Freelander 1 Freelander EV

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I have often thought about how I would convert my FL1. I did originally think about the leaf motor into the gearbox as has been previously talked about. Should have more than enough power as the leaf motors can produce over 300hp if they are supplied with enough juice.

I have had an idea recently while working on an electric MG F project using an Outlander PHEV rear differential. The Outlander PHEV has motors built into the differentials. Two in the front(one acting as a generator to recharge) and one in the back. These motors are around 60kw each so easily enough for a Freelander. You could swap out the front and rear differentials for these. It would eliminate efficiency losses in the drive train and there would be no more VCU to worry about.
If there was enough space it would be a reasonably simple case of fabricating some mount adaptors and getting some new drive shafts made up. Traction control and ABS in the early FL1 at least would work the same. Should leave plenty of space for an inverter and batteries.

CAN messages can be spoofed by an Arduino if necessary for the later models.
 
Wonk said:
I have often thought about how I would convert my FL1. I did originally think about the leaf motor into the gearbox as has been previously talked about. Should have more than enough power as the leaf motors can produce over 300hp if they are supplied with enough juice.

I have had an idea recently while working on an electric MG F project using an Outlander PHEV rear differential. The Outlander PHEV has motors built into the differentials. Two in the front(one acting as a generator to recharge) and one in the back. These motors are around 60kw each so easily enough for a Freelander. You could swap out the front and rear differentials for these. It would eliminate efficiency losses in the drive train and there would be no more VCU to worry about.
If there was enough space it would be a reasonably simple case of fabricating some mount adaptors and getting some new drive shafts made up. Traction control and ABS in the early FL1 at least would work the same. Should leave plenty of space for an inverter and batteries.

CAN messages can be spoofed by an Arduino if necessary for the later models.
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What sort of size are they? The Freelander rear Diff is pretty small but without a drive shaft to worry about I guess it could be done.
 
Alibro said:
What sort of size are they? The Freelander rear Diff is pretty small but without a drive shaft to worry about I guess it could be done.
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As it happens I have a rear diff for both of these vehicles kicking around. I'll do a comparison photo this weekend. It looks like the differential itself on the Outlander is a bit smaller. But it then has a motor strapped to it which bulks it out considerably.
 
For simplicity the Leaf motor would probably be the way to go but your way would give the option of RWD only, FWD only or 4WD.
How cool would that be? :D

On a different note I checked the CAN messages again tonight and found the following.

153 - ABS
1F0 - Wheel Speeds................ Confirmed
1F8 - 4WD stuff
316 - RPM is in here................ Confirmed
329 - Throttle position is byte 5.................... Confirmed.
545 - Main items to send to the dash
613 / 615 - Items from the dash like ambient temperature, fuel level, AC request.
 
Alibro said:
I hope to confirm some of the CAN data listed above today and maybe we can try disconnecting some things to see what happens but I need to be careful as the car is still SWMBO's daily.
I suspect as you say Nodge that the ABS will work fine as stand alone.
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I've been watching some videos by Zero EV, there's doing an MX5 at the moment, but they do some interesting stuff, and give a lot of technical details too, so well worth a look. ;)
 
Nodge68 said:
I've been watching some videos by Zero EV, there's doing an MX5 at the moment, but they do some interesting stuff, and give a lot of technical details too, so well worth a look. ;)
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I've been watching them too. Excellent stuff like you say but very much money is no object. The Blackhursts videos are more relevant to us as the guy is using a Leaf motor and battery.
I'll be posting part three of the can hacking video series in half an hour or so.
I know, you can't wait that long, well you'll just have to. :p
I'm showing the CAN changing for throttle position, RPM and wheel speed although bad camera work combined with trying not to crash means the wheel speed is not well captured but can just be made out.
 
Alibro said:
For simplicity the Leaf motor would probably be the way to go but your way would give the option of RWD only, FWD only or 4WD.
Click to expand...

The Leaf motor grafted on to the standard running gear is the way to go for simplicity. There's likely to more transmission losses though the gearbox, but probably not that much, maybe 3-5% which is negotiable. I don't consider the VCU an issue, as it's very reliable when the tyres are maintained correctly.

Alibro said:
On a different note I checked the CAN messages again tonight and found the following.

153 - ABS
1F0 - Wheel Speeds................ Confirmed
1F8 - 4WD stuff
316 - RPM is in here................ Confirmed
329 - Throttle position is byte 5.................... Confirmed.
545 - Main items to send to the dash
613 / 615 - Items from the dash like ambient temperature, fuel level, AC request.
Click to expand...
Very interesting Ali. Now I'm wondering how much of those are actually used by the engine ECU, and if the engine ECU isn't there, does stuff like the ABS still function and and send speed data to the Ipack?

I'm just curious as to how little of the CAN data needs "spoofing" , just for ease of programming really.

