More Disco.. what's going on?

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Guys I've been reading up again and what's with all this talk of the early Discos ( mine is a 94 ) needing a FULL mod with a new timing cover and fuel pump bracket?

So can I not just fit a new toothed pulley and tensioner and idler pulley?

Col
 
Guys I've been reading up again and what's with all this talk of the early Discos ( mine is a 94 ) needing a FULL mod with a new timing cover and fuel pump bracket?

So can I not just fit a new toothed pulley and tensioner and idler pulley?

Col


Hi Col, my understanding re the mod & non-mod kits, the only difference between the two is that the mod kit has, in addition, a new crankshaft cambelt pulley with a skirt on it to stop the belt wandering. You may find that it has been done already.

It has imo nothing to do with new timing cover or fuel pump brackets.

Dave
 
Hi Col, my understanding re the mod & non-mod kits, the only difference between the two is that the mod kit has, in addition, a new crankshaft cambelt pulley with a skirt on it to stop the belt wandering. You may find that it has been done already.

It has imo nothing to do with new timing cover or fuel pump brackets.

Dave

Hi Dave

I've done a bit of reading up.

There were two mod kits ...

Kit 1 had the new belt pulley with the side lips, a new tensioner pulley with no lips, new idler pulley, a new bracket for the fuel pump and a new timing case. The cost was substantial and initially around 200 quid. Probably could be acquired cheaper than that.

Kit 2 just had the belt pulley, tensioner and idler.

Obviously both had new belts.

As a rough guide the very early ones from about 94/95 needed the full kit 1 and the next ones 96/97 needed kit 2.

Mine has had neither fitted as it still has the original type non lipped toothed belt pulley and the old lipped tensioner. The belt has worn on the first 6 - 10mm.

If I'm to do the mod then I need to get a puller kit when the shops open again. I then need to try and get the old pulley off. Then fit the new mod kit ( whichever I need ). If it's a full kit 1 with a new case then we are getting expensive here by the time I've bought a new torsion damper pulley.

After I've done that and got it running the car is now due for MOT. Also there's the issue of whether the head gasket has gone.

So I'm wondering whether it's just best to put a new belt on and bodge the keyway and fit the new damper pulley and get it MOT'd.

I'd be ****ed off if I spend a couple of hundred getting the timing modded and the damper done and then it fails a million things on MOT or I need a new engine anyway because the repair to crankshaft fails.

Col
 
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... from another site ...


300Tdi timing belt modifications



Around 1997, Land Rover dealers started to report that some 300Tdi engined Defenders, Discoveries and Range Rovers were suffering premature timing belt failure. The belt was rubbing against the flanged edge of the tensioner, getting worn away and eventually breaking long before the scheduled change interval. The cause was misalignment of the pulleys , tensioner and roller, due to a combination of an inadequately strong timing case, poorly designed injection pump bracket and incorrect assembly methods. Not all vehicles were affected, and no official recall program was ever put in place, but Land Rover issued a series of technical bulletins to dealers, changed the design of tensioner, idler and bottom pulley, and produced two modification kits for affected vehicles.




The first modification kit STC4095K, for earlier vehicles, included a new timing case, injection pump bracket and sundry other hardware. The second kit STC4096K was less comprehensive, comprising a new belt, later type tensioner, idler, lower pulley, bolts and studs. Dealers were instructed to paint a yellow square on the upper left end of the timing cover on vehicles which had been fitted with a modification kit. However, as not all vehicles were affected by the problem, not all were modified. This can lead to problems when trying to work out which components to order.




In theory, if your vehicle has a chassis number lower than VA117353 (Defender) or VA560897 (Discovery) it should have the early type tensioner and idler, with a flanged lip on the tensioner and no lip on the bottom pulley. However, if it has been modified, or if the chassis number is higher than those quoted above, it will need the later type tensioner and idler. The only way you can confirm for sure which type you need is to remove the timing cover and have a look. This isn’t quite as bad as it sounds since on a 300Tdi you don’t have to disturb the water pump to remove the cover, but you will need to remove the crankshaft vibration damper and belt pulley.




