Freelander 1.8 K series hgf - more data

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richardk6cr said:
View attachment 93885 I have replaced a head gasket for a freelander 1 k series petrol last year - and since then the car has run very well indeed. The freelander had done 50,000 miles and then failed. I am not a skilled engineer so the HGF repair took me over 8 weeks - working a little bit each evening! . That said, I also had the injectors sent off and serviced and I spent some time cleaning the piston tops and making sure the head was immaculate. I also serviced the starter motor and alternator at the same time. I followed the advice from the Haines manual to the letter and also watched a video posted on u-tube. I had to make my own tools to lock the main crankshaft and over head cams - but I eventually brought the latter tool for 8 pounds. The main crankshaft locking tool used the starter motor mountings to interface a cog on the flywheel. I have included a picture of this and I was quite proud to have made it (being an academic not a hands on mechanic) If anyone is due to attempt a HGF repair on a K series I am more than happy to loan the locking tools and give some simple advice (like how to remove the fuel inlet from the fuel rail which, is meant to be easy, but I found difficult and how to lock "solid" the cam sprockets to allow removal of their locking nuts and how to feed in the new timing belt using wooded wedges to ensure it was tight and correct.). Other points were to take many pictures and label up all electrical connections unless you are familiar with the engine. I have a complete set of pictures showing the timing marks of the cam sprockets, crankshaft timing and other bits I thought important at the time. If you are an experienced mechanic then these would be common sense but for an amateur they would be very useful. Overall I enjoyed doing the HGF repair - even though it took me out of my comfort zone. I learnt a lot about fuel injection, engine management systems and the many transducers that feed into the system. I used a good quality new gasket set - don't buy cheap here including new steel bolts. Please contact me if you want any pictures and if you want to borrow the hand made tools.

Kind Regards
Richard
[email protected]
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Nice one Richard, I've done it twice now so slightly better than a novice but not by much. The best source of advice on the K series are the MG Rover forums, especially the MGF and TF forums as being mid engined they have more trouble than most.
 
image.jpeg
[GALLERY=]View attachment 95952[/GALLERY] View attachment 95952 I think the evidence is clear, the K series has an issue with HGF. I have done the HG on our MG TF, and was dreading doing a mid engined car, but to be fair the access was far better than say a mini or some of the old V 8 engined cars I worked on in years past.
There is a kit on one of the MG websites that includes the uprated oil rail and golts which a higher tensile strength. only wish I had found the kit before I did ours. its about £200.
 
Having read the MG forums a lot, they think its better in the freelander citing the better airflow and improvements Landrover did. The MG being mid engine gets seriously hot in the summer and being stuck in traffic if the engine fan is stuck can spell disaster very quickly.
personally there are several things that added together make it susceptible to HGF.
the liner thickness
image.jpeg
 
You can see in the picture there is very little land for the gasket to seal against. the cylinders are so close together water flow around the liners cannot be the greatest.
The liner heights are critical. the aliminium warms up quicker and expands faster than the steel liner. now I have not done the calcs but anything less than 2 thou I am sure on heat up would leave the liner to gasket pressure almost no existant. there are pictures of engines where the liners have been moving up and down as the engine has been running leaving the head indented.
It is said on the forums that early engines the liners were flush or even under flush, no wonder they failed so quick.
apparently it was landrover that changed it to 4 thou plus which makes much more sense.
The MG in the pics has done 57k and its on its third HG.
When I stripped it liners were all proud by about 4 thou, head was in very good nick. So I just cleaned it up and put it back together
 
Both times I changed HG I found the liners were flush with the block. The first was a 99 MGF but the engine had been replaced around 2007 by a main MG dealer and the second was my 04 Freelander. I used and MLS gasket first time and Elastomer on the Freelander, so far both still going fine. :)
 
Alibro said:
Both times I changed HG I found the liners were flush with the block. The first was a 99 MGF but the engine had been replaced around 2007 by a main MG dealer and the second was my 04 Freelander. I used and MLS gasket first time and Elastomer on the Freelander, so far both still going fine. :)
Click to expand...

