but didn't have enough wood and wasn't confident enough using bricks. The ramps are £60 a pair online so sod that, but I will make an effort to get something sorted for when I reassemble everything.

Mind if I ask what you made yours from?