How tough are Land Rovers?

> > |> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are.
> > |> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other
> > |> military vehicles like the Unimog.
> > |>
> > |
> > |
> > |They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a
> > |Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and
> > |spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land.
> > |A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do
> > |this.
> > |Compare apples with apples not oranges.
> >
> > American soldiers abuse their vehicles in ways that European
> > soldiers do not. The Unimog and the Hummer, being used as a
> > reference against what I would compare other vehicles. US trucks
> > will not take the operator abuse that the Unimog or Hummer take.
> > Can the LR take that level of abuse?
> >
> > Also we have seen Army Rangers go "dune buggying" in Afghanistan.
> > They like to pop the vehicle into the air over the top of low
> > hills. Sort of like Baja. US troops are very rough on vehicles.

The HMMWV is a good piece of machinery for its design purpose as are
the LR Defender and Series vehicles. Those purposes are very
different.

The width and size of the HMMWV make it ridiculous in American cities
and impossible in others. Many people in the U.S. military would
prefer a modern version of the M38/M151 type vehicle in addition to
the HMMWV.

In addition, the HMMWV has compromises that sooner or later will
catch up with it as a military vehicle. It has a civilian diesel as
opposed to a multifuel engine-it will eat JP5 with a little oil in it
but JP4, gasoline, heavy marine diesel fuels are out. And despite its
size and weight it has no armoring per se.

Land Rovers were the traditional choice of people who really needed
to get around in difficult places-as opposed to American Jeepers who
were more interested in finding out how difficult a place they could
get around in for recreational purposes. Because a diesel isn't
offered, the modern version of the "real jeep"-the Wrangler-isn't
fully taken seriously in many parts.

"R. David Steele" <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are.
> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other
> military vehicles like the Unimog.
>


They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a
Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and
spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land.
A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do
this.
Compare apples with apples not oranges.

Huw


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|> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are.
|> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other
|> military vehicles like the Unimog.
|>
|
|
|They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a
|Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and
|spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land.
|A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do
|this.
|Compare apples with apples not oranges.

American soldiers abuse their vehicles in ways that European
soldiers do not. The Unimog and the Hummer, being used as a
reference against what I would compare other vehicles. US trucks
will not take the operator abuse that the Unimog or Hummer take.
Can the LR take that level of abuse?

Also we have seen Army Rangers go "dune buggying" in Afghanistan.
They like to pop the vehicle into the air over the top of low
hills. Sort of like Baja. US troops are very rough on vehicles.

On Wednesday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected]/OMEGA "R. David Steele" wrote:

> |> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are.
> |> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other
> |> military vehicles like the Unimog.
> |>
> |
> |
> |They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a
> |Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and
> |spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land.
> |A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do
> |this.
> |Compare apples with apples not oranges.
>
> American soldiers abuse their vehicles in ways that European
> soldiers do not. The Unimog and the Hummer, being used as a
> reference against what I would compare other vehicles. US trucks
> will not take the operator abuse that the Unimog or Hummer take.
> Can the LR take that level of abuse?

I've been reading a livejournal by a US soldier in Iraq. "I can't
drive, I don't have a civilian licence, and they want me to drive the
Hummer."

> Also we have seen Army Rangers go "dune buggying" in Afghanistan.
> They like to pop the vehicle into the air over the top of low
> hills. Sort of like Baja. US troops are very rough on vehicles.

Wait until the enemy deploy AA artillery...

I've read articles in the magazines about British military training. We
apparently train our drivers not to take wild risks. It's stupid
breaking a vehicle you might need to stay alive. The off-road training
generally is maybe pretty mild, compared to stuff some of us might do
for fun. Maybe it's Ulster again -- the British Army has had to do a
lot of potentially-combat driving in the middle of civilian traffic.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

R. David Steele <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:

> US troops are very rough on vehicles.

And on the troops of other nations fighting alongside them.

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friendly advice in a flame-free environment.