There appears to be differing views on whether an MLS HG should be fitted when the liners are less than 3 thou above the block surface and that an Elastomer (e.g. Payen BW750) should be fitted instead. However, according to a recent exchange of e-mails with JLR the following was provided: -

On 3 Aug 2016, at 16:39, [email protected] wrote:

Dear Mr
I write in response to my last email on 25/07/16, I have spoken with Land Rover Technicians and have been advised the following information;
cleardot.gif

Fitting a multi layer cylinder head gasket to the vehicle would be the correct procedure, as the cylinder liners are stated as being 'level with the block'.
Cylinder liner position is the distance that the cylinder liner protrudes above, or is below the surface of the engine block. Liners can be level with or up to 0.075mm (0.003in) above the surface of the engine block. If the liners have dropped below the engine block surface, the engine must be renewed.
I hope this answer's your enquiry,
Please do not hesitate to contact me on my direct dial below
--
Harriet Moore
Case Manager
UK Customer Relationship Centre
T: +44 (0) 1926 691 920
OfaGrHPlawsuQPtTYPlu2XkJRCrzJtHOGv2OSrFHsvJ6km-xYenAYwOsmmC-X18PrWn7LzA6AM--8oIU05Ifg6GD=s0-d-e1-ft

Jaguar Land Rover, Abbey Road, Whitley, CV3 4LF

VIEWS APPRECIATED................
 
AFS1 said:
There appears to be differing views on whether an MLS HG should be fitted when the liners are less than 3 thou above the block surface and that an Elastomer (e.g. Payen BW750) should be fitted instead. However, according to a recent exchange of e-mails with JLR the following was provided: -

On 3 Aug 2016, at 16:39, [email protected] wrote:

Dear Mr
I write in response to my last email on 25/07/16, I have spoken with Land Rover Technicians and have been advised the following information;
cleardot.gif

Fitting a multi layer cylinder head gasket to the vehicle would be the correct procedure, as the cylinder liners are stated as being 'level with the block'.
Cylinder liner position is the distance that the cylinder liner protrudes above, or is below the surface of the engine block. Liners can be level with or up to 0.075mm (0.003in) above the surface of the engine block. If the liners have dropped below the engine block surface, the engine must be renewed.
I hope this answer's your enquiry,
Please do not hesitate to contact me on my direct dial below
--
Harriet Moore
Case Manager
UK Customer Relationship Centre
T: +44 (0) 1926 691 920
OfaGrHPlawsuQPtTYPlu2XkJRCrzJtHOGv2OSrFHsvJ6km-xYenAYwOsmmC-X18PrWn7LzA6AM--8oIU05Ifg6GD=s0-d-e1-ft

Jaguar Land Rover, Abbey Road, Whitley, CV3 4LF

VIEWS APPRECIATED................
Click to expand...
This pretty well confirms my suspicions that the MLS is fine when the liners are level with the block. I'm certain some will disagree and in certain instances they may be correct but as my K series is up for sale and I have no plans to ever buy another I hope I don't need to worry about it any longer.
 
Alibro said:
This pretty well confirms my suspicions that the MLS is fine when the liners are level with the block. I'm certain some will disagree and in certain instances they may be correct but as my K series is up for sale and I have no plans to ever buy another I hope I don't need to worry about it any longer.
Click to expand...
Having changed many many K series HGs over the years I have to disagree to some of the above.

I've found that although the liners are above the block for the MLS gasket to work correctly, this isn't the only factor that is important.
Liner heights in relation to each other is just as important for a long term fix on these engines.
If for instance you have a block where all lines are uneven but all above the block, then in my experience, it's better to use the latest Payen elastopolymer gasket.
The is especially true where two adjacent liners have a difference of 2 thou or more between them. So if the liners measure the number or thou as these: 0-3-2-1 then I would use an elasto gasket. The reason behind this is simple. The MLS gasket doesn't appear to be able to seal effectively when clamped between uneven liners.
So I use a 1 thou rule on the MLS. This basically means that if two adjacent liners are more then 1 thou different from each other, I use the elastopolymer as it's more likely to last than the MLS gasket.
 
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There were slight diffrences in thevliner heights of our MGTF I did 12 months ago. Thats porbably why it need doing again. I think I will use the elastomer one next time.
 
I had already bought the MLS kit for my MGF due to being new to it all and almost two years later it is still going strong. Admittedly not many miles but plenty of heat cycles. I still suspect the mechanic doing the work is a bigger factor in early failures than the gasket being used.
 
Alibro said:
I had already bought the MLS kit for my MGF due to being new to it all and almost two years later it is still going strong. Admittedly not many miles but plenty of heat cycles. I still suspect the mechanic doing the work is a bigger factor in early failures than the gasket being used.
Click to expand...

That is also true.
However I have also had a few MLS gaskets fail shortly after replacement. These were engines where the liner heights were as I described earlier.
Incidentally, I haven't had a HG failure with the latest Payen elastopolymer gasket, that I know of.
 
