Modus Operandi for rescues ...

neilly · Dec 30, 2017

Dippypud said:
Would a spec lift count then ?

I have no idea? have not got one, so would not be towing with one. I would hazard a guess as it has wheels touching the road it would still need to be road legal though.

doriz said:
I have been in the rescue business for 3 decades,

Ask Doriz.....

Cheers

goonarmy · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
i appreciate all you say.
The harm was due to an unfit person trying to attempt a rescue he was not suited for. If people put themselves at risk, then that was their decision. No-one on here asked them to do so. You dont seem to appreciate that. We cannot be responsible for people making unwise decisions.

NO.
THE FALL COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ANY ONE THERE. And the damage happened to both vehicles. Your appreciation of the risk is not suffcient. This is a major concern. From start to finish we should have nothing to do with this.
Less speed more haste. And I'll leave it at that.

Iancorky · Dec 30, 2017

Dippypud said:
Would a spec lift count then ?

Doubt it - most recovery services use them at some time to lift motors on behalf of the Police. Plus the lack of driver means no control of the vehicle

goonarmy · Dec 30, 2017

Balbas said:
By one definition yes they are unpaid therefore they are amateurs.

But they train regularly, they develop and display skills according to a set syllabus and certainly my lot were regularly required to demonstrate certain parts of their skill set. So by that definition they conformed to a professional standard

Skills using the prescrbed equipment. None of which was present.

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

As an aside, although at times it doesnt seem like it, LZIR is not BB's and my baby. We were asked to administer what we can, but it is a LZ operation. Anyone can query an OP, ask pertinent questions and carry out checks. Some of the info can only be given out by PM by those considering attending (location and tel No), but nothing stops anyone of you verifying that the OP is genuine. Please do.

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

goonarmy said:
NO.
THE FALL COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ANY ONE THERE. And the damage happened to both vehicles. Your appreciation of the risk is not suffcient. This is a major concern. From start to finish we should have nothing to do with this.
Less speed more haste. And I'll leave it at that.

No one had any appreciation of the risk. that is par for course. That is why we rely on peeps at the scene. How could we have reduced the risk of a sprained ankle?

allan downes · Dec 30, 2017

Well theres all good points there. The bit i dont like is. . A the lies by the op in effect the terrain . Ive done off roading for years. My vehicle a 200 tdi. Quiafe diffs heavy duty shafts winch snorkel first aid kit shovels sleeping bags water all the relevant kit im a member of response 4x4. And on the night i never went down all the way but had to travel a bit further than i wanted to as again porky pies. Were told about reach. I had to use the whole of my winch rope. 2 tow straps 2 towrope and another tree strop. So it was not just a short winch pull and i ended up getting dtuck but im quite capable. But the weather. Dark i asked a very experienced friend to bring his h duty ground anchors to help .im not saying im expert experienced but no amateur either

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

allan downes said:
Well theres all good points there. The bit i dont like is. . A the lies by the op in effect the terrain . Ive done off roading for years. My vehicle a 200 tdi. Quiafe diffs heavy duty shafts winch snorkel first aid kit shovels sleeping bags water all the relevant kit im a member of response 4x4. And on the night i never went down all the way but had to travel a bit further than i wanted to as again porky pies. Were told about reach. I had to use the whole of my winch rope. 2 tow straps 2 towrope and another tree strop. So it was not just a short winch pull and i ended up getting dtuck but im quite capable. But the weather. Dark i asked a very experienced friend to bring his h duty ground anchors to help .im not saying im expert experienced but no amateur either

you attending was appreciated, but by definition, you must have been able to assess the risk better than anyone not there, and make your own decision as to the action to take, or not.

Hippo · Dec 30, 2017

allan downes said:
Well theres all good points there. The bit i dont like is. . A the lies by the op in effect the terrain . Ive done off roading for years. My vehicle a 200 tdi. Quiafe diffs heavy duty shafts winch snorkel first aid kit shovels sleeping bags water all the relevant kit im a member of response 4x4. And on the night i never went down all the way but had to travel a bit further than i wanted to as again porky pies. Were told about reach. I had to use the whole of my winch rope. 2 tow straps 2 towrope and another tree strop. So it was not just a short winch pull and i ended up getting dtuck but im quite capable. But the weather. Dark i asked a very experienced friend to bring his h duty ground anchors to help .im not saying im expert experienced but no amateur either

Well done for yer efforts. May I ask what was crv man doing up there? Lost, oft roading, looking for sheep or taking a short cut?

allan downes · Dec 30, 2017

Im not really sure why he was up that way , sort or track but he lives not to far away he ,was trying to get there off road but i cant think why lol

neilly · Dec 30, 2017

allan downes said:
Im not really sure why he was up that way , sort or track but he lives not to far away he ,was trying to get there off road but i cant think why lol

By chance was one end of the lane opposite / close to a local drinking house???