I'll watch the video later. ;)
 
We are actively looking for a replacement for the Freelander and hope to have one very soon. When this happens the Freelander becomes my toy to play with so I will be able to cut and join wires, watch to see what warning lights appear and work to make them go out. I would not be popular if I cocked up SWMBO's daily before it is replaced. :eek:
 
Alibro said:
We are actively looking for a replacement for the Freelander and hope to have one very soon. When this happens the Freelander becomes my toy to play with so I will be able to cut and join wires, watch to see what warning lights appear and work to make them go out. I would not be popular if I cocked up SWMBO's daily before it is replaced. :eek:
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That sounds like a plan Ali.

I'm currently considering buying a Freelander Sport which is local and black, with 150K on the clock. I've been unable to contact the seller so far, but I'm reluctant to click the buy it now button, without looking at it first. Although it's actually not that expensive.
 
After seeing the two cars we looked at yesterday I wouldn't buy any car without seeing it first unless it was for next to nothing.
The first one was much rougher than the photos showed and inside was plastered with upholstery cleaner not to mention the 67k miles were highly dubious just by the general wear and tear. Believe it or not but the NI MOT system does not show past MOT history on cars so we can't go through past MOT's to check mileage. :eek:
The second was nicer but I briefly noticed a power steering fault on the dash immediately after starting it, also it was a Titanium but the only extra I could see that indicated Titanium were leather seats. It didn't even have parking sensors which I thought were standard on a Titanium.
Hopefully going to see another this evening.

BTW John did you see my reply to your Youtube comment. For some reason your comment is showing as published in my Youtube but I can't see it under the video.
 
Alibro said:
After seeing the two cars we looked at yesterday I wouldn't buy any car without seeing it first unless it was for next to nothing.
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It's a 53 plate Sport for £750, so not too expensive, but it does look pretty tatty, has no MOT and doesn't drive. :eek: So really the body and interior need to be useable, or it's not really worth my time.
Alibro said:
The first one was much rougher than the photos showed and inside was plastered with upholstery cleaner not to mention the 67k miles were highly dubious just by the general wear and tear. Believe it or not but the NI MOT system does not show past MOT history on cars so we can't go through past MOT's to check mileage. :eek:
The second was nicer but I briefly noticed a power steering fault on the dash immediately after starting it, also it was a Titanium but the only extra I could see that indicated Titanium were leather seats. It didn't even have parking sensors which I thought were standard on a Titanium.
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I hate it when people try flogging junk, or try to pretend that a lower spec is a higher one, simply because it has leather seats. I've seen loads of Freelanders which claim to be SEs or HSEs, only to discover that it's a lower model with leather seats added.:mad:

Alibro said:
BTW John did you see my reply to your Youtube comment. For some reason your comment is showing as published in my Youtube but I can't see it under the video
Click to expand...
I got the notification that you commented on my comment, but my comment didn't come up in the comments counter. :confused:
 
Nodge68 said:
The 50-70 time is pants on any FL1 anyway. That's a 3rd gear acceleration range on a 1.8K series, which has just 116ftlb of torque. The Leaf motor has almost twice as much torque, so I can't imagine the Leaf motor FL1 being slower than the 1.8K powered FL1.
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Fair enough. I don't know the gear ratios, but I guess maybe 20 MPH at redline in 1st? Maybe 15 MPH at 3000? I don't know where peak torque is on that engine, so I'm guessing in the dark, but if 3rd gear is about 2.75 - 3 times taller than 1st, then will you not need 2.75 - 3 times the torque from your electric motor to get the same sort of climbing and hill starting ability? That would suggest having to put it in 2nd, rather than 3rd to get the same sort of torque at the wheels, if the leaf motor has twice as much torque? I guess, if you weren't going to have to do any nasty hill starts, you could put it in 3rd when it was stationary and then if you were going off-roading you could put it in 2nd when stationary?
 
Avocet1 said:
Fair enough. I don't know the gear ratios, but I guess maybe 20 MPH at redline in 1st? Maybe 15 MPH at 3000? I don't know where peak torque is on that engine, so I'm guessing in the dark, but if 3rd gear is about 2.75 - 3 times taller than 1st, then will you not need 2.75 - 3 times the torque from your electric motor to get the same sort of climbing and hill starting ability? That would suggest having to put it in 2nd, rather than 3rd to get the same sort of torque at the wheels, if the leaf motor has twice as much torque? I guess, if you weren't going to have to do any nasty hill starts, you could put it in 3rd when it was stationary and then if you were going off-roading you could put it in 2nd when stationary?
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My understanding of these conversions is 3rd is fine for normal driving and leisurely starts and 2nd for quicker getaways.
 
Nodge68 said:
It's a 53 plate Sport for £750, so not too expensive, but it does look pretty tatty, has no MOT and doesn't drive. :eek: So really the body and interior need to be useable, or it's not really worth my time.

