Injector seals HELP

1988smithy · Sep 30, 2018

jamesmartin said:
have you got an air line

No

jamesmartin · Sep 30, 2018

1988smithy said:
No

no problem , if bores are empty put it back together and try it

1988smithy · Sep 30, 2018

jamesmartin said:
no problem , if bores are empty put it back together and try it

Thanks for all this James.

I'm going to carry on tomorrow now, I'm covered in diesel/oil and 1 too many skinned knuckles.

To recap, injectors in and all fuel lines/electrics connected, ignition 2 to run fuel pump then turn clockwise by hand. If diesel runs out the bottom I'm ****ed if not happy days?

jamesmartin · Sep 30, 2018

1988smithy said:
Thanks for all this James.

I'm going to carry on tomorrow now, I'm covered in diesel/oil and 1 too many skinned knuckles.

To recap, injectors in and all fuel lines/electrics connected, ignition 2 to run fuel pump then turn clockwise by hand. If diesel runs out the bottom I'm ****ed if not happy days?

yes ,need to prove that before attempting to start it

1988smithy · Oct 1, 2018

@jamesmartin morning mate. Good job I'm on nights this week....

Injectors in and torqued down, ran pump and checked around injectors for leaks. No leaks top end. Pump stopped running after 15seconds. Turned engine by hand, couple of slight drips came from underneath, I think it's just disturbing oil. Engine can be turned quite easily now

jamesmartin · Oct 1, 2018

1988smithy said:
@jamesmartin morning mate. Good job I'm on nights this week....

Injectors in and torqued down, ran pump and checked around injectors for leaks. No leaks top end. Pump stopped running after 15seconds. Turned engine by hand, couple of slight drips came from underneath, I think it's just disturbing oil. Engine can be turned quite easily now

sounds so good so far you cant easily do much else besides put it back together and try running it

1988smithy · Oct 1, 2018

jamesmartin said:
sounds so good so far you cant easily do much else besides put it back together and try running it

Ok James, thanks again for being my sanity check and for advice.

I'll put top back together now, sump will have to wait til tomorrow I think. New gasket, sump plug and oil pump bolt needed. Phew

1988smithy · Oct 1, 2018

All put back together, sump on the lot.

Half a tank of fresh diesel. Ran purge. Could hear lots of gurgling and whooshing in under cam carrier. Injectors were checked for leaks prior to reassembly.

Cranked for a bit the n fired up. Ran lumpy for a few seconds, then normal then started knocking. Sounded horrendous. Revs rose quite high then either cut ou or I stalled it I'm not sure.

Lots of smoke from bay and exhaust.

This mess was ejected from exhaust side but I can't see where from

Turbo? No oil/diesel at air box or intake pipework.

Depressed

KISSMYAURA · Oct 1, 2018

FFS buddy, thats sheeite news, hopefully its just a turbo seal.
Poxy TD5 Injector seals and washers are a royal PIA.........
You'll get it sorted matey see my thread when I had similar grief its horrible, stressed and you just want to hear it purr, thinking wish i had never started this etc.

feel for ya matey been there.

My guess is its the copper washers they are rubbish and are same as washers hit and miss, you only have to press a bit too hard with fingers pushing them down onto the injector then they go waffy, etc.

1988smithy · Oct 1, 2018

KISSMYAURA said:
FFS buddy, thats sheeite news, hopefully its just a turbo seal.
Poxy TD5 Injector seals and washers are a royal PIA.........
You'll get it sorted matey see my thread when I had similar grief its horrible, stressed and you just want to hear it purr, thinking wish i had never started this etc.

feel for ya matey been there.

My guess is its the copper washers they are rubbish and are same as washers hit and miss, you only have to press a bit too hard with fingers pushing them down onto the injector then they go waffy, etc.

Thanks for support mate, feel out of my depth it has to be said. Another forum member spoke to me on the phone and has given me good advice where to look so I'll keep this updated.

I'm on nights this week havent slept today. Gotta get this poxy caravan home on the 13th. Gotta sort this poxy land rover.

First world problems I know but how am I going to pay for whatever's wrong plus the van plus the storage I'll need to pay for now cuz the landy might be in the way on the drive. My heads gone.

If it's turbo seals it's a new turbo isn't it?
If it's an injector ****ed that aint cheap. Would an injector need recoding after a refurb?
What if it is just the copper washers? What's saying I won't **** the next ones up?
Have I ****ed engine trying to run it? It was knocking it's tits off before it stopped.

Oh gawd

Ratae · Oct 1, 2018

Don't know if this has any relevance but the injectors on Mercedes Sprinters are well known for the copper washers that seal the injector face to the head to fail.
Usually first symptom is a strong smell of diesel & a 'chuffing' noise. A look under the bonnet will show smoke & diesel all over the place often with a lovely black gunge on top of the engine as diesel is blown past the seal & up the side of the injector.
Had this on mine. Leaking up past No4 injector which is the one at the back & of course the most awkward.
The failed seal showed distinct discolouration where the cylinder had been blowing by.
Removed, cleaned, replaced using genuine MB copper washer & new genuine clamp bolt. (Long thin stretch bolts, don't reuse)
Lasted about 3 weeks.
Removed, cleaned, checked all facing surfaces. Replaced using genuine MB copper washer & new genuine clamp bolt.
That lasted less than a week.
Trawling the net came up with a recommendation to use a Honda washer instead.
Worked perfectly & no further issues.
What I noticed was that the Honda one was a lot thicker & a lot softer than the MB ones which are very hard. It's since been suggested to me that annealing the MB one to soften it also works but I haven't tried it so don't know if that would work.
No idea if annealing the TD5 ones would make any difference?

