P38A Limousin and back - no problems for the first time ever

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wammers said:
Hot start is helpful mainly on older high mile cars were the engine and injection system is past it's best. On later cars from 1999 the lift pump runs on cranking on early cars it only runs with glows and when engine is running. So getting static right helps later cars but does not always do it for early ones. If you look at the diagrams early cars can be modded to get lift pump on cranking for the price of a bit of wire a diode and a bit of soldering.
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tomcat59alan said:
I don't agree,the glows are a lot hotter than a hot engine.
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You are welcome to disagree. My Transit will start from cold with no glow plugs. The Glow plugs coming on are a side effect of the hot start mod, it's the lift pump running on cranking and the cold start fuel map that does the business, which is confirmed by Wammers statement on the subject
 
Datatek said:
You are welcome to disagree. My Transit will start from cold with no glow plugs. The Glow plugs coming on are a side effect of the hot start mod, it's the lift pump running on cranking and the cold start fuel map that does the business, which is confirmed by Wammers statement on the subject
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I cannot believe that a glow plug heated to a temperature of between 850-1100 degrees Centigrade depending on type and having a mist of diesel sprayed into the cylinder will not have an effect.
 
tomcat59alan said:
I cannot believe that a glow plug heated to a temperature of between 850-1100 degrees Centigrade depending on type and having a mist of diesel sprayed into the cylinder will not have an effect.
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It may well have an effect, but it's not necessary in a hot engine. The only difference between early and late engine starting is an additional diode in the fuse box that causes the lift pump to run on cranking without the glow plugs. On my project car with the diode in place and modulation over 80% it was nigh on impossible to start when hot, getting the modulation exact completely cured it, it starts on the button hot or cold. On early cars, simply fitting the extra diode will run the lift pump on cranking, then getting the modulation right will sort the hot start problem
 
Datatek said:
It may well have an effect, but it's not necessary in a hot engine. The only difference between early and late engine starting is an additional diode in the fuse box that causes the lift pump to run on cranking without the glow plugs. On my project car with the diode in place and modulation over 80% it was nigh on impossible to start when hot, getting the modulation exact completely cured it, it starts on the button hot or cold. On early cars, simply fitting the extra diode will run the lift pump on cranking, then getting the modulation right will sort the hot start problem
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I never said anywhere that they were necessary on a hot engine. The hot start kit in my garage was fitted to my engine until I replaced the timing chains, sprockets, guides and tensioners so removed as redundant.
 
Datatek said:
You are welcome to disagree. My Transit will start from cold with no glow plugs. The Glow plugs coming on are a side effect of the hot start mod, it's the lift pump running on cranking and the cold start fuel map that does the business, which is confirmed by Wammers statement on the subject
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Depends how borderline it is on starting in the first place. A little here and a little there all helps.
 
Grrrrrr said:
Depends how borderline it is on starting in the first place. A little here and a little there all helps.
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I'm sure you know that a diesel is a compression ignition engine, rapid compression heats the air and allows ignition. With a cold block not enough heat is generated in an indirect injection diesel for ignition, hence glow plugs. If the block is hot no glow plugs are needed which, in case you had not noticed, is why they do not come on normally with a hot engine. The fact that they come on with the hot start bodge is a side effect of fooling the EDC into thinking the engine is cold. It's running the pump on early cars and more importantly enriching the mixture and lowering the modulation that does the job.
 
Datatek said:
I'm sure you know that a diesel is a compression ignition engine, rapid compression heats the air and allows ignition. With a cold block not enough heat is generated in an indirect injection diesel for ignition, hence glow plugs. If the block is hot no glow plugs are needed which, in case you had not noticed, is why they do not come on normally with a hot engine. The fact that they come on with the hot start bodge is a side effect of fooling the EDC into thinking the engine is cold. It's running the pump on early cars and more importantly enriching the mixture and lowering the modulation that does the job.
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Having actually worked in the trade and rebuild many engine's petrol and diesel I am well aware of the workings of them and I don't need a lesson that sounds like it's come via Google.Anyway get back to the question I asked, before you came up with that load of flannel, WHERE on this thread have I ever said that glow plugs are necessary to start a hot engine? I'll give you the answer NEVER.so apologize for putting words in my mouth and we'll consider the matter closed
 
tomcat59alan said:
Having actually worked in the trade and rebuild many engine's petrol and diesel I am well aware of the workings of them and I don't need a lesson that sounds like it's come via Google.Anyway get back to the question I asked, before you came up with that load of flannel, WHERE on this thread have I ever said that glow plugs are necessary to start a hot engine? I'll give you the answer NEVER.so apologize for putting words in my mouth and we'll consider the matter closed
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Post#22 made that implication to me. Nothing from Google, all from testing on my project car. Too many lies on google.
 