On removing the timing cover, if the edge of the belt is heavily shredded and the timing cover is full of something that looks like black candyfloss, then you have a problem. Land Rover advise that the modification kits should be fitted as follows:




Discovery to VA711273 (except VA542371-VA558898), Defender to VA101256, Range Rover Classic (all) require kit STC4095K.


Discovery VA542371-VA558898 and VA711274-WA748935, Defender VA101257-VA129096 require kit STC4096K.


Discovery from WA748936 and Defender from VA129097 should not require any modification.


In addition, when fitting kit STC4096K you will need to replace the front outer timing cover seal with part ERR7143, if your vehicle’s VIN number is in the following ranges:




Discovery VA548520-VA558898 and VA716897-WA748935, Defender VA107351-VA129096.

 
Put it in for a test now.
If it fails miserably then scrap the cow bag and start again.
At least you'll have some spares if you buy another one the same. :D
 
Put it in for a test now.
If it fails miserably then scrap the cow bag and start again.
At least you'll have some spares if you buy another one the same. :D

That's the problem. At the moment it's stuck up the drive with no crank damper on so I can't get it to MOT.

To get it running and get it tested I need to fix crankshaft and fit new damper. It makes sense normally to do the mod on the timing whilst it's all stripped before bodging crankshaft ... but that's starting to look expensive. So I'm thinking of just throwing a new belt on and doing the crankshaft bodge. That way I can get it tested and also give it some time to see if the crankshaft bodge holds and to see if the head gasket has gone.

Col
 
Well the timing is done and the damper pulley on and she went for her MOT yesterday.

... and passed !

The tester said it passed emissions 1st time and read really low. He said that if there was a problem with the head gasket then the emissions would have shown it ... so looks like that's good news too.

So she's back on the road.

I wish it was all good news ... before the damper pulley went it was singing like a canary and I thought that would be the damper pulley. However even with that now done it's singing worse than ever ... but I suppose that will just be tensioner so that's no big deal.

I'm chuffed she's passed.

Thanks for all the help

Col
 
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Cheers Dave

Cheers Steve ... I couldn't believe it passed sills ... he said that hole on the underside will need doing next year so like you say ... I've got 12 months to sort it.

Thanks for your help and loan of tools fella

Col
 
Well ... It's done 8 miles and that pulley has failed.

I took the serp belt off to check if it was still tight and it is loose.

Gutted

Something isn't right here. When I fitted the pulley I slid it so far onto the key then put in and tightened bolt. As bolt screwed in it pushed pulley on.

When I checked it today the pulley will slide backwards and forwards along the length of crankshaft with the front bolt still on tight. Only a couple of mm but it does.

So that front bolt is tightening up against the end of the crankshaft but not on the pulley?

Surely the pulley should push up against the belt pulley and then be proud of the end of the crankshaft?

So is this the wrong damper pulley or is that belt pulley that worn where it contacts the end of the damper pulley? It didn't look worn ... I presumed it's front is concave?

Col
 
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Oh bugger, I thought you had it cracked.

Sounds like you have spotted the fault, the pulley should indeed sit a bit proud or the thick washer on the bolt will need to be stepped to apply tension to the pulley face.

I can't see wear doing this, maybe a spacer or shim missing, I don't have an exploded diagram so can't tell but I didn't see a spacer in mine.

Why not try a thick washer? If you need a special cupped washer turning up, I could do so if you let me know the dimensions, inside bore, crank diameter, outer diameter and amount of step wanted. Bear in mind that this should not be needed though.

A diagram of the assembly is what's needed I think.
 
That's very kind of you Dave

I'm thinking that the damper pulley should sit in that slightly proud position so the serp belt lines up with the other pulleys unless that 2mm doesn't matter. Maybe that's why the belt was singing. So maybe any spacer needs to be between the damper and toothed pulley?

Col
 
you need to find out why as they shouldnt need spacers is crank sprocket okay o ring behind it in place

That's a problem James

No way would that toothed pulley come off ... I even broke a pulley kit trying to get it off so I left it on. So I have no idea if the O ring is behind it. I also don't know if the toothed pulley edge has worn a few mm.