I've always said, done right it should last 40 - 50k, which in many cases is the life of the car. Done badly you'll be lucky to get 10k.
 
Coming from an MG background, my 2p worth (115k miles, no HGF - and many miles in another MGF race car (over 100k miles on the clock), plus an old "bubble" Rover 200):

Thre has been much hype regarding the MLS, but I would believe the K-series tuning guys who say that where liners are flush with the block face, the MLS is not suitable for use due to the weak sealing of the fire rings. The Payen BW750 will be the gasket that I'll be using.

According to Rover Powertrain, one of the key problems is water flow through the bypass circuit when the engine coolant is still cool and the thermostat has yet to open. If too much engine speed is used (if you drive a sports car for example - or drive it like a sports car, or perhaps a heavy car that needs more revs to get moving), the bypass pipes collapse leading to the water pump cavitating and reducing the overall flow rate.

The PRT is a partial solution because it opens the thermostat under water pressure. But in my experience, so long as you don't rev the nuts off the 1.8 K until properly warmed through, it'll take care of you. :)

I race and track my MGFs regularly, so I don't keep them in cotton wool - but have mechanical sympathy until there is oil temperature showing. Unfortunately, the Freelander doesn't have an oil temperature gauge! :(
 
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rob_bell said:
Coming from an MG background, my 2p worth (115k miles, no HGF - and many miles in another MGF race car, plus an old "bubble" Rover 200):

Much hype regarding the MLS, but I would believe the K-series tuning guys who say that liners that are flush with the block face are not suitable for MLS use due to the weak sealing of the fire rings. The Payen BW750 will be what I'll be using.

According to Rover Powertrain, one of the key problems is water flow through the bypass circuit when the engine coolant is still cool and the thermostat has yet to open. If to much engine speed is used (if you drive a sports car for example, or perhaps a heavy car that needs more revs to get moving), the bypass pipes collapse leading to the water pump cavitating and reducing the overall flow rate.

The PRT is a partial solution because it opens the thermostat under water pressure. But so long as you don't rev the nuts off the 1.8 K until properly run through, it'll take care of you. :)

I race and track my MGFs regularly, so I don't keep them in cotton wool - but have mechanical sympathy until there is oil temperature showing. Unfortunately, the Freelander doesn't have an oil temperature gauge! :(
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115k without HGF is not the norm unfortunately so you have either been very lucky or your mechanical sympathy has paid dividends. Lots of people over the years have debated the cause of HGF on K series engines here and elsewhere but fact remains the failure rate is many times worse than other engines. It has good points too and it is true that other makes of car have major issues too but the K series disaster was so bad many people think it was responsible for the death of MG/Rover.
Sadly it is not a problem I have now having sold my MGF and both k series Freelanders. I say sadly because I liked the cars and their engines. Now I have to listen to the rattle of diesel. :mad:
 
Most MGFs HGS fail before 50K miles. My VVC HG went at 42K. I fully expect the elastopolymer replacement to outlast the car.
 
Hi chaps,

I don't think anyone is arguing that 1.8 K-series has a "bit of a gasket consumption" problem :) But the good news is that the causal problem(s) has/have been identified (and there are plenty of compounding factors in addition). Like a number of other British Head gasket munchers, the owners have been left with the problem to sort out. That's hardly ideal, and I do agree, K-series head gasket failures were one of the contributing factors to the collapse of MG Rover.

I was predictably pleased to read an interview in one of the MG mags recently with one of the Rover Powertrain engineers. The key problem underlying head gasket failure from his opinion is as mentioned above: collapse of the bypass coolant flow during warm up. I have always - and largely unintentionally - kept rpm below 3-4k rpm while the engine was cold and, because the MG's roof is invariable put down when I am driving, the heater is left on, which co-incidentally also improves the bypass flow due to the coolant system design on the MGF! I'd advise a similar approach in the Freelander, but we don't have the same useful oil-temperature gauge to inform us as to when it is safe to give the engine the beans. :)
 
The happy consequence for eejits like ourselves is K series Freelanders are cheap to buy and relatively easy to fix. If you look at the number of threads on here about TD4's running badly because of dodgy injectors they outnumber the HGF threads by many times. And provided you catch it early, it is way cheaper to fix a head gasket than it is to get your injectors refurbed.
 
As an owner of a 2.0CDTi MG ZTT with the same M47R engine, I know exactly what you mean... (best forget about the MAF and fuel pump problems too! Ah, the fun and games... ;) LOL)

Runs really well know with a 160 remap mind! :D
 
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