KISSMYAURA · Oct 1, 2018

I have three TD5 Injectors green top that i changed unnecessarily, (see my project thread) still available if you need one, dont what silly money so thats one potential problem sorted.
yes they need to be coded, but you will find someone on here local who will do it for a beer im sure, 5 min job.
The copper washers crush when fitting so cant really be reused (aware you have had em in and out a few times)
They should slide on to injector stems no bother, did you have any were a bit stiff to slide on? might have got a bit distorted when sliding them on etc, only takes a knats cock out of true to cause a problem, very gentle cleaning of injector steams ( non abrasive ) before sliding them on etc
copper is a bit odd it will bend and crush 'once' then needs to be annealed (heated) to reverse bend etc. with washers its not worth it just cos you need then perfectly flat so unless you got a engineering flat press forget it, and fit new uns,
Again they a bit hit n miss, so go original.
engine should be fine they very tough etc, it ran ok for a bit yes? so that means its a fixable thing you wont have done any damage.
you will ave the cleanest sump and oil galleries ever after all this, so the positive is its hade a deep internal clean is all,

stay positive buddy !

Ratae · Oct 1, 2018

Just to avoid confusion, the recommendation for the MB is to use new genuine every time & not to attempt to reuse ones that have been fitted. The annealing was suggested to be done on new ones before fitting.

1988smithy · Oct 2, 2018

KISSMYAURA said:
did you have any were a bit stiff to slide on?

Not that I remember, if anything they were quite loose after winding crap off with old ones

Did say to the missus it'd be the cleanest 125k mile td5.

I'll have a look tomorrow if I can be bothered, whatever happens think the injectors will be coming out again so will use fresh set of genuine again.

Kinda hope it's the turbo

1988smithy · Oct 2, 2018

The light of a new day and 25hrs no sleep reveals

No oil here

No oil here

Or in any of this

So turbo can be ruled out...right?

Plenty of ****e blown out here that smells burnt and nasty mix of diesel and oil. Still can't figure out where from. Downpipe, side of block from halfway back and bellhousing is covered.

Inside cam cover smells of that horrible burnt oil but not overly of diesel. Dipstick level is normal.

I need to sleep today and have a rest from it.

Tomorrow I'm going to lift cam cover and see what's there then probably drain the fuel at the FPR and carefully pull the injectors, take glowplugs out and see what I've got in cylinders OR just send injectors for testing.

More i think of it, pulling 25litres of diesel from engine and sump on the first failed start on saturday, there must be an injector stuck wide open, bollocking fuel into the cylinder?

Way i see it they need to go back in with new washers and rings so might as well know they're ok or have been repaired.

Let me know thoughts, I might be a while getting back as I really need a day off from this lol

All your help is greatly appreciated lads/lasses

1988smithy · Oct 4, 2018

Drained fuel at head by disconnecting lines at FPR and pulled injectors again. Pulled no.5 out first, had a little bit of diesel come out the cylinder when I turned it by hand afterwards. I think it was just what was dropped by lifting that one first.

Engine turns sweet by hand and no diesel coming out of any cylinders.

I've ordered new washers and o rings (genuine) and new bolts for the injector clamps as well.

I'd convinced myself to take injector 5 for testing as that one was leaking the fuel topside of the rubber o ring in the first place. But on ignition 2. Surely when the pump is priming before cranking the injectors aren't doing anything yet? It's just providing fuel from HP side of pump to fuel gallery? So have I got any evidence at all the injector might be u/s?? I know this goes against what we spoke about @jamesmartin but I just can't see why the injectors would need to have anything to do with priming the gallery when they have no fuel feed to them. If I'm being thick I'm sorry!

Taking in all advice and trying to engage my small brain and limited knowledge, it's got to be down to me having them in and out a few times and the copper washers being fooked..?

This is a washer I fitted from no.5 on the right and no.4 on the left. 1 2 and 3 are the same as 4.

But I don't understand me having what I think was the start of runaway engine then having no diesel in sump this time. Could I get this with excess air being let thru **** washers?

Massively over thinking things, I think I just need to fit fresh washers and go for it but I'm that nervous about starting it now if there's something more to it I havent covered

jamesmartin · Oct 4, 2018

a very slight leak on the washers will give poor starting as gasses aerate the fuel, a larger leak will flood the cylinder

Ratae · Oct 4, 2018

Your last post makes it sound like you've been trying to reuse the old washers?
Is it possible on these engines for an old one to be stuck in place & you're trying to seal onto it so the new one can't cope?

1988smithy · Oct 4, 2018

Ratae said:
Your last post makes it sound like you've been trying to reuse the old washers?
Is it possible on these engines for an old one to be stuck in place & you're trying to seal onto it so the new one can't cope?

Exactly what im doing. It's stupid and I'm not testing anything else until I've got a fresh set in.

No original washers stuck in the seats though

1988smithy · Oct 7, 2018

Fixed with a new set of washers

Smoking like a trooper now from exhaust lol. Got to take it off really to clean it, it's too bad under load to drive and burn off

Injector seals HELP

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