I'll have another go at getting it off but if it still won't budge then all I can think of is a spacer?


Col
 
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I phoned the Land Ranger place that sold me the pulley this morning and they think that with the old pulley moving around as it was wearing it has worn the toothed belt pulley a couple of mm. I agree as I remember thinking what that 1 - 2mm silver stuff was where the toothed pulley met the crankshaft. If you look closely you can see this in the photos.

So the real fix is get that toothed pulley off ... but it was solid and wouldn't budge even with a puller kit.

Only other fix is a spacer which would have to be made to fit between the two pulleys.Dave could you make up a washer ... prob 3mm thick or is it easier to make the much thicker stepped spacer at the front? The damper pulley would then be a few mm out of line with other external pulleys.




Col
 
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I can do, i just need the outside daiameter, inside diameter and thickness you want.

I dont have a pulley here to measure.

The wear does sound possible, it has likely burred the edge into the crank which is one reason it wont shift.

if its not leaking oil then the o-ring should be ok, this wold not act as a spacer anyway as its compressed in place.

Let us know and i'll knock something up for you, the spacer is the easiest and best option as we know the front of the pulley is new and not worn.

Dave
 
I phoned the Land Ranger place that sold me the pulley this morning and they think that with the old pulley moving around as it was wearing it has worn the toothed belt pulley a couple of mm. I agree as I remember thinking what that 1 - 2mm silver stuff was where the toothed pulley met the crankshaft. If you look closely you can see this in the photos.

So the real fix is get that toothed pulley off ... but it was solid and wouldn't budge even with a puller kit.

Only other fix is a spacer which would have to be made to fit between the two pulleys.Dave could you make up a washer ... prob 3mm thick or is it easier to make the much thicker stepped spacer at the front? The damper pulley would then be a few mm out of line with other external pulleys.

Col


Hiya Col it's Dave. If the serpentine belt crankshaft pulley is not going onto the crankshaft far enough for it to feel solid, you need to establish what is stopping it.

I'm assuming that the timing case is on and fully home? If that is the case then I think we can forget about the timing belt crankshaft sprocket.

Working from memory now but I seem to recall that you install the pulley onto the crankshaft, then a large thick spacer/washer, then the large pulley bolt that holds everything together. The thick washer is the bit that actually pushes the pulley further onto the crankshaft and it's Woodruff key.

Do you have that thick washer on yours? It's quite heavy, about 1/4inch thick so quite noticeable?

Cheers
Dave
 
I can do, i just need the outside daiameter, inside diameter and thickness you want.

I dont have a pulley here to measure.

The wear does sound possible, it has likely burred the edge into the crank which is one reason it wont shift.

if its not leaking oil then the o-ring should be ok, this wold not act as a spacer anyway as its compressed in place.

Let us know and i'll knock something up for you, the spacer is the easiest and best option as we know the front of the pulley is new and not worn.

Dave

Thanks Dave

I'll get it all bits again to check for any damage to new key. I'll give that toothed pulley another try. I think your theory of it being burred into crank is correct.

If it defo won't come off this time I'll vernier the dimensions and let you know. Many thanks.

Col
 
Hiya Col it's Dave. If the serpentine belt crankshaft pulley is not going onto the crankshaft far enough for it to feel solid, you need to establish what is stopping it.

I'm assuming that the timing case is on and fully home? If that is the case then I think we can forget about the timing belt crankshaft sprocket.

Working from memory now but I seem to recall that you install the pulley onto the crankshaft, then a large thick spacer/washer, then the large pulley bolt that holds everything together. The thick washer is the bit that actually pushes the pulley further onto the crankshaft and it's Woodruff key.

Do you have that thick washer on yours? It's quite heavy, about 1/4inch thick so quite noticeable?

Cheers
Dave

Hi Dave

It's the other way around ... it goes TOO far. It goes all the way to the rear pulley but that leaves the front of the damper pulley PAST the front edge of the crankshaft ( @ 2mm ). I do have the large spacer/washer that goes in front of the bolt but it's just tightening on the end of the c/s and not the front of the damper pulley.

Hope you are well mate

Col
 
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