Cheers

private penguin · Dec 30, 2017

I suspect we shall never know whether the chap in wales was being economical with the truth on purpose, or just completely incapable of judging the situation. I suspect a bit of both.

@goonarmy almost seems to be suggesting that LZIR members should stop responding to requests for help simply because of one incident that went wrong.

I think what is important is that people responding to requests on LZIR are doing so of their own free will. The system can perhaps be improved to help improve their safety, but it is down to individual members whether or not they are willing to go out.

It is arguably a lot safer that a response takes place via this forum than over facebook - at least here there are a number of people knowing what is happening and keeping an eye out.

Dippypud · Dec 30, 2017

allan downes said:
Im not really sure why he was up that way , sort or track but he lives not to far away he ,was trying to get there off road but i cant think why lol

Prolly because he did it 20 years ago when the ground was not as soggy and the car was a bit more manly ....

allan downes · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
you attending was appreciated, but by definition, you must have been able to assess the risk better than anyone not there, and make your own decision as to the action to take, or not.

Yes well we all got the landies out and were ok at the end of it a bit tricky but on a mountain side at 11 in the night with it wet and raining i think we did ok. Lol

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

allan downes said:
Yes well we all got the landies out and were ok at the end of it a bit tricky but on a mountain side at 11 in the night with it wet and raining i think we did ok. Lol

Do you think it would have been better to abort, report the situation back to us and suggest a safer approach?

Iancorky · Dec 30, 2017

allan downes said:
Yes well we all got the landies out and were ok at the end of it a bit tricky but on a mountain side at 11 in the night with it wet and raining i think we did ok. Lol

You should nip back up and let his tyres down

blue beasty · Dec 30, 2017

The thing that worries me is although many good points have been made about risk assessment etc much of it would have made little or no difference given the extremely inaccurate info we were given.

There isn't really a defence against that other than responders confirming what they've been told each step of the way and relaying it back where advice sought or help asked for can change.

I will certainly be strongly advising very careful on foot recces in future and ongoing communication needs sorting as much as possible.

I'm a bit more conflicted about accepting requests from new members.

Most join LZ looking for help in one form or another and we don't question whether they'll stay before trying to help.

I do think we were taken for a ride yesterday and I have banned someone who needed recovery (a 'well known' member), lied about the situation and , as I found out later, was banned from driving but I'm reluctant to measure others against examples like that.

People are free to choose who they can and would like to assist and there is no pressure.

Getting no response to contact numbers is different and frustrating because we have no idea whether the text is ignored or the contact no longer valid.

allan downes · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
Do you think it would have been better to abort, report the situation back to us and suggest a safer approach?

Even though it went on a bit. But we were carefull even though we were all over it using the winch of the vehicles to take the work and just assisting in drive slightly. Not to spin the wheels to cause sliding but we got there and really did not want to leave the 90 up there all night. But i was equipped to tho. Thanks tho. It must be hard for you to. Sort it all your end. Like just going on info coming in. I just think it needs tightning a bit.

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

blue beasty said:
Getting no response to contact numbers is different and frustrating because we have no idea whether the text is ignored or the contact no longer valid.

It also means that we may call peeps further away, when someone maybe available "on the doorstep"

Dippypud · Dec 30, 2017

blue beasty said:
The thing that worries me is although many good points have been made about risk assessment etc much of it would have made little or no difference given the extremely inaccurate info we were given.

There isn't really a defence against that other than responders confirming what they've been told each step of the way and relaying it back where advice sought or help asked for can change.

I will certainly be strongly advising very careful on foot recces in future and ongoing communication needs sorting as much as possible.

I'm a bit more conflicted about accepting requests from new members.

Most join LZ looking for help in one form or another and we don't question whether they'll stay before trying to help.

I do think we were taken for a ride yesterday and I have banned someone who needed recovery (a 'well known' member), lied about the situation and , as I found out later, was banned from driving but I'm reluctant to measure others against examples like that.

People are free to choose who they can and would like to assist and there is no pressure.

Getting no response to contact numbers is different and frustrating because we have no idea whether the text is ignored or the contact no longer valid.

It's a tough call, as those who are on scene may well say 'well we're here now' .... but it is easy to forget how quickly the weather in England can change when you add some altitude to it ...

It must always be down to whoever is on scene as to the approach to the incident, every call out is different ...

Modus Operandi for rescues ...

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