Datatek said:
I'm sure you know that a diesel is a compression ignition engine, rapid compression heats the air and allows ignition. With a cold block not enough heat is generated in an indirect injection diesel for ignition, hence glow plugs. If the block is hot no glow plugs are needed which, in case you had not noticed, is why they do not come on normally with a hot engine. The fact that they come on with the hot start bodge is a side effect of fooling the EDC into thinking the engine is cold. It's running the pump on early cars and more importantly enriching the mixture and lowering the modulation that does the job.
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When my glows were suspect it struggled hot as well as cold. Changed them for Beru and it was a different car.

The chain stretch and maybe a tired starter motor and slightly less compression than new all add up to make it borderline to start when hot. A little extra fuel pressure helps which is why later models run the pump on cranking. The cold map is a bit more generous which also helps and the glows help a little bit too. My modulation is about 80% yet it fires almost as soon as the key is turned, hot or cold. I have my FIP timed as per RAVE.
 
Grrrrrr said:
When my glows were suspect it struggled hot as well as cold. Changed them for Beru and it was a different car.

The chain stretch and maybe a tired starter motor and slightly less compression than new all add up to make it borderline to start when hot. A little extra fuel pressure helps which is why later models run the pump on cranking. The cold map is a bit more generous which also helps and the glows help a little bit too. My modulation is about 80% yet it fires almost as soon as the key is turned, hot or cold. I have my FIP timed as per RAVE.
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I still say that if the block is warm enough for ignition to take place, then the glows are irrelevant but have it your own way. The glows do not operate normally when the engine is hot, if yours do you must have the hot start fitted. If your modulation is 80% it's way off, I presume it was done with a DTI, that's why you need the hot start. I have watched a garage time the FIP with DTI, they were not even close to spec, I could do no better to I have an alternative method of doing the timing. Getting the modulation right on my project car changed it from almost a non starter when hot to an instant starter hot or cold. I agree about fuel pressure helping hence the diode mod for early cars.
As examples the Volvo Penta diesel in my boat had no glow plugs but would start in any weather even on the handle if I was strong enough, likewise my smiley Transit, no glows, instant starter even after standing over the Christmas break with a foot of snow on it.
 
Datatek said:
I still say that if the block is warm enough for ignition to take place, then the glows are irrelevant but have it your own way. The glows do not operate normally when the engine is hot, if yours do you must have the hot start fitted. If your modulation is 80% it's way off, I presume it was done with a DTI, that's why you need the hot start. I have watched a garage time the FIP with DTI, they were not even close to spec, I could do no better to I have an alternative method of doing the timing. Getting the modulation right on my project car changed it from almost a non starter when hot to an instant starter hot or cold. I agree about fuel pressure helping hence the diode mod for early cars.
As examples the Volvo Penta diesel in my boat had no glow plugs but would start in any weather even on the handle if I was strong enough, likewise my smiley Transit, no glows, instant starter even after standing over the Christmas break with a foot of snow on it.
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Your still skirting the issue that your misinterpretation of my post#22 which you then went on to actually agree with me in your post #25 and the lack of an apology for twisting what I said shows that there is non so blind than those who will not see. A very blinkered attitude IMO for all your waffling about how diesels you've had or have still got doesn't change your lack of empathy.
While we're talking about glow plugs modern diesels.not only use the glow plugs for starting but also in certain circumstances after its called post glow and is used to reduce exhaust emissions.
 
tomcat59alan said:
Your still skirting the issue that your misinterpretation of my post#22 which you then went on to actually agree with me in your post #25 and the lack of an apology for twisting what I said shows that there is non so blind than those who will not see. A very blinkered attitude IMO for all your waffling about how diesels you've had or have still got doesn't change your lack of empathy.
While we're talking about glow plugs modern diesels.not only use the glow plugs for starting but also in certain circumstances after its called post glow and is used to reduce exhaust emissions.
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Well @Datatek , you've had 24 hours to reply with an apology,I guess your not man enough to admit your wrong, your impression of an ostrich is admirable.
 
tomcat59alan said:
Well @Datatek , you've had 24 hours to reply with an apology,I guess your not man enough to admit your wrong, your impression of an ostrich is admirable.
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tomcat59alan said:
Well @Datatek , you've had 24 hours to reply with an apology,I guess your not man enough to admit your wrong, your impression of an ostrich is admirable.
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As I said, your post #22 made that implication to me, if that was a misinterpretation I'm sorry but I note you are quick to ladle out abuse when it suits you. I'm happy to admit I know little about the latest generation diesels after the Tddi Transit. I do know a fair bit about the M51 from extensive testing.
 
Datatek said:
As I said, your post #22 made that implication to me, if that was a misinterpretation I'm sorry but I note you are quick to ladle out abuse when it suits you. I'm happy to admit I know little about the latest generation diesels after the Tddi Transit. I do know a fair bit about the M51 from extensive testing.
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Well I guess that's as close to an apology as I'm going to get but if you want to continue please explain the abuse I ladeled out to you or are you again trying to deflect from the original issue.
 
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