"R. David Steele" <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> |> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are.
> |> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other
> |> military vehicles like the Unimog.
> |>
> |
> |
> |They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a
> |Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and
> |spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land.
> |A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do
> |this.
> |Compare apples with apples not oranges.
>
> American soldiers abuse their vehicles in ways that European
> soldiers do not. The Unimog and the Hummer, being used as a
> reference against what I would compare other vehicles. US trucks
> will not take the operator abuse that the Unimog or Hummer take.
> Can the LR take that level of abuse?
>
> Also we have seen Army Rangers go "dune buggying" in Afghanistan.
> They like to pop the vehicle into the air over the top of low
> hills. Sort of like Baja. US troops are very rough on vehicles.
>
The US Rangers use Land Rovers for their toughest missions:

http://www.specwarnet.com/vehicles/rsov.htm

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "R. David Steele" <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > |> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are.
> > |> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other
> > |> military vehicles like the Unimog.
> > |>
> > |
> > |
> > |They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a
> > |Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and
> > |spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land.
> > |A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do
> > |this.
> > |Compare apples with apples not oranges.
> >
> > American soldiers abuse their vehicles in ways that European
> > soldiers do not. The Unimog and the Hummer, being used as a
> > reference against what I would compare other vehicles. US trucks
> > will not take the operator abuse that the Unimog or Hummer take.
> > Can the LR take that level of abuse?
> >
> > Also we have seen Army Rangers go "dune buggying" in Afghanistan.
> > They like to pop the vehicle into the air over the top of low
> > hills. Sort of like Baja. US troops are very rough on vehicles.
> >
> The US Rangers use Land Rovers for their toughest missions:
>
> http://www.specwarnet.com/vehicles/rsov.htm

Do you think with the Wolf XD we are seeing the last of the military
Land Rovers? There seems to be a growing trend towards light armoured
wheeled vehicles which Land Rover does not produce directly, and a new
military
Land Rover wouyld be based on the new Defender which will probably be
based
on the Discovery III which seem overly complex for military
operations.

Would be a bit of blow after 50 plus years of miliary service.

tim

Tim Wise wrote:

> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
(snip)
>
> Do you think with the Wolf XD we are seeing the last of the military
> Land Rovers? There seems to be a growing trend towards light armoured
> wheeled vehicles which Land Rover does not produce directly,

Armed forces are never going to go to all light armoured vehicles - they may
be a larger proportion of utility vehicles, but both costs and operational
difficulties (maintenance, weight, bulk) argue against using them where not
needed.

> and a new military
> Land Rover wouyld be based on the new Defender which will probably be
> based
> on the Discovery III which seem overly complex for military
> operations.

Sounds very like the comments made twenty years ago with the introduction of
a coil sprung utility vehicle based on the Range Rover (which it was as far
as suspension and drive train were concerned). The armed forces round the
world seem to have coped with that.

>
> Would be a bit of blow after 50 plus years of miliary service.
>
> tim

JD

On 30 May 2004 19:28:30 -0700, [email protected] (Ted Azito)
wrote:

|> > |> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are.
|> > |> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other
|> > |> military vehicles like the Unimog.
|> > |>
|> > |
|> > |
|> > |They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a
|> > |Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and
|> > |spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land.
|> > |A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do
|> > |this.
|> > |Compare apples with apples not oranges.
|> >
|> > American soldiers abuse their vehicles in ways that European
|> > soldiers do not. The Unimog and the Hummer, being used as a
|> > reference against what I would compare other vehicles. US trucks
|> > will not take the operator abuse that the Unimog or Hummer take.
|> > Can the LR take that level of abuse?
|> >
|> > Also we have seen Army Rangers go "dune buggying" in Afghanistan.
|> > They like to pop the vehicle into the air over the top of low
|> > hills. Sort of like Baja. US troops are very rough on vehicles.
|
| The HMMWV is a good piece of machinery for its design purpose as are
|the LR Defender and Series vehicles. Those purposes are very
|different.
|
| The width and size of the HMMWV make it ridiculous in American cities
|and impossible in others. Many people in the U.S. military would
|prefer a modern version of the M38/M151 type vehicle in addition to
|the HMMWV.
|
| In addition, the HMMWV has compromises that sooner or later will
|catch up with it as a military vehicle. It has a civilian diesel as
|opposed to a multifuel engine-it will eat JP5 with a little oil in it
|but JP4, gasoline, heavy marine diesel fuels are out. And despite its
|size and weight it has no armoring per se.
|
| Land Rovers were the traditional choice of people who really needed
|to get around in difficult places-as opposed to American Jeepers who
|were more interested in finding out how difficult a place they could
|get around in for recreational purposes. Because a diesel isn't
|offered, the modern version of the "real jeep"-the Wrangler-isn't
|fully taken seriously in many parts.