I hate it when people try flogging junk, or try to pretend that a lower spec is a higher one, simply because it has leather seats. I've seen loads of Freelanders which claim to be SEs or HSEs, only to discover that it's a lower model with leather seats added.:mad:


I got the notification that you commented on my comment, but my comment didn't come up in the comments counter. :confused:
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Sorry Nodge but that is way too dear, I bought a fairly clean, driving K series a few years ago for £250. To pay £750 for a non runner is bonkers. :eek:

On more positive note, we drove 60 miles plus one over the border into the Republic tonight to see a Kuga for SWMBO and brought it home so the Freelander is now officially my new toy. :D
This car was sold privately so no stupid garbage plastered over the interior trim but it's Sooo much cleaner than the others we saw. It also has glass roof, heated leccy seats, touch screen radio, reversing camera plus all normal Titanium extras. The previous owners were really nice folk owned it for 7 years and serviced it every year for MOT. Hopefully it's a goodun.

So no more excuses for me. :oops:
 
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It's probably worth looking at that BMW battery group buy on openinverter. You won't find batteries that cheap very often.
 
Wonk said:
It's probably worth looking at that BMW battery group buy on openinverter. You won't find batteries that cheap very often.
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Good find Wonk. I hadn't spotted that but put myself down for 40kWh
I was going to wait until the car had the electrics installed before buying a battery but at that price it would be stupid not too. I recently acquired (ahem) 60 x 7Ah 12V lead acid batteries that I was planning to use for testing but this is too good an opportunity to miss.
 
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Alibro said:
Sorry Nodge but that is way too dear, I bought a fairly clean, driving K series a few years ago for £250. To pay £750 for a non runner is bonkers
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For Cornwall, it's a good price. A written off Sport will costs over £500 down here.:eek:

Although I'm keen on doing a clutch change on it, or any car, which is why I prefer automatics.;)

Alibro said:
On more positive note, we drove 60 miles plus one over the border into the Republic tonight to see a Kuga for SWMBO and brought it home so the Freelander is now officially my new toy. :D
This car was sold privately so no stupid garbage plastered over the interior trim but it's Sooo much cleaner than the others we saw. It also has glass roof, heated leccy seats, touch screen radio, reversing camera plus all normal Titanium extras. The previous owners were really nice folk owned it for 7 years and serviced it every year for MOT. Hopefully it's a goodun.
Click to expand...

Sounds much better Ali. Is it difficult to buy a car from the Republic? I.e. does it need to be tested or have its ID checked before it's registered? Sorry off topic I know, but I'm curious. :)

Alibro said:
so the Freelander is now officially my new toy.
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Let the fun begin.

So first job is to disconnect the CAN connections (no need to cut the wires, just remove the connectors from the plug ;)) at the EDC, and see what other modules fail to work, and what lights come up on the dash. :)
 
Nodge68 said:
For Cornwall, it's a good price. A written off Sport will costs over £500 down here.:eek:

Although I'm keen on doing a clutch change on it, or any car, which is why I prefer automatics.;)
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Done it twice now on Freelanders, once on a K series and once on a TD4. TBH I enjoyed it but spent the entire weekend doing it.
Nodge68 said:
Sounds much better Ali. Is it difficult to buy a car from the Republic? I.e. does it need to be tested or have its ID checked before it's registered? Sorry off topic I know, but I'm curious. :)
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It was registered to his parents property in the North so no issues. I believe it's simple enough to import a car with just some paper work and an MOT but have never done it
Nodge68 said:
Let the fun begin.

So first job is to disconnect the CAN connections (no need to cut the wires, just remove the connectors from the plug ;)) at the EDC, and see what other modules fail to work, and what lights come up on the dash. :)
Click to expand...
I was thinking of cutting a CAN wire, extending it into the car and putting a plug and socket on it so I can connect and disconnect as I please but will see what happens with just disconnecting it.

Look what I spotted this morning.
https://www.donedeal.co.uk/cars-for-sale/leaf/24904354
Probably sold as it's been up for 44 days but they're out there.
 
Alibro said:
Done it twice now on Freelanders, once on a K series and once on a TD4.
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I'm on 5 or 6 times I think, but I'm not keen on it now as my wrists will hurt for months after doing a job like that.:(

Alibro said:
It was registered to his parents property in the North so no issues.
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That's good.
Alibro said:
I believe it's simple enough to import a car with just some paper work and an MOT but have never done it
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It's probably easier than it sounds. ;)

Alibro said:
I was thinking of cutting a CAN wire, extending it into the car and putting a plug and socket on it so I can connect and disconnect as I please but will see what happens with just disconnecting it.
Click to expand...
That's a good idea. Maybe use some CAT5 as it's a twisted data cable.:)

Alibro said:
Look what I spotted this morning.
https://www.donedeal.co.uk/cars-for-sale/leaf/24904354
Probably sold as it's been up for 44 days but they're out there.
Click to expand...
That's a good price.

I must admit I'm tempted to replace our current Mazda CX5 with something like that, when the lease is up next spring. We're considering buying second hand, rather than spending money on a new lease vehicle every 3 years. Leasing seems a nice idea, and there's no worries about repairs and maintenance, but it's actually a very expensive way to have a vehicle, which we never actually own.:eek:
 
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