P38A Lack of earth.

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You're thinking it has lost sync?
If it's cranking, and a '96 GEMS, then it won't be sync... If a GEMS is out of sync then it won't even try to crank. Sync on a GEMS can also be verified by the orange 'check engine' light on the dash.

But then it's not actually stated if it's cranking or not... so if it's not even cranking/no CEL then could be a sync issue.. maybe the ECU does try to run the pump briefly, but then shuts it off when it doesn't get an immobiliser code.

Regarding pin 1/2 being back to front... it could just be the diagram in RAVE is back to front... but either way, across the relay coil you should have ignition switched 12V on one pin, and then the grounding on the other pin - which is switched by the engine ECU. It shouldn't matter which way the relay coil gets it's +ve/-ve as it is the current flow through the coil which energises the relay. If the relay pulls in properly for those couple of seconds, then that part is all OK.

If you unplug the engine ECU, and then ground pin 24 (the control line from the ECU to the relay) does it click in and the fuel pump run?
 
If it's cranking, and a '96 GEMS, then it won't be sync... If a GEMS is out of sync then it won't even try to crank. Sync on a GEMS can also be verified by the orange 'check engine' light on the dash.

But then it's not actually stated if it's cranking or not... so if it's not even cranking/no CEL then could be a sync issue.. maybe the ECU does try to run the pump briefly, but then shuts it off when it doesn't get an immobiliser code.

Regarding pin 1/2 being back to front... it could just be the diagram in RAVE is back to front... but either way, across the relay coil you should have ignition switched 12V on one pin, and then the grounding on the other pin - which is switched by the engine ECU. It shouldn't matter which way the relay coil gets it's +ve/-ve as it is the current flow through the coil which energises the relay. If the relay pulls in properly for those couple of seconds, then that part is all OK.

If you unplug the engine ECU, and then ground pin 24 (the control line from the ECU to the relay) does it click in and the fuel pump run?
It does crank, and has started see post#22 I will check pin 24 tomorrow cheers
 
Well,today I rechecked everything and the bastard won't start on gas but will on lpg. I changed over to petrol whilst its running and it cuts out. Anyone clued up on lpg /petrol systems? It's a Gems was 4.0 but now 4.6 and an Emmegas lpg system.:confused:
 
I thought they always started on petrol and were unable to start on gas. Sounds like you may have the triggers mixed up between the gas and petrol.
 
A lot of the LPG systems will allow you to start on LPG by pressing an holding the LPG changeover switch for 10s

If it will start/run on LPG, but not on petrol, then it still points to there being a problem with the fuel pump, or the control thereof.

The easiest thing to start with would be to bridge the fuel pump relay contacts and then try and start it. If that works, then fuel pump is OK, and it's on the control side to the pump.
Next thing would be to check pin 24 at the engine ECU actually clicks the fuel pump relay in and powers the pump to get fuel to the rail. If it does, then I guess it could be a fault in the petrol ECU itself, and it isn't driving the relay for some reason.
 
I thought they always started on petrol and were unable to start on gas. Sounds like you may have the triggers mixed up between the gas
A lot of the LPG systems will allow you to start on LPG by pressing an holding the LPG changeover switch for 10s

If it will start/run on LPG, but not on petrol, then it still points to there being a problem with the fuel pump, or the control thereof.

The easiest thing to start with would be to bridge the fuel pump relay contacts and then try and start it. If that works, then fuel pump is OK, and it's on the control side to the pump.
Next thing would be to check pin 24 at the engine ECU actually clicks the fuel pump relay in and powers the pump to get fuel to the rail. If it does, then I guess it could be a fault in the petrol ECU itself, and it isn't driving the relay for some reason.
I have bridged the pump and that's fine. When it is running on lpg I checked for -'ve feed at pin 1 on relay 12 and there is,isn't that the ground feed from pin24 on the ecu?
 
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All the LPG systems do is slave off the petrol ECU - they don't take over running of the engine. When running on gas, the LPG ECU shuts off the petrol injector feeds and emulates them to the petrol ECU (so it thinks it's still injecting petrol). The LPG system (if the more common sequential systems) then applies a fiddle factor to the measures petrol injection time, to account for the fact you need a bit more LPG for x quantity of petrol. The LPG ECU then fires the gas into the intake, where it's sucked into the cylinder, boom, and well, that's basically it.

So the fact that it runs on LPG shows that fundamentally the engine ECU is working to run/control the engine.

Which means that your issue is in one of 3 places (in my mind) 1) the LPG ECU, and what's happening is it's not reconnecting the petrol injectors to the petrol ECU when it's not running on gas. This to me is unlikely, as they generally use relays to changeover the signal from 'connected' to 'emulated' with the 'Normally Closed' position (IE relay not powered up) of being set to the petrol injectors being connected. So even if the LPG ECU loses power, then the petrol injectors will still have a connection and allow running on petrol. It's not impossible the LPG system is messing things up, but I'd say it's highly unlikely - especially on all 8 injectors.
#2) is that you have a fuel delivery problem. Either the pump/relay/ECU isn't doing something properly... If the pump is nearly new, and there is fuel at the rail (what fuel pressure do you get when it's running? Even if it's running on LPG, the fuel rail should be pressurised - so it's worth checking that with a gauge, and also seeing what it does when you hit the button to change back to petrol)
#3) your petrol ECU has a weird fault in it.

I somewhat doubt that the petrol ECU is the issue - if you say it's holding the fuel pump relay in when it's running on LPG (which it should do as it thinks it's still running on petrol) then any other problem with the ECU would show on LPG - if it was ignition, crank sensor etc related, as it's all still used when the vehicle is running on gas.

Fuel delivery (somewhere) is my bet. If the pump is running as it should then it's either not producing enough pressure, there's a blocked fuel filter, or maybe even the pressure regulator on the fuel rail isn't working properly...
Put a pressure gauge on the fuel rail and see what pressure you get when you start it up on LPG, and then see what happens when you switch to petrol.

If fuel pressure is in spec, then it points more to the injector side of things. but then again, 8 dead injectors isn't likely, or even enough dead injectors to stop it running badly would be likely - more extremely bad luck..
 
Contrary to and earlier post, on the GEMS engine the fuel pump runs to pressure the system when the ignition is turned on prior to start, then stops when pressure is achieved. I would think the problem is in the LPG ECU not switching from LPG to petrol. Therefore the petrol injectors are not being powered.
 
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