The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV
has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal.

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:08:38 GMT, R. David Steele
<[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:

>The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV
>has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal.

Perhaps you should train them not to be? Rather than looking for an
idiot-proof vehicle, do something about the idiots.

--
QrizB

"On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

On Monday, in article <[email protected]>
[email protected] "QrizB" wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:08:38 GMT, R. David Steele
> <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:
>
> >The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV
> >has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal.
>
> Perhaps you should train them not to be? Rather than looking for an
> idiot-proof vehicle, do something about the idiots.

I've been made aware of non-drivers (there are some in the US, in the
big cities) being in the US Army and being expected to drive a Hummer.

And not the emergency get us the hell out of here situations...

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

speaking as a former one of the "idiots"-- I'll inform you that a soldier's
job isn't exactly to play nice and gentle.


"QrizB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 02:08:38 GMT, R. David Steele
> <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:
>
> >The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV
> >has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal.
>
> Perhaps you should train them not to be? Rather than looking for an
> idiot-proof vehicle, do something about the idiots.
>
> --
> QrizB
>
> "On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:19:55 GMT, "burntkat IS AT sc.rr.com"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>speaking as a former one of the "idiots"-- I'll inform you that a soldier's
>job isn't exactly to play nice and gentle.

I'm not going there.

--
QrizB

"On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

On or around Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:19:55 GMT, "burntkat IS AT sc.rr.com"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>speaking as a former one of the "idiots"-- I'll inform you that a soldier's
>job isn't exactly to play nice and gentle.
>

true, however breaking your transport is apt to be a bad move, and making
the transport unbreakable is not the best solution to the problem.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"There is plenty of time to win this game, and to thrash the Spaniards
too" Sir Francis Drake (1540? - 1596) Attr. saying when the Armarda was
sighted, 20th July 1588

JD <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Tim Wise wrote:
>
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> (snip)
> >
> > Do you think with the Wolf XD we are seeing the last of the military
> > Land Rovers? There seems to be a growing trend towards light armoured
> > wheeled vehicles which Land Rover does not produce directly,
>
> Armed forces are never going to go to all light armoured vehicles - they may
> be a larger proportion of utility vehicles, but both costs and operational
> difficulties (maintenance, weight, bulk) argue against using them where not
> needed.
>
> > and a new military
> > Land Rover wouyld be based on the new Defender which will probably be
> > based
> > on the Discovery III which seem overly complex for military
> > operations.
>
> Sounds very like the comments made twenty years ago with the introduction of
> a coil sprung utility vehicle based on the Range Rover (which it was as far
> as suspension and drive train were concerned). The armed forces round the
> world seem to have coped with that.
>
> >
> > Would be a bit of blow after 50 plus years of miliary service.
> >
> > tim
>
> JD

This sounds like the basis for the case that Land Rovers could continue
in military service. Yes or No?

If so what are we likely to see? The current Defender with an improved TD5
and modified to meet modern safety requirements ie. airbags, roll over etc
or something based on the DIII?

Tim

Tim Wise wrote:

> JD <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Tim Wise wrote:
>>
>> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:<[email protected]>...
>> (snip)
>> >
>> > Do you think with the Wolf XD we are seeing the last of the military
>> > Land Rovers? There seems to be a growing trend towards light armoured
>> > wheeled vehicles which Land Rover does not produce directly,
>>
>> Armed forces are never going to go to all light armoured vehicles - they
>> may be a larger proportion of utility vehicles, but both costs and
>> operational difficulties (maintenance, weight, bulk) argue against using
>> them where not needed.
>>
>> > and a new military
>> > Land Rover wouyld be based on the new Defender which will probably be
>> > based
>> > on the Discovery III which seem overly complex for military
>> > operations.
>>
>> Sounds very like the comments made twenty years ago with the introduction
>> of a coil sprung utility vehicle based on the Range Rover (which it was
>> as far
>> as suspension and drive train were concerned). The armed forces round
>> the world seem to have coped with that.
>>
>> >
>> > Would be a bit of blow after 50 plus years of miliary service.
>> >
>> > tim
>>
>> JD
>
> This sounds like the basis for the case that Land Rovers could continue
> in military service. Yes or No?
>
> If so what are we likely to see? The current Defender with an improved TD5
> and modified to meet modern safety requirements ie. airbags, roll over etc
> or something based on the DIII?
>
> Tim
In my view, the answer is yes.
What we would like to see?
Would like: a little wider and with more room for and aft. Maintain
commonality with previous Defenders as far as possible. Very important to
maintain flat glass for easy replacement and near vertical windows (reduces
glasshouse effect more than just about any other vehicle sold today). Less
plastic, or at any rate plastic that stands up to sunshine.

Expect to see: A completely new design with a common platform with the
Disco (not necessarily the D3 - might introduce a new platform for its
successor). New design will be optimised for modern production methods, but
will not do away with meccano type construction entirely, so as to allow
multiple body types. Will meet all current and foreseen safety and
environmental requirements, and this will probably include a rounded front,
although it may not look very rounded. Will have a lot of parts, possibly
including engines and drive train components common with other Ford
vehicles. It will still be a serious utility vehicle with capabilities at
least equal to the current Defender, despite being designed with an eye to
the SUV market.
JD

well, FYI-- anything can be broken, and we had no major problems whatsoever
with them in Gulf1.


"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:19:55 GMT, "burntkat IS AT sc.rr.com"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >speaking as a former one of the "idiots"-- I'll inform you that a
soldier's
> >job isn't exactly to play nice and gentle.
> >
>
> true, however breaking your transport is apt to be a bad move, and making
> the transport unbreakable is not the best solution to the problem.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "There is plenty of time to win this game, and to thrash the Spaniards
> too" Sir Francis Drake (1540? - 1596) Attr. saying when the Armarda was
> sighted, 20th July 1588

probably wise.


"QrizB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:19:55 GMT, "burntkat IS AT sc.rr.com"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >speaking as a former one of the "idiots"-- I'll inform you that a
soldier's
> >job isn't exactly to play nice and gentle.
>
> I'm not going there.
>
> --
> QrizB
>
> "On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

|> >The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV
|> >has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal.
|>
|> Perhaps you should train them not to be? Rather than looking for an
|> idiot-proof vehicle, do something about the idiots.
|
|I've been made aware of non-drivers (there are some in the US, in the
|big cities) being in the US Army and being expected to drive a Hummer.
|
|And not the emergency get us the hell out of here situations...

The US is not a nation of farm boys these days. Yet we expect
soldiers and Marines to have certain life skills. Driving, and
auto maintenance, are common task skills that all are expected to
have. Also there are too many who, being young, just like to
push the hell out of a vehicle.

Thus can the LR Defender take the same level of abuse that the
Hummer does?

"R. David Steele" <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> |> >The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV
> |> >has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal.
> |>
> |> Perhaps you should train them not to be? Rather than looking for an
> |> idiot-proof vehicle, do something about the idiots.
> |
> |I've been made aware of non-drivers (there are some in the US, in the
> |big cities) being in the US Army and being expected to drive a Hummer.
> |
> |And not the emergency get us the hell out of here situations...
>
> The US is not a nation of farm boys these days. Yet we expect
> soldiers and Marines to have certain life skills. Driving, and
> auto maintenance, are common task skills that all are expected to
> have. Also there are too many who, being young, just like to
> push the hell out of a vehicle.
>
> Thus can the LR Defender take the same level of abuse that the
> Hummer does?
>
>
I can't imagine British squaddies being any kinder to their vehicles than
their American counterparts are. Land Rovers have been taking this abuse for
over 50 years now - maybe when Hummers have been in continuous service for
50 years with hundreds of armys around the world you can come back to this
discussion and tell us whether the hummer can take the same level of abuse
that the Land Rover has already proved it can.